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 Frozocrone wrote:
Prefer the Elysians Vendettas. 130 points seems better for them.

Or ABG vendettas

If you ever want battlecannons in your IG force, take an allied ABG list, for two to seven 150 ppm LRBT and a 130 ppm vendetta squadron.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Prefer the Elysians Vendettas. 130 points seems better for them.

The Elysian Vendetta is not updated to the current codex. The first iteration was probably OP for its time (before I played), but right now with the current power creep I'd say it is about where it should be. That version also still has the capacity to carry 10 guys instead of just 5.

Weird. I imagined FW would have updated IA:3 to match the Codex. Unless I'm getting my dates wrong.

Out of curiosity, how do you think Vendettas compare to Ravagers?

Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lances - 125
- AV11, 11, 10
- Night Vision
- Can be on the board turn 1

Vendetta w/ 3 Lascannons - 170
- AV12, 12, 10
- Flier
- Can Hover
- Lascannons are slightly better weapons
- TL BS3 gives a better chance to hit than the Ravager, and makes it better at snapshotting
- Can transport small units

MASTER OF ORDINANCE IS BACK BABY!
(From some random ban - Not quite sure why but I guess the mod had his reasons)

Anyway, Jancoran I too would like you to provide evidence as to what ists you where running, what your opponent)s where running and what the tournament was. By the sounds of things I am guessing small scale local friendly ones.

Lack of formations. Yes, there are a few, but, for the most part, they suck. Wow, a Platoon command squad with two squads of Ogyrn/Bullgyrn for a few extra rules. Not powerful at all, especially when compared to SM getting transports for free. If the AM/IG could get free Chimeras for each unit that could take them, I think I would purchase a few more.

Just to make a point, at a tournament a few months ago, I ran into a Raven Wing army. Yes, I know the IG have a few ignore cover things, but, I don't have them. I did run Pask in a punisher,heavy bolter x3, with a punisher heavy bolter x3. Three Vet squads with plasma gun x2, heavy flamer, in chimeras, A knight, scout sentinels, storm trooper squads, vendetta, maybe a few other things. However, due to 2+/3+ re-rollable jink saves, no bikes died to shooting. I did kill 8 in close combat, the one thing IG does not do wel.

 vipoid wrote:
Out of curiosity, how do you think Vendettas compare to Ravagers?

Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lances - 125
- AV11, 11, 10
- Night Vision
- Can be on the board turn 1

Vendetta w/ 3 Lascannons - 170
- AV12, 12, 10
- Flier
- Can Hover
- Lascannons are slightly better weapons
- TL BS3 gives a better chance to hit than the Ravager, and makes it better at snapshotting
- Can transport small units

If the Dark Eldar player has turn 1, or if it has LOS blocking terrain to protect it, it is much, much better overall. It can reliably take out AV 14 which the vendetta cannot do. It is more of a glass cannon, but I feel like from a non-experiential position it is more versatile and reliable than the vendetta.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
It can reliably take out AV 14 which the vendetta cannot do.

I think our definitions of 'reliable' might be very different.

Assuming no cover, it takes 12 Dark Lance Shots to take out a land raider (or 27 to explode it). So, you'd need 2 of those Ravagers and they'd have to shoot at the land raider for 2 straight turns to average a kill. More if it has any cover.

Also, what about the many games where your opponent isn't using land raiders? In which case Dark Lances are just Lascannons with -1S and -12" Range.

 vipoid wrote:
Out of curiosity, how do you think Vendettas compare to Ravagers?

Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lances - 125
- AV11, 11, 10
- Night Vision
- Can be on the board turn 1

Vendetta w/ 3 Lascannons - 170
- AV12, 12, 10
- Flier
- Can Hover
- Lascannons are slightly better weapons
- TL BS3 gives a better chance to hit than the Ravager, and makes it better at snapshotting
- Can transport small units

Vendetta.

Take an average of two hits for both (Vendetta technically has 2.25 but we'll keep it simple). Assuming my maths is correct:

AV10: Ravager does 1.66 glances/pen, Vendetta does 2.25 glance/pen
AV11: Ravager does 1.33 glance/pen, Vendetta does 1.66 glance/pen
AV12 Ravager does 1 glance/pen, Vendetta does 1.33 glance/pen
AV13 Ravager does 1 glance/pen, Vendetta does 1 glance/pen
AV14 Ravager does 1 glance/pen, Vendetta does .66 glance/pen
AV15 Ravager does 1 glance/pen, Vendetta does .33 glance.

So Vendetta does better against AV10-12, same against AV13 and worse against AV14-15. But AV10-12 is more common that AV13+ in competitive lists (on average) so how often the Ravager wins this is debatable.

I don't even want to do against Flyers, Vendetta clearly wins out when no Flyer has better than AV12 (to my knowledge) and also has Skyfire rule.

Final note, Ravager can be hit by scattered blasts/templates. Might not mean much but when a TFC scatters and has a .33 chance to pen and render you ineffective for a turn is just bleh. Wraithguard w/ DScythes and WWP...yeah. Vendetta > Ravager. But hey, it's not DE aren't completely outclassed, right? Right? sobs in corner


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When you need two HS choices to down the common Rhino chassis, three to down a Drop Pod in a turn, you really ought to question the viability of it.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Out of curiosity, how do you think Vendettas compare to Ravagers?

Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lances - 125
- AV11, 11, 10
- Night Vision
- Can be on the board turn 1

Vendetta w/ 3 Lascannons - 170
- AV12, 12, 10
- Flier
- Can Hover
- Lascannons are slightly better weapons
- TL BS3 gives a better chance to hit than the Ravager, and makes it better at snapshotting
- Can transport small units

Vendetta.

Take an average of two hits for both (Vendetta technically has 2.25 but we'll keep it simple). Assuming my maths is correct:

AV10: Ravager does 1.66 glances/pen, Vendetta does 2.25 glance/pen
AV11: Ravager does 1.33 glance/pen, Vendetta does 1.66 glance/pen
AV12 Ravager does 1 glance/pen, Vendetta does 1.33 glance/pen
AV13 Ravager does 1 glance/pen, Vendetta does 1 glance/pen
AV14 Ravager does 1 glance/pen, Vendetta does .66 glance/pen
AV15 Ravager does 1 glance/pen, Vendetta does .33 glance.

So Vendetta does better against AV10-12, same against AV13 and worse against AV14-15. But AV10-12 is more common that AV13+ in competitive lists (on average) so how often the Ravager wins this is debatable.

I don't even want to do against Flyers, Vendetta clearly wins out when no Flyer has better than AV12 (to my knowledge) and also has Skyfire rule.

Final note, Ravager can be hit by scattered blasts/templates. Might not mean much but when a TFC scatters and has a .33 chance to pen and render you ineffective for a turn is just bleh. Wraithguard w/ DScythes and WWP...yeah. Vendetta > Ravager. But hey, it's not DE aren't completely outclassed, right? Right? sobs in corner


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When you need two HS choices to down the common Rhino chassis, three to down a Drop Pod in a turn, you really ought to question the viability of it.

I do agree, but my assessment was done with a meta that tends to have higher armor as opposed to the one that you are referencing.
You also have to take into account the turn one advantage it has over the vendetta and its lowered points cost.
Overall I still feel like the ravager comes out slightly on top.

It really depends on the meta though.

Fair comment.

I find Haywire Scourge better than Ravagers for heavy armour. 2.22 glances/pens no matter the value (1.11 against Schism of Mars).

I use my Ravagers as Dissie ones. 1.33 Hammernators dead per Ravager on average. Not great, but I'm yet to find a good heavy infantry destroyer in DE that I enjoy using (Reavers aren't rolling hot for me at the minute, got that snake eyes nailed to a T for Caltrops).

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Vipoid,

Jancoran edited a post of his on the previous page (#8) to include some information to back up the veracity of his claims. It was laughably and woefully lacking in actual information needed to definitively prove any of his assertions or speak to anyone folks could prove were not in fact Jancoran himself posing as this 'other person'.

Rather comical, really.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

...He actually posed as the other person?

If I had a non-crap computer I'd Vassal him so hard. How DID that Vassal challenge earlier go?

I'd say the vendetta is more reliable than the ravager given its durability, the fact that it comes in on a 2+ (I would never not take a MOF if I was taking a Vendetta) and the fact that it gets TL vs BS4.

Add in the fact that it takes a previously near-worthless unit (PCS) and turns it into something that could comceivably help guards anemic objective game (4x flamers with Obsec hopping out T3) and it's not in a HS slot and I think the vendetta is underused in guard armies. Though I would not take it if I were taking mech guard as I would have meltavets and wouldn't have pcs squads. So that's probably why it's not as relevant with how prevalent the meltavet build is.

Which, honestly, if my reason for playing guard was anything other than "I wanna put Vostroyans on the table) I would probably be running chimera vets too.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

The only puzzle I see here is in the entire post above, where you didn't do anything to prove the claim that you have won any tournament with Chaos Space Marines, or Sisters of Battle. You can't make the claim, then ignore when someone asks for verification/proof that the claim is genuine.
-Red__Thirst-

Yet I did prove it. Too busy responding to actually read? Just go to their facebook page. LIKE I SAID.

Damon Scythe was present at both events but works at Rainy Day Games. Its posted on their facebook page. Knock yourself out and read what i wrote for once, instead of furiously typing away like a chipmunk with your next pithy response.

I was undefeated at both events. Doubt it. Dont doubt it. Dont care any more.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


...He actually posed as the other person?

If I had a non-crap computer I'd Vassal him so hard. How DID that Vassal challenge earlier go?

No. I actually didnt. Just find it on facebook. Its free and everything.

 Jancoran wrote:

No. I actually didnt. This is just same a-hole trying to win an argument he's already lost.

Rich, coming from a guy who's argument is "my meta's soft, so IG aren't underpowered".

What lists do you run? Why do you never post them?

I mean seriously do you not get how it looks suspicious when you continually dodge questions asking what list you used and what lists you played against?

 aka_mythos wrote:

I said that IG armies are considered underpowered because they lose more than they win.
.

For whom? As has been said, the codex doesnt play itself. So... For whom?

Which was my point. They don't lose more than they win for everyone, clearly.

You're SAYING that it is the codex's fault. Yet, I can see with mine own eyes people winning more often than they lose. I also see people losing more than they win. And ironically both play the same codex. is that not something you spent any time wondering about?

You'll just argue "opponent strength" or some equally insulting insinuation of course. Which is your only defense against a reality in which SOME people win more than they lose, using this very codex.

Do people lose more than they win using the Chaos Codex?

Do people lose more often than they win using the Adepta Sororitas codex?

Do they? And yet... it seems... That really isnt the impediment here. Will they lose? Certainly. Of course. No one wins all their games. Can't and shouldn't be done.

My Adepta Sororitas had to face the Castigator+Daemonkin list w Khorne dog spam and juggy lord good ness etc... Yes. Forge World. He did not win. They had to fight the War Convocation plus Imperial Knight combo. He did not win. Is that because the War Convocation is terrible? Is that because Forge World Castigator is terrible? No.

So when I hear this stuff i just ask the simple question: It's struggling to win for whom? Because that actually seems to matter.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I mean seriously do you not get how it looks suspicious when you continually dodge questions asking what list you used and what lists you played against?

I answered that earlier dude. You missed the post. See above.

 Jancoran wrote:

You'll just argue "opponent strength" or some equally insulting insinuation of course. Which is your only defense against a reality in which SOME people win more than they lose, using this very codex.

How is that any more insulting than you blaming the IG player?

 Selym wrote:
What lists do you run? Why do you never post them?

 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

You'll just argue "opponent strength" or some equally insulting insinuation of course. Which is your only defense against a reality in which SOME people win more than they lose, using this very codex.

How is that any less insulting than blaming the IG player?

Oh I didnt BLAME anyone. I observed the obvious. Just because someone is losing doesnt mean they will keep losing. They just ARE going to have to change what they are doing. And if they are unwilling to listen to anyone who tries to help, well then i would expect them to keep struggling.

Its not ABOUT blame. It's about a simple observation. Some DO win. Some DO lose. Yet...same codex. Seems like you can easily infer something here...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Selym wrote:
What lists do you run? Why do you never post them?

My list has been posted! It's on another thread for anyone to see. Its on my blog. its on my local forum which Ive handed out multiple times. this is not a big secret!

 Jancoran wrote:

Oh I didnt BLAME anyone. I observed the obvious. Just because someone is losing doesnt mean they will keep losing. They just ARE going to have to change what they are doing. And if they are unwilling to listen to anyone who tries to help, well then i would expect them to keep struggling.

Its not ABOUT blame. It's about a simple observation. Some DO win. Some DO lose. Yet...same codex. Seems like you can easily infer something here...

I think you've completely failed to understand my point. Let me try it this way:

Oh I didnt BLAME anyone. I observed the obvious. Just because someone is WINNING doesnt mean they will keep WINNING. TheIR OPPONENTS just ARE going to have to change what they are doing. And if they are unwilling to listen to anyone who tries to help, well then i would expect them to keep struggling.

Its not ABOUT blame. It's about a simple observation. Some DO LOSE. Some DO WIN. Yet...same codex. Seems like you can easily infer something here...

See what I did there?

 Jancoran wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Selym wrote:
What lists do you run? Why do you never post them?

My list has been posted! It's on another thread for anyone to see. Its on my blog. its on my local forum which Ive handed out multiple times. this is not a big secret!

*exasperated*

Where? Which thread? Can ya link it? Is it IG? Who were your opponents? What were their lists? Do you use weighted dice?

 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Oh I didnt BLAME anyone. I observed the obvious. Just because someone is losing doesnt mean they will keep losing. They just ARE going to have to change what they are doing. And if they are unwilling to listen to anyone who tries to help, well then i would expect them to keep struggling.

Its not ABOUT blame. It's about a simple observation. Some DO win. Some DO lose. Yet...same codex. Seems like you can easily infer something here...

I think you've completely failed to understand my point. Let me try it this way:

Oh I didnt BLAME anyone. I observed the obvious. Just because someone is WINNING doesnt mean they will keep WINNING. TheIR OPPONENTS just ARE going to have to change what they are doing. And if they are unwilling to listen to anyone who tries to help, well then i would expect them to keep struggling.

Its not ABOUT blame. It's about a simple observation. Some DO LOSE. Some DO WIN. Yet...same codex. Seems like you can easily infer something here...

See what I did there?

Childishly played word games bcause you know I'm right? If you want to defer the causation from the General to the Codex, you do that.

 Jancoran wrote:

Childishly played word games bcause you know I'm right? If you want to defer the causation from the General to the Codex, you do that.

The only reason I was able to play such "word games" was that your statement was utter nonsense to begin with.

If you don't want me playing word games, then come back when you have an actual argument.

This thread isn't about the Astra Militarum anymore

 Selym wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Selym wrote:
What lists do you run? Why do you never post them?

My list has been posted! It's on another thread for anyone to see. Its on my blog. its on my local forum which Ive handed out multiple times. this is not a big secret!

*exasperated*

Where? Which thread? Can ya link it? Is it IG? Who were your opponents? What were their lists? Do you use weighted dice?

My Night Lords list is here on Dakkadakka: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/669194.page

My Adepta Soriritas list was this:
4 Dominion Squads (usual Meltas in Rhinos)
2 Canoness
Retributor Squad (Heavy Flamers in rhino)
3 Sisters of Battle Squads (Meltas, one unit in Rhino, other two reserved)

In larger games, there's more Dominion and Sisters, basically.

My Imperial Guard army isn't posted because I suppose with the number of forces I play, I haven't devoted as much time on it lately. However I've been using my Militarum Tempestus extensively since the codex dropped. I use IG Allies in that list, which includes the blob squad, so I suppose if you WANTED that list I could give it to you but its not really what we're talking about here (the unit is, the army isn't). The blob squad itself is the key piece that is relevant which is why we spent so much time on it. You can put it in either list really, so I do.

So since theres such mystery about the lists...well... Now there isnt.

And your opponents lists?

 Jancoran wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Selym wrote:
What lists do you run? Why do you never post them?

My list has been posted! It's on another thread for anyone to see. Its on my blog. its on my local forum which Ive handed out multiple times. this is not a big secret!

*exasperated*

Where? Which thread? Can ya link it? Is it IG? Who were your opponents? What were their lists? Do you use weighted dice?

My Night Lords list is here on Dakkadakka: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/669194.page

My Adepta Soriritas list was this:
4 Dominion Squads (usual Meltas in Rhinos)
2 Canoness
Retributor Squad (Heavy Flamers in rhino)
3 Sisters of Battle Squads (Meltas, one unit in Rhino, other two reserved)

In larger games, there's more Dominion and Sisters, basically.

My Imperial Guard army isn't posted because I suppose with the number of forces I play, I haven't devoted as much time on it lately. However I've been using my Militarum Tempestus extensively since the codex dropped. I use IG Allies in that list, which includes the blob squad, so I suppose if you WANTED that list I could give it to you but its not really what we're talking about here (the unit is, the army isn't). The blob squad itself is the key piece that is relevant which is why we spent so much time on it. You can put it in either list really, so I do.

So since theres such mystery about the lists...well... Now there isnt.

Headway!!

Ok, now, while there's still some steam in your boiler, who was the T.O. Not an employee of whatever store your facebook link was earlier (Also, not everyone uses facebook, I'd appreciate if you'd just say the full name of the store and an address or approximate address so I can google it and get the telephone number), I want the *name* of the T.O. Doesn't have to be his full name, but at least his first name. Not an alias or internet handle, his hame. Then, after that, I'd love to know what opponents you played. What lists were you up against and what was their composition, so that if and when I call said game store/tournament location, I can verify that you did indeed play the people you claim to have played against in at least one, if not both tournaments.

It's not hard man, this is basic info that people are requesting. Your *continued* refusal to share it makes you continue to look very, very shady.

That's all I've got. Hopefully you're able to follow along now that you've had a nap there Jancoran.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

In the interest of actually keeping this thread on topic, let's take at one of the lists from our buddy Jancoran. He's such a good general, he can even make MIlitarum Tempestas work! Here's his idea of a strong list: Total Roster Cost: 1999

Combined Arms Detachment

4 Tempestus Scions, + 4 Hot Shot Volley Guns
1 Tempestor Prime


4 Tempestus Scions, + Flamers x4
1 Tempestor Prime


7 Tempestus Scions (2 Melta Guns)
1 Tempestor


4 Tempestus Scions (Grenade Launcher)
1 Tempestor


Allied Detachment

Commissar Lord (Power Maul)

1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
1 Primaris Psyker


1 Ministorum Priest
1 Ministorum Priest
1 Ministorum Priest

2 Hydras

7 Veterans
1 Veteran Sergeant
1 Veteran Heavy Weapons Team(Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles)
1 Chimera

Militarum Tempestus Ground Assault Formation

4 x Taurox Prime

1 Commissar

4 Tempestus Scions, + Hot Shot Volley Guns x4
1 Tempestor Prime

7 Tempestus Scions (2 Meltaguns)
1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

7 Tempestus Scions (2 Meltaguns)
1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

7 Tempestus Scions (2 Meltaguns)
1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

It's feeding time! And I get the first bite!

This list is laughably bad. I don't know what has gotten into your head that has convinced you that MT are playable in anything approaching this list setup, because they aren't.

If the CAD is supposed to go with the IG allies to make a blob squad, you don't have anything near the numbers for that. It also runs into all the standard problems of blobs. The rest of the choices are just baffling. Three Hydras? Taurox Primes? Power Fists on the Sergeants? If this is your idea of an effective list, you are playing in what is probably the most casual meta in North America, perhaps in the Western Hemisphere. Do not make me go back to your (terribly formatted) blog and dig up your CSM and Sisters lists, because I'm promising you people it's a comedy goldmine.

Here are the two fundamental problems with guard blobs on the offence (they are admittedly good at sitting on the defense):

#1: The blob is slow. At most, you can move twelve inches a turn if you don't shoot. If you are daisy-chaining heavy weapons teams along, you can at most more six inches. Any unit in the game can run away from you all the live-long day if they chip away at the front line. You don't even get to play objective games, as because the entire blob was taken as one unit it may only score one objective.

#2: The blob is amorphous. Deathstars made out of thunderwolves are scary because each thunderwolf puts out a lot of hurt, especially with the right wargear. The individual guardsman is effective only as chaff, and any characters in the blob don't have the statlines to compete with dedicated CC units and characters. The size of the blob also works against it, as with the right maneuvering I can attack particularly vulnerable parts of the blob (heavy weapons teams) and potentially kill enough to break out of combat due to you being unable to get into BtB with your consolidation. Hit and Run is a blob's worst nightmare, as I only have to be locked in for two rounds before being able to charge you again and repeat the process.

Wiht any luck, you might have learned something form this, Jancoran. Oh, who am I kidding, you'll just cherry pick part of my post and claim my entire argument is invalid, like you always do.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Selym wrote:
What lists do you run? Why do you never post them?

My list has been posted! It's on another thread for anyone to see. Its on my blog. its on my local forum which Ive handed out multiple times. this is not a big secret!

*exasperated*

Where? Which thread? Can ya link it? Is it IG? Who were your opponents? What were their lists? Do you use weighted dice?

My Night Lords list is here on Dakkadakka: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/669194.page

My Adepta Soriritas list was this:
4 Dominion Squads (usual Meltas in Rhinos)
2 Canoness
Retributor Squad (Heavy Flamers in rhino)
3 Sisters of Battle Squads (Meltas, one unit in Rhino, other two reserved)

In larger games, there's more Dominion and Sisters, basically.

My Imperial Guard army isn't posted because I suppose with the number of forces I play, I haven't devoted as much time on it lately. However I've been using my Militarum Tempestus extensively since the codex dropped. I use IG Allies in that list, which includes the blob squad, so I suppose if you WANTED that list I could give it to you but its not really what we're talking about here (the unit is, the army isn't). The blob squad itself is the key piece that is relevant which is why we spent so much time on it. You can put it in either list really, so I do.

So since theres such mystery about the lists...well... Now there isnt.

Okay. Thank you for posting them.

Right. Given that this thread is about the AM codex, of which the blob squad is a part, we shall go back to that.
Earlier, you claimed that it is really difficult to remove a blob squad. Let's see what we can make, as the toughest reasonable blob squad. I'm not great with mathammer, so I'll need someone else to attempt to crack it. Once we have determined how easy/hard it is to crack, we can use that as the metric by which to judge your meta:

Blob Skwad:

-Platoon Command (4 IG, 1 Commander)
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt)
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt)
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt)
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt)
-3x Priests
-3x ML2 Primaris Psykers
-3x Commissar
-1x Yarrick (for orders)
-Azrael (for the 4++)

750 pts, plus an Azrael.
Or 605, plus Azrael, minus Yarrick.

I reckon it can be beaten out by 400 pts or less.