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I'd suggest that Azreal not be allowed, since he's not in the IG codex and wasn't part of Jancoran's super-blob anyway.

How about just going for best-case-scenario, and assuming that they have a 4++ from psychic powers? (Which I believe was the intention, anyway.)

Also, if you're attempting to build Jancoran's blob, then all the sergeants have power axes (don't forget this is a melee unit!) and each platoon has a lascannon team.

 ImAGeek wrote:
And your opponents lists?

I didn't keep them. You're out of luck there.

ALREADY mentioned what the Adepta Sororitas had to face (Warconvocation with IMP Knight and the Castigator +Khornate Daemonkin guy being the fights of note).

The Night Lords faced Tyranids (not a tough list, it was Genestealer cult), then it faced a Loota heavy Biker army with Forge World characters giving it all kinds of whacky stuff and some meganbz in a Battlewagon to back them up. One of them was a Biker with a Shock attack gun, which I've never seen. The other was a Forge World biker Commander that gave out pretty cool buffs. Zard-somethingorother. but I just cant remember what he was. I liked the army but the mission was to demolish three of four buildings and the Night Lords were able to hold him away from them, leaving it up to the lootas and guns in the back to handle (which he had a tn of, so....) Long story short, I eventually broke his big unit and Meganobz in the middle, and got his lootas before he conceded eventually. He had his Artillery unit left with a Mutilator closing in I think and Raptors coming from the other direction.

The third game was against Oseas Aduna. I know him because he's actually from my area. He rolled through his first two opponents using his orky Dread army. This was NOT good matchup for me, because I had already tested my list against a normal Space Marine Dreadnought list before and those things would mulch me when they arrived. I don't have nearly the amout of anti-tank and he had I dont KNOW how many Killakans, Deffdreads, Morkanauts or Gorkanauts (He had them all) In that game. I reserved everything except for one unit of Raptors and their Eye of Night Commander, plus a single Obliterator. Orks went first. He began his inexorable march towards me and shot up quite a few raptors turn one. To make a long story short, my tattered Raptors and the Obliterator kinda just held the line until the reinforcements could arrive, so he shot me as much as he could on the come. his shooting was convincing me by round two that i needed to get into melee and so i engaged at the bottom of two just to hide from his cannons and missiles that fire a lot of dangerous shots per round. Even an ork can hit when he has that many shots at that high a str!

Ultimately my mobility won it for me. I was able to break out and around him and play the keep away game until i could get a matchup I liked. and he had moved to my right enough that he couldnt bring the same volume of fire to bear to the left as he had to the right so I liked the left side just fine. I could only take so many of him at a time so I chose my battles wisely. it was a hard game. Even up 10-6 at the end, he had a chance to kill six units (Rhinos with 5 Marines in each) and he WAAGH'd. Everything had to go right and the dice came up a little short. But it was a good game and ended 10-6. I hadn't fought an Ork list like that before. It was definitely interesting, especially wit hthe amount of cover they had to use as they approached. Tough sledding.

Oseas Aduna was one roll away from probably winning the Evensword Ambssadorial tournament too, which was really bad luck. He was set up perfectly and the Eldar seized. Ouch.

Anyways, good games. There were only three Imperium lists there which was kind of interesting.

 Selym wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Selym wrote:
What lists do you run? Why do you never post them?

My list has been posted! It's on another thread for anyone to see. Its on my blog. its on my local forum which Ive handed out multiple times. this is not a big secret!

*exasperated*

Where? Which thread? Can ya link it? Is it IG? Who were your opponents? What were their lists? Do you use weighted dice?

My Night Lords list is here on Dakkadakka: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/669194.page

My Adepta Soriritas list was this:
4 Dominion Squads (usual Meltas in Rhinos)
2 Canoness
Retributor Squad (Heavy Flamers in rhino)
3 Sisters of Battle Squads (Meltas, one unit in Rhino, other two reserved)

In larger games, there's more Dominion and Sisters, basically.

My Imperial Guard army isn't posted because I suppose with the number of forces I play, I haven't devoted as much time on it lately. However I've been using my Militarum Tempestus extensively since the codex dropped. I use IG Allies in that list, which includes the blob squad, so I suppose if you WANTED that list I could give it to you but its not really what we're talking about here (the unit is, the army isn't). The blob squad itself is the key piece that is relevant which is why we spent so much time on it. You can put it in either list really, so I do.

So since theres such mystery about the lists...well... Now there isnt.

Okay. Thank you for posting them.

Right. Given that this thread is about the AM codex, of which the blob squad is a part, we shall go back to that.
Earlier, you claimed that it is really difficult to remove a blob squad. Let's see what we can make, as the toughest reasonable blob squad. I'm not great with mathammer, so I'll need someone else to attempt to crack it. Once we have determined how easy/hard it is to crack, we can use that as the metric by which to judge your meta:

Blob Skwad:

-Platoon Command (4 IG, 1 Commander)
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt)
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt)
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt)
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt)
-3x Priests
-3x ML2 Primaris Psykers
-3x Commissar
-1x Yarrick (for orders)
-Azrael (for the 4++)

750 pts, plus an Azrael.
Or 605, plus Azrael, minus Yarrick.

I reckon it can be beaten out by 400 pts or less.

It's been demonstrated that 20 scat bikes, with no support, removes this in 2 turns. With guide, this is still 2 turns, but the first turn sees removal of close to 30 soliders instead of 22.
I believe 20 bikes are 540 points. The version he runs does not include Azrael, who I believe makes this unit a lot better by tanking the shots with a 3+ save and providing more CC abilities to the squad (it's how I usually see this run). HW are included in his version (4 Lascannons I believe).
30 marines in Pods with launchers removes this in two squads, with proper deployment. Flamers make this a lot worse for the blob (I just assumed bolters).
Equivalent points in wraiths or flayed ones removes this unit.
I believe 400 points in seekers removes this unit, though it takes 2 turns.

I am unsure how many points grey knights, warp spiders, or nids are needed to remove this unit.
I believe someone mentioned that 3 wyverns do it relatively quickly as well.

 vipoid wrote:
I'd suggest that Azreal not be allowed, since he's not in the IG codex and wasn't part of Jancoran's super-blob anyway.

How about just going for best-case-scenario, and assuming that they have a 4++ from psychic powers? (Which I believe was the intention, anyway.)

Also, if you're attempting to build Jancoran's blob, then all the sergeants have power axes (don't forget this is a melee unit!) and each platoon has a lascannon team.

Blob Skwad:

-Platoon Command (4 IG, 1 Commander), 1x Powah Axe, 1x Lascannon Team
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt), 1x Powah Axe, 1x Lascannon Team
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt), 1x Powah Axe, 1x Lascannon Team
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt), 1x Powah Axe, 1x Lascannon Team
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt), 1x Powah Axe, 1x Lascannon Team
-IG Squad (9 IG, 1 Sgt), 1x Powah Axe, 1x Lascannon Team
-3x Priests
-3x ML2 Primaris Psykers
-3x Commissar
-1x Yarrick (for orders)

960 pts

 Selym wrote:


750 pts, plus an Azrael.
Or 605, plus Azrael, minus Yarrick.

I reckon it can be beaten out by 400 pts or less.

1. Its been beaten, By Haemonculous Coven. We already know it can be beaten. It was. once.
2. Azrael isnt in the codex so that would be kind of cheating.
3. Commissar isn't really necessary. I mean you can add him but i don't see a lot of gain there. Priests are already zealots so all you're doing is packing in another power weapon i guess? It seems like overkill but sure if we want more Power Weapons, we can in fact get them.
4. The unit only needs to kill you. So we want it to be the perfect size so that it does that well without being any more "wasteful" of points than we can get away with. That's why i don't use 50 Guardsman. After many games, i have not found that 50 adds anything really. Until the unit is actually BEING destroyed at 40... Meh. And side note: when i tried it at 30, that was too few. it died a couple times at that size. The one added power Axe helped weather chellenges and added just enough wounds and attacks. So 40 is about perfect for this unit in practice.

Units the blob squad is useless against, but will cause srs damage:

-Land Raider Crusader / Redeemer
-2 batteries of 2 Wyverns, from T1
-Scat Bikes
-Drop Pod Ironclad Dreadnought
-2 LR Eradicators w/3x Heavy Bolter

The first three are normal, the fourth is unusual but underpowered. The last one is probably tailored, but I seem to recall Master of Ordnance proving it handily does the job on the cheap.

 Jancoran wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

I said that IG armies are considered underpowered because they lose more than they win.
.

For whom? As has been said, the codex doesnt play itself. So... For whom?

Which was my point. They don't lose more than they win for everyone, clearly.

You're asking for data where no data exists. It is anecdotal. You're missing the point, the perception that they are underpowered comes from the fact people see them lose. It doesn't actually matter IF they are losing anymore than the next army when its a question of percreption.

 Jancoran wrote:

You're SAYING that it is the codex's fault. Yet, I can see with mine own eyes people winning more often than they lose.

This is what I said:

I wrote:An opinion I share with others is that this codex is predisposed to a style of game play that is not as successful because what it does best against is not that common in this edition. Implicitly this means if some people are doing well, it is likely that they are breaking from convention to buck the trend or are really lucky. This predisposition is once again not a judgement against the book in so much as an analysis of the most common meta.

 Jancoran wrote:

You'll just argue "opponent strength" or some equally insulting insinuation of course. Which is your only defense against a reality in which SOME people win more than they lose, using this very codex.

I wouldn't argue that at all. Its a failure of the player to understand their own meta.

 Jancoran wrote:

So when I hear this stuff i just ask the simple question: It's struggling to win for whom? Because that actually seems to matter.

You have your opinion and you choose to ignore the opinion of a thread where the majority of people here with their experiences disagree with you. I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but "for whom?" -them... the people writing in this thread have played the game at least as long as you; some have played IG since before your Voystroyans. Their experiences are just as valid as yours and carry just as much weight. They aren't

 Jancoran wrote:
whiny

Their experiences are just different. I'm sure everyone here is happy you and your IG playing friends in your area are doing well in this edition and codex, but many aren't.

The amount of hate here is pretty amazing. Even worse than BA threads.

Akiasura wrote:


It's been demonstrated that 20 scat bikes, with no support, removes this in 2 turns.

Flamers make this a lot worse for the blob (I just assumed bolters).
Equivalent points in wraiths or flayed ones removes this unit.
I believe 400 points in seekers removes this unit, though it takes 2 turns.

I am unsure how many points grey knights, warp spiders, or nids are needed to remove this unit.
I believe someone mentioned that 3 wyverns do it relatively quickly as well.

Scatterbikes need a target in order to actually kill the blob. So they do have that limitation. one hops the rest of the army can do something about them before they arrive in such a case.

Flamers? you can deploy outward with a bubble to handle that. But yes. flamers ARE cool against blobs of course. Havent managed to kill them but they are cool.

Flayed ones? really good. How many there will be once they complete the charge is another story (round of shooting plus Foreboding) but you're not wrong. Ive eaten blobs with them myself when they lacked the Psykers and Priests. Mine dont lack either.

Ive definitely killed Wraithstars. So thats not in question. Its just a battle of attrition there. But they will hold us up a long long time. Wraithstars are one of the major reasons to do what i am suggesting. The entire blob might kill 4 wounds off a Wraithstar per round. It's a slow grind. Takes like three phases to kill them all and thats if you dont run into any bad luck so probably more like four. I am confident about those though. They are bettr than Flayed ones in this way: they actually WILL most likely get into contact with a lot less attrition from the shooting so in that way they are good.

Wyverns are brutal. But then you're complimenting IG in a thread you wish to make the claim in that IG aren't good? make up your mind! Wyverns do work. thats why itsso important to have four lascannons that re-roll misses and have tank hunter. Dont you agree?

 Jancoran wrote:

Scatterbikes need a target in order to actually kill the blob.

They have one - the blob.

 Jancoran wrote:

Flamers? you can deploy outward with a bubble to handle that.

Could you explain what you mean by this?

 Jancoran wrote:

Wyverns are brutal. But then you're complimenting IG in a thread you wish to make the claim in that IG aren't good?

I'm not sure I'd put it as a compliment, tbh. As a general rule, people want their army to be effective against other armies - not against itself.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:


It's been demonstrated that 20 scat bikes, with no support, removes this in 2 turns.

Flamers make this a lot worse for the blob (I just assumed bolters).
Equivalent points in wraiths or flayed ones removes this unit.
I believe 400 points in seekers removes this unit, though it takes 2 turns.

I am unsure how many points grey knights, warp spiders, or nids are needed to remove this unit.
I believe someone mentioned that 3 wyverns do it relatively quickly as well.

Scatterbikes need a target in order to actually kill the blob. So they do have that limitation. one hops the rest of the army can do something about them before they arrive in such a case.

Scatterbikes can move quite far and ignore intervening cover, and a unit like this is going to have a massive footprint. I really don't see how scatterbikes will fail to have a target, especially against a unit that really wants to see melee to be effective.
Some IG armies can handle scat bikes (though not many, since they are great at the pop and shoot, have excellent range, and are quite fast...plus jink) but the one attributed to yourself can not. What exactly is removing the scat bikes before they do the damage? Especially if they start the game 30~40" away, possibly out of LoS or in cover?

 Jancoran wrote:

Flamers? you can deploy outward with a bubble to handle that. But yes. flamers ARE cool against blobs of course. Havent managed to kill them but they are cool.

If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I say flamers are not needed for the marines to do their job.
I don't assume flamers since, in my experience, flamers are not a common weapon on marines. YMMV

 Jancoran wrote:

Flayed ones? really good. How many there will be once they complete the charge is another story (round of shooting plus Foreboding) but you're not wrong. Ive eaten blobs with them myself when they lacked the Psykers and Priests. Mine dont lack either.

Considering they are T4 with a 3+ and 4+ RP? Quite a bit, actually.
2 shots, 1 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/9 saves, 1/18 go through RP (It's a bit worse without 4+, becomes 2/27).
Notice that is per guardsmen, so your blob will drop...2-3 (2 if Decurion, 3 otherwise).
The lascannons do good work here, but there are still only 4. Flayed ones are cheap enough that, for equivalent points, the enemy can field quite a bit.
They get something like 5 attacks, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's (w/re-roll), 4++ re-rollable. They cost about 3 guardsmen, and will kill 1 each before the guardsmen can go.

Re-rolls to hit (outside of combat), Foreboding, and 4++ require 4 WC's as well. To make sure each power goes off, you're going to want to throw 3, 3, and 5 dice every turn. So 11, with 6ML levels. You need to roll a 5+ to see all 3 powers go off every turn, not including deny the witch (which will most likely include all of the dice going into the 4++ power, so probably put an extra 1 or 2 dice there, since it's critical it goes off).
The 3 priests are testing on Ld 7 I believe, and hatred only lasts for the first turn (and you will not wipe them the first turn). The unit loses a lot of melee power after the first turn.

 Jancoran wrote:

Ive definitely killed Wraithstars. So thats not in question. Its just a battle of attrition there. But they will hold us up a long long time. Wraithstars are one of the major reasons to do what i am suggesting. The entire blob might kill 4 wounds off a Wraithstar per round. It's a slow grind. Takes like three phases to kill them all and thats if you dont run into any bad luck so probably more like four. I am confident about those though. They are bettr than Flayed ones in this way: they actually WILL most likely get into contact with a lot less attrition from the shooting so in that way they are good.

4 wounds is 2 wraiths, and for equivalent points you can easily fit 15 wraiths. It'll take 8 phases to kill them all, assuming they don't have a lord or anyone else.
If the priests die or fail their hymns, the wraiths will throttle this unit.

 Jancoran wrote:

Wyverns are brutal. But then you're complimenting IG in a thread you wish to make the claim in that IG aren't good? make up your mind! Wyverns do work. thats why itsso important to have four lascannons that re-roll misses and have tank hunter. Dont you agree?

The argument right now is that this blob isn't good.
No one will claim the wyvern isn't good. It's easily the best unit in the dex, with maybe 2-3 competitors. It's not enough to lift the codex, but they are very good.
4 lascannons (again, needing 4 WCs now) with re-rolls to hit and tank hunter will kill 1 wyvern per turn if the wyvern is not in cover. With cover they won't (can use yet another power at this point, and you're already unlikely to get all the other powers you are casting off).
Even if you blow up 1 wyvern, the other 2-3 can decimate this squad pretty easily. For less points.

Technically speaking you could also use Ignores Cover with an order rather than a power. You're hurting the Wyverns on a 3+ with Lascannons.

I am curious how the blob las works for you as my blob is set up similarly.

I use 50 man blob, 5 flamers, 5 Lascannons. Attach one priest, Coteaz in place of a commissar and ML2 psyker (better in cc, ld10, still stubborn still ml2, more wounds, and gives pseudo-intercept) and a generic inquisitor in place of ml1 psyker to give rad grenades and better statline along with servo skulls.

I find the Lascannons work great...in games I already would have won. When I'm in a favorable matchup guard doesn't struggle with they really hammer the balance in my favor, cracking hard targets in early turns so my Russes and Earthshakers can mop up the rest.

But in the competitive matches where guard struggles, such as against Gladius marines where my artillery can't break the 3++ 4+++ bikestars, my ap3 big blasts are woefully inefficient against 500 points of free razorbacks, and my huge blob is an easy target for triple-wyvern squadrons, the 5 Lascannons feel incredibly inefficient as I'm wasting all those points on powers and buffs and wounds and LD buffs when my opponent can slap together a las dev squad and they get TL, tank hunter, ATSKNF and practically everything I get for free just for being space marines.


How do you justify 750 points for 5 TL tank hunter Lascannons when SMa can get 4 for 100?

 Frozocrone wrote:
This thread isn't about the Astra Militarum anymore

This.