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notredameguy10 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

And again. Those classifications are not fluff based. They are not meant to accurately depict what the units are. They are to indicate the type of movement and abilities during gameplay. Riptides and Wraithknights are fast, agile, front line fighters; aka monsters creatures. Walker vehicles are slow, lumbering entities like dreadnoughts, and thus the rules reflect that.

So why are Maulerfiends walkers then? They're fast, agile, front line fighters - not slow or lumbering - yet they are walkers and die in a few hits from some chump with an autocannon while ol' Riptide over here just won't die.

There really is no rhyme or reason to the split other than GW thinks MCs rules are cooler/better and so they give their favourite armies MCs, even when they should be walkers.

Is the thing just one big living creature? (Maulerfiend, Helbrute, Heldrake)
>MC

Is it just a giant suit of armour, gundam-style? (Dreadnoughts, Riptide, WK, IK)
>Walker

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

I can't say that WK or Riptide is a cheese. Both can be killed in just one (maybe two) shooting phases.

If you cannot kill them - just ignore it and score Maelstorm, kill guys you can kill and play tactically.
7E is not about "Kill'em all!".

 OneEyedALice wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

I can't say that WK or Riptide is a cheese. Both can be killed in just one (maybe two) shooting phases.

If you cannot kill them - just ignore it and score Maelstorm, kill guys you can kill and play tactically.
7E is not about "Kill'em all!".

Which is a funnny thing to say, given that almost all of the games I've played have resulted in someone getting tabled before T5. And many games I have witnessed but not played...

This edition is way more about tabling than previous editions.

The point here is that no army should have a unit that is this tough. Every unit has their proper use and employment and weaknesses. Whats the Riptides? Melee? Well it has a jump pack to avoid that, its super tough with a lot of wounds and the best armor and invul save in the game, all for something thats about the cost of a landraider. Now compare those two units in your mind for a second. Landraiders are tough, but they can be killed, easily. Or at least immobilized or stunned. I think the real answer is that games workshop made the Riptide the way it is to boost the sales of the model. So everyone would say, "Oh man I want that model for an ally in my army," well thats bull crap and its effectively destroying the game.

 Crimson Willy wrote:
The point here is that no army should have a unit that is this tough. Every unit has their proper use and employment and weaknesses. Whats the Riptides? Melee? Well it has a jump pack to avoid that, its super tough with a lot of wounds and the best armor and invul save in the game, all for something thats about the cost of a landraider. Now compare those two units in your mind for a second. Landraiders are tough, but they can be killed, easily. Or at least immobilized or stunned. I think the real answer is that games workshop made the Riptide the way it is to boost the sales of the model. So everyone would say, "Oh man I want that model for an ally in my army," well thats bull crap and its effectively destroying the game.

Yeah, Riptide barely can be catched by 6"-moving units.
But you got bikes, you got jetbikes and you even got jumppacks.

And, yeah, it's completely not cool to compare a good unit with a useless kal like Land Raider, huh.

2Selym
I've played unkillable deathstars of SM, which barely can be wounded by the most of the armies, not even saying about save-throws and FnP.
I've played Skitarii and Dark Eldars, which are dying hella easily.

Almost no any 0-20 loses. No one can kill thing that he cannot target.
Hide units behind losblocks. Hide them in reserves. Hide them in close combat.

It's like some people on Dakka think all players are magicians...

Riptides are so tough! My 2 gun drones only held it in close combat for 2 turns! What a waste of units that come for free!!!!

And also, have you guys seen wraithstars? Have you guys seen wolfstars? How can they get 2+/3++ and FnP, and toughness 5 to boot? And they are immune to ALL shooting, beastly in CC, and have the potential to charge turn 1. And these guys eat WK/IK/ritpides way more often in games I've seen.

And another thing, riptides are not fearless, neither are they LD10. Tau have no psychic defence other than the artifact. There are ways to kill it/hold it/ make it ineffective. Nobody asked you to run a squad of barefooted marines to charge against it. There are ways to fight an opponent, and sure, riptides are tough, but they have more weaknesses than many other things out there right now. Trust me, there are things that would make you rather face 3 riptides than them.

bleak wrote:
Riptides are so tough! My 2 gun drones only held it in close combat for 2 turns! What a waste of units that come for free!!!!

And also, have you guys seen wraithstars? Have you guys seen wolfstars? How can they get 2+/3++ and FnP, and toughness 5 to boot? And they are immune to ALL shooting, beastly in CC, and have the potential to charge turn 1. And these guys eat WK/IK/ritpides way more often in games I've seen.

And another thing, riptides are not fearless, neither are they LD10. Tau have no psychic defence other than the artifact. There are ways to kill it/hold it/ make it ineffective. Nobody asked you to run a squad of barefooted marines to charge against it. There are ways to fight an opponent, and sure, riptides are tough, but they have more weaknesses than many other things out there right now. Trust me, there are things that would make you rather face 3 riptides than them.

Again, pointing your finger at other cheese units or combinations still means no argument regarding why a giant mechanical robot with a humanoid pilot is currently a "monstruous creature" ingame. The only thing you're telling me is that you simply do not want to part ways with your cheese unit.

Regarding Mauler/Forgefiends and Heldrakes, I'm fine with them having vehicle rules. They're supposed to be a mix of vehicle and daemon (in the case of the Heldrake, with a mutated marine pilot still inside), but still mostly mechanic, so it's not a problem that they are vehicles with daemon special rules.

Any player that allows his Riptide to be caught in close combat by anything that moves 6" deserves to lose, and then have his army confiscated.

And, as Korinov said, excusing the Riptide by saying that X/Y/Z is also cheesy only shows that you are so dependant on that that you can't bare it being brought in line.

I'm more or less just using the Maulerfiend as an example as to why there isn't a fluff reason for Riptides being MCs compared to others being Walkers. I'm not saying though should be (though it would be nice )

 OneEyedALice wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

I can't say that WK or Riptide is a cheese. Both can be killed in just one (maybe two) shooting phases.

If you cannot kill them - just ignore it and score Maelstorm, kill guys you can kill and play tactically.
7E is not about "Kill'em all!".

7e allows 5 wraithknights in a legal battle forged army sir. Go ahead. Ignore them all. See what happens. :p

Whell you could try to completely ignore them, and their presence on the board and their damage output. The "you can always ignore op unit x" must be one of the weakest arguments out there. Especially if the unit in question is faster then average or has good ranged weapons. Those knights and riptides just happen to have both.

Ok, so you guys think it should be brought in line, so giving it vehicles mechanic. Maybe same points, at 12/12/11. And maybe 5HP. It still gets its nova charge, giving it a 3++. It is a vehicle that can JSJ. And now that nothing but strength 6 can hurt it, do you know how insane that would be?

You guys think its OP because you guys do not play enough variety, don't see enough, don't understand how to play maelstrom, or just play 40k to try to table opponents. Have you guys seen hemlock wraithfighters? Heck, even a random shot from a deathjester can destroy it just by moving it out the board. If its a weak argument "to ignore unit x", then you guys don't know tactics and strategy, which some of us gave already. So you can either cry cheese, or just outplay your opponent, and one of which has a better experience for both players.

bleak wrote:
Ok, so you guys think it should be brought in line, so giving it vehicles mechanic. Maybe same points, at 12/12/11. And maybe 5HP. It still gets its nova charge, giving it a 3++. It is a vehicle that can JSJ. And now that nothing but strength 6 can hurt it, do you know how insane that would be?

You guys think its OP because you guys do not play enough variety, don't see enough, don't understand how to play maelstrom, or just play 40k to try to table opponents. Have you guys seen hemlock wraithfighters? Heck, even a random shot from a deathjester can destroy it just by moving it out the board. If its a weak argument "to ignore unit x", then you guys don't know tactics and strategy, which some of us gave already. So you can either cry cheese, or just outplay your opponent, and one of which has a better experience for both players.

Yes thank you.I find it hilarious that people actually think making it a walker with an armor value would make it easier to kill...

How about this:
225 pts base (no longer has Jet Pack, Deep Strike)
WS1 BS3 S5 AV 11/11/10 HP4 I1 A1, 5++

Nova Reactor: Primary and secondary weapons only. Failure: Take a penetrating hit at AP1 with no saves of any kind allowed.

Ion Accelerator: S7 AP4 Heavy 4, Overcharge S8 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Gets Hot, Nova-Charge S9 AP2 Ordnance 1 Large Blast Gets Hot

Shielded Missile Drones: Remove.

Support System options: Remove.

At the end of any turn in which the Riptide uses its Nova Reactor, it may not charge or strike blows in close combat, and counts as WS0 until the controlling player's next Movement Phase.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
7e allows 5 wraithknights in a legal battle forged army sir. Go ahead. Ignore them all. See what happens. :p

Nothing happens, huh.
Even 5 wraithknigts can barely kill 9 units which can move up to 48" per turn and two Vector Dancer flyers with 2 D-cannons, huh.

Or 12 rhinos with at least one grav-cannon in each of them. And I remind you that Skyhammer Anihilation Force can kill two WK per turn, huh.

jade_angel wrote:
How about this:
225 pts base (no longer has Jet Pack, Deep Strike)
WS1 BS3 S5 AV 11/11/10 HP4 I1 A1, 5++

Nova Reactor: Primary and secondary weapons only. Failure: Take a penetrating hit at AP1 with no saves of any kind allowed.

Ion Accelerator: S7 AP4 Heavy 4, Overcharge S8 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Gets Hot, Nova-Charge S9 AP2 Ordnance 1 Large Blast Gets Hot

Shielded Missile Drones: Remove.

Support System options: Remove.

At the end of any turn in which the Riptide uses its Nova Reactor, it may not charge or strike blows in close combat, and counts as WS0 until the controlling player's next Movement Phase.

might as well just delete the unit entry at this point

Honestly, I was being a little irritably snarky with that one. No suggestion seems to ever be good enough: nerf it as an MC, everyone says it should be a walker. Propose reasonable walker rules, that's insanely strong. So, here's an attempt at both - it's a walker, it moves like a Dreadnought, the nova reactor is very risky to use, the ion accelerator is nerfed, no more Interceptor or Skyfire, and it's a lot less durable (about equal to two Penitent Engines though they're easier to explode and would have 6 HP between them, and they have a 6++ instead of 5++).

But yes, at 225 pts, that would be *FAR* too weak.

Out of curiosity, what do people think of the Ghostkeel? OP? Its cover shenanigans are mad nasty, but if you can get past them, T5 W4 Sv 3+ isn't *that* hard to kill, as Marine players can attest (how fast can you lose four bikes?)

jade_angel wrote:
Honestly, I was being a little irritably snarky with that one. No suggestion seems to ever be good enough: nerf it as an MC, everyone says it should be a walker. Propose reasonable walker rules, that's insanely strong. So, here's an attempt at both - it's a walker, it moves like a Dreadnought, the nova reactor is very risky to use, the ion accelerator is nerfed, no more Interceptor or Skyfire, and it's a lot less durable (about equal to two Penitent Engines though they're easier to explode and would have 6 HP between them, and they have a 6++ instead of 5++).

But yes, at 225 pts, that would be *FAR* too weak.

Out of curiosity, what do people think of the Ghostkeel? OP? Its cover shenanigans are mad nasty, but if you can get past them, T5 W4 Sv 3+ isn't *that* hard to kill, as Marine players can attest (how fast can you lose four bikes?)

Riptide could be 200 base. Like most high toughness/low save MC's, grav weapons are its downfall. Furthermore, charging a riptide with a decent CC unit could kill it, while charging a riptide with a large unit of weaker models could tie it up for a game and make it useless.

 McNinja wrote:

bleak wrote:
Ok, so you guys think it should be brought in line, so giving it vehicles mechanic. Maybe same points, at 12/12/11. And maybe 5HP. It still gets its nova charge, giving it a 3++. It is a vehicle that can JSJ. And now that nothing but strength 6 can hurt it, do you know how insane that would be?

You guys think its OP because you guys do not play enough variety, don't see enough, don't understand how to play maelstrom, or just play 40k to try to table opponents. Have you guys seen hemlock wraithfighters? Heck, even a random shot from a deathjester can destroy it just by moving it out the board. If its a weak argument "to ignore unit x", then you guys don't know tactics and strategy, which some of us gave already. So you can either cry cheese, or just outplay your opponent, and one of which has a better experience for both players.

Yes thank you.I find it hilarious that people actually think making it a walker with an armor value would make it easier to kill...

First, if it were made a vehicle, it would likely have 3HP, perhaps 4HP tops (Land Raider level). That's how vehicles work (which could use some revamping for sure, but it's how they work at the moment).

Second, the 3++ save would probably need a tone down. Personally I would seriously limit invulnerable saves, the game has gone completely nuts in that regard. Only Terminators with Storm Shield and perhaps ultimate daemonic combinations should be able to reach 3++. The Riptide could do perfectly with a 4++.

And yes, it would be easier to kill, because a single Lascannon or Melta shot can make you asplode. Unlike MCs, where you need to drop the wounds one by one. "You can still kill it with Psychic Shriek" is not an argument, because first I need to successfully cast the power, then it may be dispelled, and then the Tau player has to do his/her leadership test. Trust me, in average, from all the times I've tried to roll Psychic Shriek, perhaps one third of the time I've managed to kill something, and you don't usually kill much anyway.

Lastly, I'll just ignore the bolded "L2P noob" part, as from the start I knew fully well we'd reach that point.

I'd actually like to see the defensive nova-charge do something different and interesting. What if instead of upping the Invuln save it made the model's armor save re-rollable?

Instead of just making it tough model against all weapons, you have the choice to make it near-immune to AP3+, but it leaves a chink in the armor to be exploited.

raverrn wrote:
I'd actually like to see the defensive nova-charge do something different and interesting. What if instead of upping the Invuln save it made the model's armor save re-rollable?

Instead of just making it tough model against all weapons, you have the choice to make it near-immune to AP3+, but it leaves a chink in the armor to be exploited.

How about instead of an invul save (if its a walker) it grants it the ability to ignore crew shaken and crew stunned results, just like a daemon possessed vehicle?

raverrn wrote:
I'd actually like to see the defensive nova-charge do something different and interesting. What if instead of upping the Invuln save it made the model's armor save re-rollable?

Instead of just making it tough model against all weapons, you have the choice to make it near-immune to AP3+, but it leaves a chink in the armor to be exploited.

I'd like to see Defensive Nova-Reactor removed entirely.

Offensive options only, and each option has a different chance to fail rather than a flat "It goes off on this roll".