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It's been what, 4 days since this thread started?

I still see no mythical IG list that wins tournaments and is unkillable.

Unless the list is actually posted so we can discuss it, I think this thread needs locking now.

 Jancoran wrote:

YesI am prety familiar with the term. But Im not the one questioning the right to have an opinion. THAT person can doubt freely butI dont owe them to be more than honest. But I have delivered, offering you an easy way to contact people who would know. So di it if you care. . And if you dont, good.

Not QUITe. To be more accurate the PLAYER may or may not lose more often than they win. You think its the list? The codex? And not at all the guy in the mirror?

No. Codex's don't make you lose. That's just a whiny crutch.

First, the space bar man, it's your friend, use it.

With that out of the way... are you daft? Nobody is calling your opinion in to question here. I'm asking for you to present evidence to support the claims you are making: I.E. You won two tournaments this weekend with Chaos Space Marines and Sisters of Battle.

You haven't offered anything but an alias on the internet that nobody can verify isn't actually you masquerading as said person. I gave you the store owner's *actual* name, my *actual* name, and *actual* location of the gaming store (including city/state) so that anyone who wishes to verify the veracity of my assertions can do so. You've not done anything even remotely close to that, which is exactly my point.

As for your assertion that the player is to blame entirely, and not the internal balance of the game we're playing and the codexes doesn't have a hand in how often an army (or player) wins or loses is downright laughable and as I said, makes you look like a colossal idiot. Bear in mind, I'm not saying you are an idiot, but you are starting to resemble one quite strongly with your continued postings here.

With that said, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread, I'd love to see what other lovely drivel you're prepared to spout.

In closing:



Take it easy, buttercup.

-Red__Thirst-



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

It is a shame you choose to condescend again. I'm not your kiddo.

That aside, I just don't owe it to you. I'm sorry. I can share ideas and you can choose what to do next. I'm not the one who needs the help. instead of considering possibilities, you try to make it about me. but it isn't. Never was. This was about a Codex you say is decrepit and that causes you great struggle.

I dont think it's the codex. Like all things, it's whats being done WITH IT, and while I am on record s saying an update would be nice, I find the cries of poverty to be nothing more than sour grapes.

So if you're struggling, I really hope that turns around for you. Until then, just play something else I guess.

Out of my entire post, you choose

Let's try again kiddo.

to quote? Right.... Moving on.

I'm not condescending, if you're inferring that, then I suggest you go take a breath of fresh air away from the keyboard. I'm trying to be light-hearted about how utterly ludicrous your assertions are there, sparky. Also, your abject failure and refusal to provide evidence to back up and support the claims you're making.

The current AM/IG codex is fun, and fluffy, and I do very well with it all things considered. It's nowhere near as powerful as more recent codexes are however. Specifically Eldar and Tau. I can beat both of these armies, but the odds of me actually doing it consistently and without a lot of luck (both good for me and bad for my opponent) is slim to none. This is a statement born out of *DOZENS* of games I've played against both Eldar, and Tau. I'm not struggling, I'm working with what I'm given, which is only about 1/3 to 1/2 as many viable options as any other modern codex out there (Post-newschool Necrons being the metric I use for 'modern' codex).

I don't need or want to play something else. I enjoy my Vostroyans and the gaming atmosphere I play in now, I win more than I lose. That being said, I have played in tournaments, ranging from small events (some of which I have run as the organizer) all the way up to massive 80+ person tournaments and I can say, emphatically, that the Guard are not viable as a solo codex at present, and are of only middling value as an allied option/choice. You're free to disagree with me if you wish, but one of us has the benefit of both conventional wisdom and common sense, and the other is you.

Looking forward to more stellar posts from you soon there, snowflake. Please keep 'em coming and be sure to address the actual point I'm making instead of claiming I'm decrying your opinion (which anyone reading along here will tell you: I'm not).

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Blacksails wrote:
Jancoran, do you sincerely believe the IG codex is on the same power level as Eldar, Crons, and Marines (and others I missed)?

No. I don't think so. I think that there's only ever one #1, one #2 and so on.

That's not the entire tale though because they are all really being compared on their "win button" modes. So in other words if i take a THEORETICALLY devastating version of one of them and fight 16 different codex's with it, what will be my result, given the same Generals in every test?

So it isn't enough to ask whether the Codex is on the same power level. That question itself is too simplistic to really appreciate what can be done with them despite the RELATIVE differences. And the other discussion we cant possibly have is "Okay if there is a number one, how far apart REALLY is that from #2". Because the degree matters.

So my opinion is better stated as "I do not feel the deviation between the Astra Militarum Codex and its performance in the same capable Generals hands is as great as is being advertised here o nthis thread. That's different than asking me if one is better than the other because there will always be a "better" one That's a statistical given. The Deviation just isn't to the extent some here feel it is.

But lets pretend that it WAS a bigger deviation than i think it is. Lets indulge. in that world, where that's true, you cannot argue with the wins IG plyers are getting even though they are fewer according to those Generals. So the question becomes: if ou are outnumbered and out muscled, can you strategically compenate? Does the Codex ALLOW you to?

If the nswer is yes, then the deviation wasnt s far s YOU thought it was. If the Answer is no, then you might have a point.

Im tired so I feel myself caring less right now. But thats my answer. It is not the number one codex. Neither re Chaos Marines. neither Are Adepta Sororitas. And yet I win with them. Because I make the strategic and tactical decisions required of me to win. And I dont cry and whine about how hard I have it. I find a way. and when I have done that, I then share it. I share the successful usage of a thing some might revile and you just have to ponder it instead of trying to figure out why it doesnt work. Figure out how it could. Figure out WHEN it could. Figure it out. Its a puzzle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Izural wrote:
It's been what, 4 days since this thread started?

I still see no mythical IG list that wins tournaments and is unkillable.

Unless the list is actually posted so we can discuss it, I think this thread needs locking now.

There is no such list. We toldya that much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Nobody is calling your opinion in to question here. I'm asking for you to present evidence to support the claims you are making: I.E. You won two tournaments this weekend with Chaos Space Marines and Sisters of Battle.

You haven't offered anything but an alias on the internet that nobody can verify isn't actually you masquerading as said person.

As for your assertion that the player is to blame entirely...

I'm not condescending, if you're inferring that, then I suggest you go take a breath of fresh air away from the keyboard.

I don't need or want to play something else. I enjoy my Vostroyans and the gaming atmosphere I play in now,

Right. Now you think its some elaborate hoax just to fool you. Lol. Hey man: it;s your world.

Im glad you like your Vostroyans. Keep playing them. In whatever way brings you victories. As i do.

 Jancoran wrote:

No. I don't think so. I think that there's only ever one #1, one #2 and so on.

That's not the entire tale though because they are all really being compared on their "win button" modes. So in other words if i take a THEORETICALLY devastating version of one of them and fight 16 different codex's with it, what will be my result, given the same Generals in every test?

So it isn't enough to ask whether the Codex is on the same power level. That question itself is too simplistic to really appreciate what can be done with them despite the RELATIVE differences. And the other discussion we cant possibly have is "Okay if there is a number one, how far apart REALLY is that from #2". Because the degree matters.

So my opinion is better stated as "I do not feel the deviation between the Astra Militarum Codex and its performance in the same capable Generals hands is as great as is being advertised here o nthis thread. That's different than asking me if one is better than the other because there will always be a "better" one That's a statistical given. The Deviation just isn't to the extent some here feel it is.

But lets pretend that it WAS a bigger deviation than i think it is. Lets indulge. in that world, where that's true, you cannot argue with the wins IG plyers are getting even though they are fewer according to those Generals. So the question becomes: if ou are outnumbered and out muscled, can you strategically compenate? Does the Codex ALLOW you to?

If the nswer is yes, then the deviation wasnt s far s YOU thought it was. If the Answer is no, then you might have a point.

Im tired so I feel myself caring less right now. But thats my answer. It is not the number one codex. Neither re Chaos Marines. neither Are Adepta Sororitas. And yet I win with them. Because I make the strategic and tactical decisions required of me to win. And I dont cry and whine about how hard I have it. I find a way. and when I have done that, I then share it. I share the successful usage of a thing some might revile and you just have to ponder it instead of trying to figure out why it doesnt work. Figure out how it could. Figure out WHEN it could. Figure it out. Its a puzzle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Izural wrote:
It's been what, 4 days since this thread started?

I still see no mythical IG list that wins tournaments and is unkillable.

Unless the list is actually posted so we can discuss it, I think this thread needs locking now.

There is no such list. We toldya that much.

The only puzzle I see here is in the entire post above, where you didn't do anything to prove the claim that you have won any tournament with Chaos Space Marines, or Sisters of Battle. You can't make the claim, then ignore when someone asks for verification/proof that the claim is genuine.
That makes you look like a charlatan and a liar. You saying "it doesn't matter" only adds proverbial fuel to the fire you're now standing in also.

You delving off into the semantics of how vast or narrow the gulf between tiers of codexes are is a strawman that is also rapidly getting burned up in the proverbial fire you've started as well here. Nobody cares what your opinion on the AM/IG codex is. That's yours and yours alone to have, hold, treasure and keep to your heart's desire. The degree in which the codex is weaker or stronger than any other codex is quite frankly irrelevant. The fact remains that the Astra Militarium/Imperial Guard are woefully underpowered when compared to an army like Necrons, or the new Tau, or Eldar, or Space Marines. The things we're supposed to be 'good' at, we're only mediocre at best. Our vehicles, while thickly armored, are amazingly easy to remove because of Haywire, the Gauss/glancing rule, Rending, lance weapons, and just straight up charging in melee and punching the back armor out with melta bombs, Krak grenades, or even power armored fisticuffs. It's not hard to strip three hull points off of a Leman Russ. I know, I've done it in a single shooting phase with one unit on more than one occasion.

It seems we've tuckered you out, so you go get a nap and once you've rested come back and keep trying there big guy. Hopefully you'll be able to give us more than an online alias to prove your statements about your mythical tournament wins this weekend. I'd also love to know the number of players at these tournaments. Were they small affairs? Large? Ten participants? Twenty? Fifty? I'm genuinely curious.

More to come I'm sure. Take it easy there, ole buddy, ole pal.

-Red__Thirst-

It doesn't matter that you can win or not with this codex, or any other for that matter. What matters is that the codex is underpowered, and players who play IG are rightfully disappointed and would like it not to be that way.

Its that simple.

Further, people aren't crying or whining. You might be taken more seriously if you didn't paint other people with such incorrect broad strokes.

I've been playing Guard way back in the mist of time, 2nd edition to be correct. The only time and I mean ONLY time guard were nigh unstoppable was during 5th, and that was due to the leaf blower list.
Guard have and will always be bottom tier (that's 20 years of playing them). They are bad, in fact I'll go to the point of saying they are one of the worst armys ever. Most of what is in the codex sucks, and in every codex they sucked. I'd rate Sisters higher than the guard and they only have one list build.
In summery. Yes the Guard can win but only if its a fluffy game or your opponent is relay bad.

Names, places and pics or it didn't happen Jancoran. You know the rules of the internet

 Jancoran wrote:

Right. Now you think its some elaborate hoax just to fool you. Lol. Hey man: it;s your world.

Im glad you like your Vostroyans. Keep playing them. In whatever way brings you victories. As i do.

I love how you can't seem to quote my entire post but choose to cherry pick out only a few words and/or sentences. How about you address my points instead of deflecting and being misleading. I'm not saying you're trying to fool *me*, I'm saying you have made a public statement and claim on a public forum and expect people to take you at your word when, in fact, you need to prove those claims with evidence. That's on you there spark-plug. Not us. Your refusal to do so just makes you look like a liar and/or an idiot.

I will keep playing my Vostroyans. They're quite entertaining and the manliest I.G. out there. Catachans only wish they could grow a mustache like we can.

Looking forward to seeing more posts from you. You have my *undivided* attention, rest assured.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Looking forward to seeing more posts from you. You have my *undivided* attention, rest assured.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

No use to try and change his mind there. He calls almost everything forgeworld OP to even though there were enough valid arguments against that..

You can't do jack gak against top tier codexes unless it's stupid "Hammer your face on a brick wall" luck.

 Jancoran wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
The individual records of tournament players are moot, they are statistically negligible when weighed against the sum total of games player with Imperial Guard armies.

The Imperial Guard codex is considered underpowered because it loses more than it wins. Like all averages some people are on the top side of that while others are on the bottom side.

We have our good units, we have our bad units. Other armies have better. IG fall short because our best units best combat a type of army and units that just aren't used as much in this edition.

Not QUITe. To be more accurate the PLAYER may or may not lose more often than they win. You think its the list? The codex? And not at all the guy in the mirror?

No. Codex's don't make you lose. That's just a whiny crutch.

You're being pedantic. Of course when I say "it loses" I mean the player using it. An inanimate book cannot play games.

I said that IG armies are considered underpowered because they lose more than they win. I'm merely speaking as a matter of community perception based on performance statistics.

I said that some players do better than others. I never said I think its the codex's fault.

An opinion I share with others is that this codex is predisposed to a style of game play that is not as successful because what it does best against is not that common in this edition. Implicitly this means if some people are doing well, it is likely that they are breaking from convention to buck the trend or are really lucky. This predisposition is once again not a judgement against the book in so much as an analysis of the most common meta.

What you seem to be saying is that the players suck not the book. That's fair enough but not really the question the OP posted. "Why do some people think that the AM codex is underpowered?" That is a question of our perception on the communities perception and not on IF it actually is or isn't underpowered. You're entitled to your opinion but by virtue of your stance that the codex isn't underpowered you place yourself outside that level of empathetic thought needed to discuss the actual topic.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:


No use to try and change his mind there. He calls almost everything forgeworld OP to even though there were enough valid arguments against that..

You can't do jack gak against top tier codexes unless it's stupid "Hammer your face on a brick wall" luck.

Oh believe me, I don't intend to, nor do I think I can, change his mind. I'm just trying to get him to back up the claim he made a page or so ago about being all boss and winning two tournaments with a Chaos Space Marine list, and then Sisters of Battle the next day.

I'd *LOVE* to know some info on this so I can see what kind of metrics we're working with here.

List size, number of players participating, detailed lists that were used by our lovable little Jancoran here, what lists he fought (in detail, as in army composition), what house rules were in place if any, the Missions played and the objectives for those missions (Were they custom?), the location of the tournament, the name of the location, the store's or location owner's name, and the Tournament Organizer's name if it's not the same person as the owner.

It's not hard to offer evidence to back up a claim. I did it for two separate claims last page rather easily in less than 5 minutes. The fact that good ole Jancoran refuses to do so says a lot about him and his claims though, I reckon.

Thoughts to ponder.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

 Jancoran wrote:

YesI am prety familiar with the term. But Im not the one questioning the right to have an opinion.

Eh?

What on earth are you talking about?

 Jancoran wrote:
But I have delivered, offering you an easy way to contact people who would know.

I think I missed that. What's this easy way to contact people you offered?

Vipoid,

Jancoran edited a post of his on the previous page (#8) to include some information to back up the veracity of his claims. It was laughably and woefully lacking in actual information needed to definitively prove any of his assertions or speak to anyone folks could prove were not in fact Jancoran himself posing as this 'other person'.

Rather comical, really.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Vipoid,

Jancoran edited a post of his on the previous page (#8) to include some information to back up the veracity of his claims. It was laughably and woefully lacking in actual information needed to definitively prove any of his assertions or speak to anyone folks could prove were not in fact Jancoran himself posing as this 'other person'.

Rather comical, really.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Ah, I'd missed that. Thanks.

You're quite welcome. Hopefully he will finally own up to the claims he's made or continue to (very poorly) attempt to deflect the conversation in even more entertaining nonsensical directions.

I'm waiting with baited breath here. Too bad he's logged off.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I'm wondering why don't you just ignore him? He's obviously unable to keep the debate on a level, so why bother?

 Hawky wrote:
I'm wondering why don't you just ignore him? He's obviously unable to keep the debate on a level, so why bother?

Because if nobody calls him on his stupid and/or ignorant behavior, then he'll never stop being stupid/ignorant.

At the very least I can be thankful I'm not him, nor suffering from whatever cognitive disorder he seems to be suffering from.

C'est la vie.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

One change I really wish GW would make for Guard to help 'modernise' them so to speak, would be to either allow Junior/Senior Officers the ability to leave/join units like every other normal IC, OR, at the very least, allow a Platoon's Junior Officer + 4 chumpies to join-up with the rest of the blob.

It's just brutal for Guard players trying to cope with how easy it is for pretty much everyone nowadays to remove 5 single wound/T3/5+ save models.

Experiment 626 wrote:
One change I really wish GW would make for Guard to help 'modernise' them so to speak, would be to either allow Junior/Senior Officers the ability to leave/join units like every other normal IC, OR, at the very least, allow a Platoon's Junior Officer + 4 chumpies to join-up with the rest of the blob.

Personally, I think Senior Officers should be ICs, who unlock separate, slotless Command Squads. So, you can put them with a Command Squad if you want, but they're not stuck there.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
I'm wondering why don't you just ignore him? He's obviously unable to keep the debate on a level, so why bother?

Because if nobody calls him on his stupid and/or ignorant behavior, then he'll never stop being stupid/ignorant.

At the very least I can be thankful I'm not him, nor suffering from whatever cognitive disorder he seems to be suffering from.

C'est la vie.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I'm certainly not saying that I agree with him, but all the little names and snide remarks you're making aren't exactly converting me to your side either. Maybe lighten up a bit and let your argument speak for itself?

ABSOLUTELY.

Everyone, please note: RULE #1 is MANDATORY here on Dakka Dakka.

Vendetta is not all that great.

You are paying 170 points for bs 3 3x twin linked las cannons might seem decent at first but there are some caveats.

#1 it cannot come in until turn 2, so the 170 points you're paying for wont become actualized until after the vendetta actually comes in (which might not even happen until after turn 2)

#2 Your chances of getting a hit are 75% with each shot. I'm now going to use a binomial probability formula.

(N NCR K) P^k (1-p) ^ n-k p = .75 n = 3 for number of trials K = desired result

I got 42 % chance for 2 hits. 42% chance for 3 hits. 14% chance for 1 hit. and 2% chance for no hits. So chances are that yes, you will hit, but it is more likely that you will not get 3 hits.

With those hits the enemy then has the ability to jink. With jink being 50%, chances are that you are probably only ever going to get 1 or 2 hits to go through. Then you need to roll to pen, which isn't that likely to fail, but it still introduces another dice roll. So actually downing an enemy aircraft in one turn is realistically very hard to do.

What this means is that your expensive flyer that came in on turn 2 is not going to destroy the enemy flyer. You are now faced with a decision to either continue shooting at the flyer (which will jink and continue to render both aircraft useless, but your flyer is more expensive so you are worse off), or ignore it and fire at ground targets which most likely have cover saves as well (this position also lets the enemy aircraft turn its guns on you leaving you now exposed.)

#3 The more shots you have lessens the effect that enemy saves have on your ability to kill enemies. With 3 shots 1 save is a big deal.

All in all take an avenger.

*Bs 3 lascannons.

 Selym wrote:
*Bs 3 lascannons.

4+ to hit for bs 3

I get bs mixed up sometimes. I still did the calculation with a 4+ rerollable.

Despite that, I still think the Vendetta is a decent flyer. It's overcosted for what it does, but never underestimate the shock value of what 3 flying, twin-linked lascannons will do to your opponent. To me it's almost worth it just to see how shocked my opponents usually are by it.

@Sledgehammer: I noticed, but I thought I should just point it out for the SM players around here

EDIT: Damn typos...

I love the idea of a guard army, but I rarely see them perform well on their own. Add in some Allies (like Azrael with a 30+ Guardsmen blob or Azzy + Bulgryn) and you can get some fun shenanigans.

Granted, they're not exactly an unbiased source, but I've watched all of MiniWarGaming's videos and maybe once have I seen guard win.

In the times I've played/seen people IG at my LGS, they've rarely won. I've also never lost a game to IG.

 War Kitten wrote:
Despite that, I still think the Vendetta is a decent flyer. It's overcosted for what it does, but never underestimate the shock value of what 3 flying, twin-linked lascannons will do to your opponent. To me it's almost worth it just to see how shocked my opponents usually are by it.

I tried that once. It only works the first time...

My opponent *still* claims it was OP though...

 Selym wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Despite that, I still think the Vendetta is a decent flyer. It's overcosted for what it does, but never underestimate the shock value of what 3 flying, twin-linked lascannons will do to your opponent. To me it's almost worth it just to see how shocked my opponents usually are by it.

I tried that once. It only works the first time...

My opponent *still* claims it was OP though...

My friends have yet to catch on, so the appearance of the flying metal box with lascannons still scares them.

 War Kitten wrote:
Despite that, I still think the Vendetta is a decent flyer. It's overcosted for what it does, but never underestimate the shock value of what 3 flying, twin-linked lascannons will do to your opponent. To me it's almost worth it just to see how shocked my opponents usually are by it.

I regularly take two or three vendettas in a list. They usually just fail to pin or glance against armor 14 and fly around as a waste of points. At 170 points they are vastly over costed.

They really are the most effective against armor 13 and 12, but now days, people won't take vehicles unless they are immune to explodes (knights) or have armor 14.

Prefer the Elysians Vendettas. 130 points seems better for them.