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But I want it all and I want it now!

So if you unlock flying for one character, will it work for all? Or does every character have to unlock their own? I'm guessing it's the latter?

Purely opinion here, but honestly, I was upset about not being able to fly in WoD. The continent was huge and the flight paths for taxi service would go so far out of the way just because.

I've only done quests in Stormheim so far, but stuff seemed much closer, it seems like the zones are smaller, so I'm okay with running compared to flying for now. As long as travel time isn't too mucky, I'm good.

Of course, I'll likely feel a lot differently when I'm max level and getting where I need to be will not involve simply hitting the next questgiver over, but going over entire zones. We'll see, though.

I resubbed two days ago to check Legion out, haven't touched anything except a new Demon Hunter. I really like the class. I haven't been on since last year, but I had a level 100 of almost every class, so I look forward to seeing what's changed for some others.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
It's fine for the first character or so, which is why I'm alright with Blizzard hiding it to some extent, but after that nothing new is gained, and you'll likely only find new stuff if you go looking for it. It just becomes another chore of levelling.

Except the non-linear leveling path is still there. You will be 110 long before you have done all main quests, and when dungeons, treasures, bonus objectives and side quests are added into the mix, it is certainly not over after the first character. I am leveling a second Death Knight now, having just hit 105, and I am not bored; I also found plenty of rare creatures and treasures I completely overlooked on my first go.

The various rep grinds just mean you're stuck playing the same max-level character day in-day out if you want flying for your others; there's no incentive to actually explore anything.

Flying is not actually in the game yet. It will be added in a future patch, but you will have plenty of time to get your reputations to the required levels until then. There is absolutely no reason to rush for flying now.

I could do it solely on a Horde character and have no experience of the Alliance side of things at all, for example.

The differences between the factions are minor; it's only really parts of Stormheim. The difference between classes is much bigger.

It's a nice enough idea that's just been buried under yet another grindfest instead of something that actually justifies its existence.

...But the reputations are not a grind. You can't just keep killing mobs forever until you get what you need, there aren't any mobs that just give reputation. Most of it is tied to daily quests and dungeon bosses, which are done fairly quickly, and especially the former is completely different every day.

Flying makes the world a lot smaller and essentially removes all sense of danger from your environments, in addition to nullifying pretty much all obstacles. There has barely been a [i]week{I] since expansion launch.

'Or so' being the key phrase; After the third or fourth character there's nothing left to explore. Also bear in mind that I'm not talking solely about Legion; WoD had this, too, with the exact same issues.

Again, not solely talking Legion, although this will still stand when flying does arrive.

Then change it to levelling several classes through to 110? Easy fix.

Grinding =/= mob killing. Mob killing is a type of grind, but so is constant daily-questing. It's tedious and laborious.

Once again, not solely talking Legion, though I don't see it changing much from how WoD dealt with it--I.E. poorly.

I'm not against having flying hidden, as I've said at least twice now, simply against it being this locked behind walls of crap. The point that I can get it simply by playing 1 class from 1 faction, and 1 class only, still stands, and completely eliminates a huge chunk of the experience that Blizzard first claimed to want to foster. You yourself said that the changes are mostly class-based, so why not just require players to experience different classes? A clothie, leather-user, mail-user, and plate-wearer, for example, or both a ranged and a melee class, or something that actually requires you to do more than look up locations on Google, follow questlines, and grind rep on a single character? Especially when flying doesn't seem to add much at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Necros wrote:
But I want it all and I want it now!

So if you unlock flying for one character, will it work for all? Or does every character have to unlock their own? I'm guessing it's the latter?

One character should unlock it for everyone. It's what WoD did AFAIK. Having to unlock it for each character individually would be a colossal waste of time and effort that I think even Blizzard would acknowledge is too much.

 Avatar 720 wrote:


One character should unlock it for everyone. It's what WoD did AFAIK. Having to unlock it for each character individually would be a colossal waste of time and effort that I think even Blizzard would acknowledge is too much.

This is correct. I was so happy when I found out my Warrior could fly after my Lock did the achievement. It only makes sense.

I've also noticed that Blizz does one of two things, and you can tell if it'll be for a character or all characters.

Do you unlock it from a Quest (i.e. Nightfallen to Honored)? Then it's per character.

Is it unlocked via achievement? (i.e Draenor Pathfinder) Then it's for your account.

Granted this does not come into play with some PvP based achievement rewards.

I wouldn't mind if it might be a grind to get but it's account-based. I kinda like how the mounts and pets are like that now, so all my characters can fly my bronze drake or just ride around on him if they can't fly yet

 Necros wrote:
I wouldn't mind if it might be a grind to get but it's account-based. I kinda like how the mounts and pets are like that now, so all my characters can fly my bronze drake or just ride around on him if they can't fly yet

Best change Blizz did, in my opinion. I can't imagine back in the day if you won the roll on a rare mount....while on an alt character.

IDK about everyone else, but I'm actually enjoying legion quite a bit.

I really like the single player focus, class campaign, and quest scenarios. It's gotten me actually interested in the story and setting, far more so than previous expansions (pandaland).

It hasn't been very difficult (and really hasn't since WoTLK), but still, I'm enjoying exploring the new zones. I also really liked the scaling questing zones, so there wasn't a point where I had outleveled a zone, and it had no reason left for me to explore. Hit 110 a couple days ago, and it's nice to know there's still lots to do in the nightbourne city, and with my class campaign.

The garrison took a lot of flak in WoD, and it's back in limited amounts this time, and I think it's fine.

The artifact system is pretty neat, but it is becoming extremely difficult to level it. Last level took like 1,000, and then it jumped to like 7K, which seemed a bit extreme.

Overall, I have to say this is probably the most interesting expansion to play and explore since WoTLK.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
IDK about everyone else, but I'm actually enjoying legion quite a bit.

I really like the single player focus, class campaign, and quest scenarios. It's gotten me actually interested in the story and setting, far more so than previous expansions (pandaland).

It hasn't been very difficult (and really hasn't since WoTLK), but still, I'm enjoying exploring the new zones. I also really liked the scaling questing zones, so there wasn't a point where I had outleveled a zone, and it had no reason left for me to explore. Hit 110 a couple days ago, and it's nice to know there's still lots to do in the nightbourne city, and with my class campaign.

The garrison took a lot of flak in WoD, and it's back in limited amounts this time, and I think it's fine.

The artifact system is pretty neat, but it is becoming extremely difficult to level it. Last level took like 1,000, and then it jumped to like 7K, which seemed a bit extreme.

Overall, I have to say this is probably the most interesting expansion to play and explore since WoTLK.

I've personally thought it's one of the best since WotLK as well. WotLK was my favorite expansion by far. I have to wait and see what the actual raiding content looks like, since WotLK's opening Tier was amazing, but otherwise I'm completely sold. Between gearing for mythics/raids, fishing for the mount, Dalaran Undercity, grinding Honor, making money with professions, World Quests, Suramar, class hall stuff, and occasionally leveling my alts, I'm filled to the brim with stuff to do.

yeah I've pretty much always been a casual solo player that PUGs stuff, I just like exploring and seeing things but was never a fan of the guild raid idea where 40 people go to molten core for 3 pieces of loot that only the people that raid all the time are allowed to have. So far this one's been great. I checked out Pandara for like a week and then gave up, and never bothered with the last one at all. I have about 10 different characters between level 30-70, and I really hate having to do the burning crusade stuff again and again. Whenever I resub, it seems like I always end up there again doing the same old quests I already did 8 times, and a day or so later is when I walk away for another year.

So far Legion has been great though.. and I do have a free level 90 and 100 boost to get my alts higher if I want a change.

Come on, Avatar, of course it takes time and effort. The game would be meaningless if it gave you the things you want without any investment required. You'd get your stuff, and then you'd complain there is nothing meaningful to do.

Compared to the daily systems of the previous expansions - possibly aside from the story-intense daily progress of 5.0 through 5.2 (which is turned up to 11 with the Nightfallen) - Legion world quests offer more variety than any other system so far.

And I am also very happy that it does not require playing multiple classes or characters. Some players prefer one main 100%, that works fine. Some people prefer spreading their efforts between alts, that works just fine too (in Draenor, progress towards the flying achievement was accountwide).

I do not see the problem.


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 krodarklorr wrote:
WotLK's opening Tier was amazing

You had one raid copied from classic and two single-boss 'raids' that together do not even stand up to the gathered world bosses of Legion, let alone the actual raid content.

It is absurd to imply that this is even competing with masterpieces like Highmaul and the Throne of Thunder.


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 Kap'n Krump wrote:
The artifact system is pretty neat, but it is becoming extremely difficult to level it. Last level took like 1,000, and then it jumped to like 7K, which seemed a bit extreme.

Be patient and keep your artifact research rolling. It will help.

Artifact research increases the rate at which you get artifact power. Higher levels of knowledge increase your power income exponentially so you will be fine.

You seem to be arguing against positions I'm not holding; nowhere have I said it shouldn't take time and effort--I'm against there being too much of it unnecessarily existing.

And I'd be very happy if I didn't have to grind reputation. Honestly, it'd likely be far quicker to get a few characters to 110 than go through the rigmarole of daily quests and reputation grinding, especially with heirlooms being so easily accessible. The slowest part will likely be BC content, which simply hasn't seen any love since its release, but by the time you've done most of the BC dungeon quests and a chunk of HFP quests, you're already out of there.

The problem is mainly that Blizzard's intentions and what they've actually done don't seem to line up. They want people out exploring content and experiencing the game before they go flying, but then make the biggest wall to it a rep grind, which is just a case of doing the same things over, and over, and over, and works best on a single character.

Simply dropping the rep grind would be perfectly fine, or require you to have done all faction's dailies at least once. Hell, just lower the req. to revered or honoured, or make it Exalted with 1 Revered with the rest. The rep-grind makes the least sense of all the requirements; making you experience the same things again and again until you're done is the exact opposite of what was claimed they wanted to achieve. And yet, it's the biggest, most annoying part.

EDIT: Huh, apparently it already is all revered. Still, 6 factions.

EDIT2: Actually, it looks to be a bit better than WoD now. I still disagree entirely with needing to grind rep at all, but it's not nearly as bad as I thought it was.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
which is just a case of doing the same things over, and over, and over, and works best on a single character.

But here is where you are wrong. The quests are different every day, and in different places; take the Kirin Tor quests of today, which involved puzzle floors and saber racing.

And those types are, AFAIK, solely Kirin Tor dailies. The only faction in Legion you don't need for Pathfinder. The other dailies are largely "go here, kill stuff".

So do your dailies once a week then, and do what you want in the meantime. You'll still have pathfinder by the time flying is out.

 Ashiraya wrote:


You had one raid copied from classic and two single-boss 'raids' that together do not even stand up to the gathered world bosses of Legion, let alone the actual raid content.

It is absurd to imply that this is even competing with masterpieces like Highmaul and the Throne of Thunder.

Malygos was an extremely fun fight, and was rather pretty. Sartharion was very basic, but also scaled to be impossibly hard depending on how you did it, which I rather liked. And Naxxramas was old content that 1% of the player base actually got to experience, and it fit with the expansion.

Highmaul would have been good...if it wasn't the only raid you could do for 4ish months. That place got old quick. Also, Throne of Thunder wasn't the starting Tier. If we branch out, there are obviously better raids, such as Ulduar, Black Temple, and Sunwell.


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 Avatar 720 wrote:
And those types are, AFAIK, solely Kirin Tor dailies. The only faction in Legion you don't need for Pathfinder. The other dailies are largely "go here, kill stuff".

Did you finish the Emissary quest? You get to choose who you get 1500 rep with at the end. Sure, it's a "different" faction that doesn't matter for the sake of achievements, but it still gives you rep with whomever you choose.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Naxxramas.

Naxxramas was still rehashed, outdated content.

If you like things that are hard, I assume you liked Oondasta. I have such good memories of Oondasta.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Highmaul would have been good...if it wasn't the only raid you could do for 4ish months. That place got old quick

...The playerbase complained that Highmaul became irrelevant far too quickly due to the release of Blackrock Foundry, and Blizzard agrees (so they will now let Emerald Nightmare stay a bit before they release Nighthold; good for me, means I have a shot at Mythic without wiping my university studies).

I dunno if they ever did anything like this... but I always wished no dungeon would ever be outdated.. like, the monsters and the loot will scale in power based on how tough the characters are. So, you could have a high powered group get high powered monsters, but if you do a raid with 10 people everything is much tougher but the rewards are better.. there's no normal vs raid dungeon, content always scales based on who's in the instance / group / raid and the same group could get the same level stuff from Sunken Temple or anywhere else. Maybe even allowing them to be soloed for people that just want the story, but you get the best stuff if you get a big group to do it.

Then you can go places that you like that are fun for you & your friends and still get great rewards for your effort, rather than raiding a certain place just because it's the only one left that you can get anything good from.

I actually like when there is a feeling of progression.

That said, that progression has to be properly designed.

I tried Holy healing on my 110 priest last night and I quite like it. It seems a little easier compared to Discipline healing, but the quality of Dungeon Finder groups in general has been pretty low. I don't think many of the tanks have realized that this expansion gives them tools to mitigate incoming damage and self-heal and instead they just stand there and take a beating (and also pull entire fething rooms of trash because they're in a hurry).

DPS players are as clueless as they've ever been and seem to enjoy standing in gak.

I've been enjoying the newness of Legion. Not flying isn't bothering me, at all. It isn't like Draenor, where it seemed like there was a lot of empty spaaaaaaace that you had to run through, just to be asinine. The terrain in the Broken Isles is a lot more interesting, and there seems to be a lot more flight paths. And, barding. Yes.... barding makes it all ok. I can just run through mobs. They don't chase very long, at all.

What I'm not liking, so far, is the professions stuff. It's like they took the pandaland cooking and made it... worse. For cooking, it'll take 3 days to possibly invent recipes so I can level up (ETA- and there were LOOOONG quest chains as a pre-req to get to this point! Ugh). In the meantime I should farm random stuff to hopefully be useful, I guess. Skinning was easy to max out. Leatherworking... I just can't keep track of all the quest lines (skinning, leather armor, and mail armor quests). I can't even level fishing. It takes soooo many casts to get one skill point and I'm just at 715 level. Getting to 800 will be very tough.

So, I guess what's bothering me is there's too many simultaneous quest lines. I can't seem to follow one story. And I still don't know what the order hall is good for. But I'm playing my hunter so the order hall is really just a stripped down garrison with no sense of ownership... and I play a hunter because I don't like other players. Seems most other hunters feel the same way!

I've been playing my main hunter since the preorder dropped, and just hit level 107. Probably because I'm so scattered as to what I'm doing. I've been debating jumping over to my Druid to see if I can pay better attention to and follow something.

The one nice thing is I've been getting really good RNGesus blessings on the rare pets. Already have the Fledgling Kingfeather and the Stormstruck beaver... they popped up really fast, unlike the unborn val'kyr or minfernal grind.

Really? I love profession quests! There are so many little things that make the professions feel worthwhile. Such as in Court of Stars.

Speaking of Court of Stars, that dungeon is just awesome. The trash between the penultimate and last boss is great. It isn't a trash fight at all, but rather you have to attend a Nightborne nobility party and do some detective work to figure out who the Legion spy is.

I got to 110 this weekend and still tons of quests to do. I finished 3 of the zone quest lines but I still have to finish high mountain and surumar, and lots of demon hunter quests too. I kinda like the little mission app they made, where I can just go in and start a new mission when they're done rather than waiting to get home and logging in. Saves a little time.

I was working on leatherworking, I got all of the main quests done and also got a rank 3 pattern from a dungeon. But, I was kind of bummed that everything I can make is worse than the plain old green items I had, even the rank 3 pattern. Then I found out there's another set called dreadleather or something.. I was going to try and get that, but then I got the helmet for my class armor set and wondering if that will be better? Why waste the time doing the leatherworking quests if it's not gonna be as good?

Also doing world quests now.. but it seems like a bunch of them are pet battles? So now I gotta go and max out a bunch of my pets if I ever want to be able to finish all of the world quests in a zone? Don't think I wanna... too much other stuff to do right now.

Well, crafting will get better later. It just takes time.

For instance, my DK currently has ilvl 850 boots I made for myself, as I seemingly could not get any good ones to drop. Crafted items - such as, indeed, dreadleather - can reach 850 through the use of Obliterum, which you can obtain later.

Be aware that crafting gear is either going to be expensive or take a lot of material farming. It is intended to either help very active players get more gold or help raid groups gear up their people; it is not intended to be simply better than dungeon and raid gear for the common player.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Well, crafting will get better later. It just takes time.

For instance, my DK currently has ilvl 850 boots I made for myself, as I seemingly could not get any good ones to drop. Crafted items - such as, indeed, dreadleather - can reach 850 through the use of Obliterum, which you can obtain later.

Be aware that crafting gear is either going to be expensive or take a lot of material farming. It is intended to either help very active players get more gold or help raid groups gear up their people; it is not intended to be simply better than dungeon and raid gear for the common player.

I liked crafting at launch, and the quests certainly are well done in my opinion. But, apparently they hotfixed Prospecting to the point that Jewelcrafting is utterly pointless, both as a crafting profession, and as a money-maker. This has made me really sad.

So with the new trade skills in Legion, do you even need to level them up like the old way? Right out of the gate I was able to make Legion gear with leatherworking at 1 point. Or will the more high end patterns need you to have the skill level too?

No, recipes are fortunately no longer as reliant on your skill points.

oh.. do points matter at all? I noticed I could even skin legion monsters at a level of of 1. When I made a deathknight, I started hitting a level cap with herbalisim and skinning when I got to northrend.. since I powered through the last 10 levels doing those demon encounters. Thats when I decided to switch to the demon hunter.

After I finish up the zone quests and my class campaign I'm thinking about switching over to a Horde warlock and using my level 100 boost. Warlocks were always my main back in the day, my alliance warlock is in the 70's, but I check out the horde story next.

The factions only differ meaningfully in Stormheim.

Points do matter, I believe crafting professions have a minimum of 100?

Otherwise they seem to be more a measure of your progression than a limiting factor.

Been swapping between my Prot Paladin, Havoc Demon Hunter, and Frost DK - and I gotta say, the Paladin is straight boring. I feel bad saying it, but it feels like...I dunno, I'm just going through the motions and that's it. He's damn near unkillable even at 104, but...eh, maybe I'm more of a DPS kind of guy for leveling, would explain my love for Frost and Havoc.

Took some getting used to my DK again, but with Frost there's little anything mobs can do to slow me down. It's remarkably fun.

Same goes for Havoc - although I've spent less time on this class.

I do not like everything that they have done to Frost, but Sindragosa's Fury is just monstrous. Probably the coolest spell in-game, and while it has a lengthy cooldown, its damage potential in dungeons is colossal. Only Havoc and Windwalker can match it for AoE burst and Frost is no slouch in sustained AoE either thanks to Frostscythe.