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The goal is to make a balanced vanilla Marine list (traditional CAD with potential room for allies later on). As it stands I'm considering replacing one of the thunderfire cannons with a devastator squad and four lascannons in order to better deal with super-heavies. I know it's only 1500 points, but this is going to be the foundation for all my Space Marine lists for the foreseeable future.

H.Q.
- Telion

Elites: 340
- 5x Sternguard Veterans + 3x Combi-meltas + 2x Meltaguns + Drop pod = 195

- Dreadnought + Heavy flamer + Drop pod = 145

Troops: 659
- 5x Scouts + 4x Sniper rifles + 1x Missile launcher = 84
- 10x Tactical Marines + 1x Plasma gun + Melta bombs + Rhino = 195
- 10x Tactical Marines + 1x Plasma gun + Melta bombs + Rhino = 195
- 10x Tactical Marines + 1x Plasma gun + Melta bombs + Rhino = 195

Fast Attack: 115
- 5x Assault Marines + 2x Flamers + Drop pod

Heavy Support
- 5x Devastators + 4x Plasma cannons
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Thunderfire Cannon

Total: 1494/1500

The only thing you have over S7 is the scout’s ML. You are going to struggle against any reasonably meched up list.

I know you said you wanted to stick with a tradition CAD, but in this day and age, you should probably use a demi-co as your base. Which you basically have, barring a HQ swap. So it won’t be hard to shift gears later.

Telion isn’t bad

You probably want camo cloaks on the scouts

You have a lot of points sunk into troops for this point scale. If you are keeping the CAD, drop a tac squad for something with more teeth. You probably want combis on your sarges. I’d also diversify your weapons; go full melta with at least one tac squad. I like to include the heavy, even if it’s just a HB to go with the plasma, but I’m old fashioned like that.

I like the AMs, It is your only drop pod. I’d consider swapping some of the tacs over, or adding more drop assets. Right now they are a suicide unit, but don’t have a particularly strong alpha strike, or the durability to be a distraction. In your list, I might keep them with jump packs, and have them advance in the shadow of the rhinos, ready to jump out and support the tacs. If you have the points, a vet sarge with a power weapon can work well here. Also, when it comes time to hand out melta bombs, assault marines are higher on my list then tacs for those last 5 points.

Switch your devs to LCs. While I like the concept of PCs, in practice they are a little lackluster.

The TFCs are fine, but you could drop one for points elsewhere.

From a balanced list POV, you also lack any AA. Also, from a fluff standpoint, I like to have something from every slot for a balanced Ultramarine army, you need an elite.

Oh God

I'm angry at myself: I forgot to post the Elites section with my intial post -- sorry. It's there now and I think it'll have an affect on your analysis although I do like what you have to say about the Tactical Squads and Assault Marines, and I agree that the list lacks anti-air

Now that the list has been amended, you might be able to see more of the synergy that I have in mind for anti-tank and taking First Blood.

About the Scouts though, they get Stealth from Telion so there's an opportunity to save points there

Thanks again for your review

Yup, your elite section was just a little bit critical to the function of your list!

The only thing I think is worth taking the special ammo away from a sternguard is a HF. I’d just go c-meltas. If you shake free spare points, bumping the squad size up, preferably to full, is worth it.

With stealth and a bolstered cover you don’t need the cloaks, true. I blame a lack of coffee and autopilot advice.

Even with the dread/SG, I’d still swap a tac squad to melta and the devs to LCs. There are a lot more vehicles out there these days then there used to, and I find myself including more anti-armor stuff into my TAC lists.

For TAC AA, flying a single stormtalon (w/skyhammers) can work well. Even if there are no opposing flyers, it still does great for ground attack. The stalker tank is also good, but looses a lot if the skies are clear. Of corse, it does fine vs. skimmers, and there are a good number of those out there. Less generically useful, but also less points.

I agree with Nevelon.

Combis on Sternguards, not Meltaguns. Combis on Sergeants. I would drop the Dread or replace it with an Ironclad (in a Drop Pod).
Drop 1 or 2 Tac Squads or get them down to 5 man squads. Sadly they aren't that good.
Replace the PC with LC or ML. A few ablative wounds would not hurt, the first casualty you get is either the Sergeant with the Signum (BS 5) or a heavy weapon.
One or two Stormtalons with Skyhammer are cheap and do a lot of damage to flyers or even ground units with Strafing Run.

Thanks again! Here's the updated list, did I forget/miss anything?

H.Q.
- Telion

Elites: 340
- 5x Sternguard Veterans + 5x Combi-meltas + Drop pod = 195
- Dreadnought + Heavy flamer + Drop pod = 145

Troops: 459
- 5x Scouts + 4x Sniper rifles + 1x Missile launcher = 74
- 10x Tactical Marines + 1x Meltagun + Melta bombs + Rhino = 190
- 10x Tactical Marines + 1x Plasma gun + Melta bombs + Rhino = 195

Fast Attack: 230
- 5x Assault Marines + 2x Flamers + Drop pod =115
- Stormtalon Gunship + Skyhammer Missile Launcher = 115

Heavy Support
- 5x Devastators + 4x Lascannons
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Thunderfire Cannon

Total: 1429/1500

Lokks quite fun. Not sure Id run the tacticals as 10 man squads when you only have given them one extra weapon. Would consider doing 3x5 man squads instead.

Make sure you put the Thunderfire cannons in the same squad. Maximize the effect of Telions rending ability as well as increasing precision.

I don't know if Rhinos particularly mesh well with Ultramarines, without scout like White scars. A melta gun, combi melta and melta bombs with a drop pod might suit your army more then rhinos.

I think if you were going that route, you could afford to drop the devastators. The assault marines with double flamers strike me as a bit odd considering you have two thunder cannons, I guess you did it to get up to 5 pods? Not my cup of tea personally. With allot of your current list mechanised, the scouts might stick out as a soft target, so investing extra points in them is a bit iffy imo.

Just my personal opinion ofc, your list seems quite fluffy as is.

Personally I would drop the heavy flamer in favour of an assault cannon on the dreadnought. I know the multi-melta seems good, but if he's on his own he's not likely to take out a tank with the one shot. But with 4 rending S6 shots, well, he might make a mess of some back armor. But if he needs to deal with other threats, the assault cannon would likely be more useful than the melta. Plus you have a lot of template weapons already.

I'm considering replacing the Assault Marines with a Devastator Squad and giving them at least 2-3 heavy flamers (they'd still get the drop pod, i'd just get more flamer templates). Am I insane or is this viable? The only downsides I can see are:

1. it takes up a heavy support slot if i decide to upgrade my list beyond 1500 points
2. if/when i want to upgrade my army to a gladius strike force, i'll need something like an assault squad anyways, so the switch isn't as smooth

evilbuttertart wrote:
Personally I would drop the heavy flamer in favour of an assault cannon on the dreadnought. I know the multi-melta seems good, but if he's on his own he's not likely to take out a tank with the one shot. But with 4 rending S6 shots, well, he might make a mess of some back armor. But if he needs to deal with other threats, the assault cannon would likely be more useful than the melta. Plus you have a lot of template weapons already.

The Dread is there to support the Sternguard Vets. Essentially the army works something like this:

Attack:
- Sternguard and Dread deep-strike on turn-1 aiming to take first blood
- Devs and/or Scouts can lend ranged support
- Assault marines can cause trouble in the opponents' backlines but I don't count on them arriving at a specific time
- Having 3 pods guarantees that i can choose to drop 2/3 on the first turn

Mid-field
- Tac squads and rhinos capture objectives and get linebreaker where/when possible
- Stormtalon supports the tac squads
- Assault marines can lend support to the mid-field but I don't count on them arriving at a specific time

Backfield
- Telion buffs the scouts and thunderfire cannons
- Thunderfire cannons support scouts and devs by fortifying ruins
- Telion and scouts target monstrous creatures, targets of opportunity, camp an objective and support attempts to claim first blood
- Thunderfire cannons target troops, hordes -- almost anything in the game and support attempts to claim first blood
- Devs target vehicles and support attempts to claim first blood

The ultimate ally would be coteaz with jokaero weaponsmiths to protect the backfield but im going for a pure marine, oldschool CAD theme (for now). either coteaz or some counter-assault unit

hivefleetantaeus wrote:Thanks again! Here's the updated list, did I forget/miss anything?

H.Q.
- Telion

Elites: 340
- 5x Sternguard Veterans + 5x Combi-meltas + Drop pod = 195
- Dreadnought + Heavy flamer + Drop pod = 145

Troops: 459
- 5x Scouts + 4x Sniper rifles + 1x Missile launcher = 74
- 10x Tactical Marines + 1x Meltagun + Melta bombs + Rhino = 190
- 10x Tactical Marines + 1x Plasma gun + Melta bombs + Rhino = 195

Fast Attack: 230
- 5x Assault Marines + 2x Flamers + Drop pod (35) =115
- Stormtalon Gunship + Skyhammer Missile Launcher = 115

Heavy Support
- 5x Devastators + 4x Lascannons
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Thunderfire Cannon

Total: 1429/1500

hivefleetantaeus wrote:I'm considering replacing the Assault Marines with a Devastator Squad and giving them at least 2-3 heavy flamers (they'd still get the drop pod, i'd just get more flamer templates). Am I insane or is this viable? The only downsides I can see are:

1. it takes up a heavy support slot if i decide to upgrade my list beyond 1500 points
2. if/when i want to upgrade my army to a gladius strike force, i'll need something like an assault squad anyways, so the switch isn't as smooth

HFs are restricted to Sternguard and LotD. Can’t put them on Devs. If you want to put devs in a pod, go with grav cannons. While expensive, they are salvo 3/5, so still get to murder things on the drop, and you will be in range.

I like AsC dreads, but the MM can work as well. It looks like you have some spare points (assuming the 1429/1500 is correct) so you could upgrade if you wanted. He also might benefit from venerable status, or being swapped for an ironclad.

Combis on the tac sarges would be nice. So would heavies. Tac doctrine lets you TL them for a round, and you might not always be moving.

I’ve had a lot of fun putting Cassius in a drop pod with assault marines, if you ever want to swap out Talion.

Hmmm you're right about the devs. I think I'll keep it simple and stick with assault marines. the idea is to have a cheap, throwaway speed-bump/harassing unit

 Nevelon wrote:
It looks like you have some spare points (assuming the 1429/1500 is correct) so you could upgrade if you wanted. He also might benefit from venerable status, or being swapped for an ironclad.

Combis on the tac sarges would be nice. So would heavies. Tac doctrine lets you TL them for a round, and you might not always be moving.

I’ve had a lot of fun putting Cassius in a drop pod with assault marines, if you ever want to swap out Talion.

Good eye. Actually yes, I like to leave a points-vacuum whenever possible for army list modifications until I've actually got the models in my collection. That being said any recommendations on what to do with the points are appreciated.

I bought the Razorback kit (to use as rhino) and the Space Marine Battleforce box set (Captain, Dreadnought and 10 Marines) so it'd be a bit redundant if I bought another Dreadnought to act as an ironclad. not sure how opponents would feel about me claiming that a regular dread has the venerable status but if that's normal with space marine players, then i'm cool with the idea

If I gave the sarges combi weapons, which do you recommend? melta for the melta tac squad, and plasma for the plasma tac squad? what about heavy weapons? and why do you recommend cassius over telion? i feel that there's some good synergy with telion on the backfield, but it sounds like you've got some good reasons to recommend cassius

i have a lot of questions, so thanks again for the ongoing support

A matching combi for the squad’s special is the canned answer to sarges. The squad wants to be shooting that type of target, so you get an extra boost of the right kind of firepower.

In general you want the heavy in the squad to shoot the same target as well. Nothing is worse then having the squad sit back and watch as the one guy with the lascannon takes his shot. Exception can be made if you plan on combat squadding. I tend to field MM/M, c-melta on the sarge as one of my go-to tac squads. HB/F. c-flamer is another one. If you want to go plasma, I’d probably lean towards a LC. It’s AP2 with a high S, so is going to mess up the same thing plasma does. Grav cannon would also work, but are expensive.

While the ven dread kit is a separate box, it’s built and geared the same as a normal one. I doubt anyone would give you problems, but that’s a local issue, everyplace is different. You could just take the regular dread and pack the purity seals/extra bits on him to bling him up a little, if you want to model the venerable status. The ironclad has significantly different gear, so is an actual proxy.

Not everyone likes chaplains. According to the internet, assault is dead. In competitive circles, they may be right. At the more casual FLGS (like mine) it’s just fine. While librarians might give better buffs to the squad, there is some risk involved. Chaplains just buff via good old reliable hatred and zeal. They do one thing, but they do it well and reliably. And that thing is making assault units more choppy. Assault marines are a bully unit. Find someone weaker then you, take them out. The chaplain allows them to take on bigger threats. And Cassius is a very good chaplain for his points. His one big drawback is a lack of delivery system. But if you are podding assault marines, the fact that he is stuck on foot doesn’t matter. His combi flamer adds another shot to the squad, and he still has a BP for the extra CC attack. FNP and T6 makes him significantly tougher then normal, and his points are reasonable.

One question I ask whenever building/critiquing a list is “What is the HQ doing, and where is he going” For the most part our HQs are designed for CC, so sticking them in an appropriate squad works well. While a captain makes a better beatstick, the chaplain makes the squad better. There are pros and cons to both.

Talion buffing in the backfield is fine. There is nothing wrong with that. He’s got a job, a place to be, and he’s good at doing it.

But sometimes you just want to run out and smash some filthy xenos with righteous fervor. “I’ve had a lot of fun with...” does not necessarily mean “this is the best/most efficient build” For me, the fluff, lore, imagery, and models are a key part of the game, as well as the points and stats. And I love chaplains. To me, they are an iconic part of the setting, and encapsulate the holy crusading warrior aspect of the Space Marines. And periodically you need to get that on the table.

Mechanically, if you want to move over to formations, you need a captain or a chaplain. Captains are great, but you need to invest in their gear to get the most out of them. Chaplains work well bare-bones.

I would drop all the tacticals down to 5 guys, buy combi weapons for the sergeants, and either pick up a librarian or ally in an inquisitor with the psyker and a warband with a psyker for an extra charge. This gives you some pyschic defense and a cheap utility character. Telepathy and Divination are powerful in any army and can give you an edge.

Thanks for all the help everyone. I think that in the end I really like Telion, but a Chaplain could be something I'd add to switch things up. I also agree that the army lacks psychic support, but I'm really into the idea of full ten-man Tactical squads in rhinos; I'll keep the idea of a Librarian in mind. Here's the final list for anyone who's interested:

H.Q.
- Telion

Elites: 340
- 5x Sternguard Veterans + 5x Combi-meltas + Drop pod = 195
- Dreadnought + Heavy flamer + Drop pod = 145

Troops: 509
- 5x Scouts + 4x Sniper rifles + 1x Missile launcher = 74
- 10x Tactical Marines + 1x Meltagun + Multimelta + Combi-melta + Melta bombs + Rhino = 210
- 10x Tactical Marines + 1x Plasma gun + Lascannon + Combi-plasma +Melta bombs + Rhino = 225

Fast Attack: 230
- 5x Assault Marines + 2x Flamers + Drop pod =115
- Stormtalon Gunship + Skyhammer Missile Launcher = 115

Heavy Support
- 5x Devastators + 4x Lascannons
- 2x Thunderfire Cannons

Total: 1479/1500