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I'm a little frustrated about HQ choices being incapable of taking significant weapons with very few exceptions.

A Chaos Lord/ Sorcerer Lord/ Space Marine Chapter Master/ Captain in Terminator Armor is incapable of taking ANY heavy weapons despite their superior ballistic skill.

The Grey Knight grandmasters can and they work very well for them. I'm just confused why the big, badass warlords of the Space Marine/ CSM armies refuse to take big, useful guns.

The closest CSM get to it is the Baleflamer (meh) and the closest the SM get to it is their relic bolter. Why can't my Lord in terminator armor run around with a Reaper autocannon or my Space Marine Chpater Master lay down some pain with an assault cannon or a cyclone missile launcher?

Why can't the Ork Warboss actually take a big shoota, rokkit launcher or a flashy gun? I especially don't understand it in the scavenger-society of Orks and CSM. The biggest/ strongest get the best equipment. So why not the Lords and Warbosses?

Gk captains don't get heavy weapon options (assault and salvo) although I doubt that minor correction helps ease the pain. Possibly because they are the army leader, whilst heavy weapons play more of a supportive role. I don't understand why they can't take special weapons though, surely if the guy in charge wants to take a melta, no one would say no.

I know where you're coming from.

It might well be a problem of GW applying current/historical military logic to 40k.

In the past, officers never carried rifles because they were supposed to be commanding their troops. Hence, they should be aware of what's going on around them - rather than looking down the barrel of a rifle. In more recent times though, I believe some officers are issued rifles - especially if they're going to be seeing action.

Anyway, the reason this doesn't work in 40k is that it generally assumes that the officers are leaders, rather than fighters. But, in 40k, most HQs act more like medieval kings - leading charges of knight-equivalent troops into the heart of the enemy. Moreover, there's almost never an advantage to an HQ giving orders instead of firing himself (nor any disadvantage for a leader shooting/fighting instead of commanding).

My point is, GW seem to have got it into their heads that officers only carry pistols, but didn't stop to consider why.

Really, there should either be a bonus to a squad if its sergeant/attached-HQ doesn't fire, or else HQs should be allowed to take heavier weapons (within reason).

This is 40k - your big fancy HQ's are meant to be charging forth into glorious close combat, not shooting!

 vipoid wrote:
But, in 40k, most HQs act more like medieval kings - leading charges of knight-equivalent troops into the heart of the enemy.

The interesting thing is important most lords, generals, kings, etc didn't actually engage in close combat unless it was relatively safe to do in a winning battle. Some where more cavalier than others about riding into the thick of things to earn glory but unless you where a lesser lord or fledgling knight out to make a name for yourself then it was wiser to hang back and command while the common foot soldiers would fight.

 vipoid wrote:
My point is, GW seem to have got it into their heads that officers only carry pistols, but didn't stop to consider why.

Really, there should either be a bonus to a squad if its sergeant/attached-HQ doesn't fire, or else HQs should be allowed to take heavier weapons (within reason).

Tau basically does this with the Ethereal benefiting the nearby infantry with added firepower, leadership, mobility, and/or increased resilience. Fire Blades also increase the firepower of their unit with more efficient shooting. Buffmander as we all know makes a unit incredibly deadly with optimized shooting potential. Guard also does this with its officers issuing orders to the troops to make them more efficient in their actions or keep them motivated to stay in the fight. Nids have their whole synapse system is a similar thing although most of the synapses creatures are designed to directly fight over hanging back.

With Orks and Chaos it makes sense that they are more concerned about killing than issuing orders while Necrons seem to lack the need for specialized leadership given their very mechanical/robotic nature. Eldar are just a bunch of gitz so there lack of orders issuing is to be expected . Space Marine commanders tend to get very hammy when left to issue orders so I think its encouraged that they get stuck into close combat instead of standing around annoying everyone near them

There is the Techpriest Dominus, who is very shooty and otherwise is most useful as a support character. Techmarines (previously MotF) and Ordo Xenos Inquisitors can carry conversion beamers. There's Sergeant Telion(who is a HQ unit now) and, more obscurely, there's Lias Issadon, Chapter Master of the Raptors, who's basically Sternguard HQ. Still, they are definitely outnumbered by melee focused characters...

Flyrants all day!

Unfortunately, I think it also has to do with GW's arbitrary ideas of what the designated roles are for certain HQ units. Even though Chaos Lords/Space Marine captains should be the "build-a-commander" HQ, with a potential in between point of the specialized roles of techmarines/chaplains, they instead shoe-horn them into being CC beatsticks. They give the illusion of choice with combi-weapons, but ultimately push you towards the plethora of CC weapons they have access to. You're pretty much forced just to take a techmarine on a bike with a conversion beamer if you want ranged. Chaos, as usual, doesn't even get that since the warpsmith has no options beyond their built in meltagun+flamer.

Orks have a similar issue, Warbosses can take kombi-weapons but the only real viable option is the PK. If Orks want a ranged HQ we have to settle for the Big Mek SAG. With things like formations its clear GW is more interested in prescribing what models you should take moreso than letting you figure out things on your own.

 Grimskul wrote:
Unfortunately, I think it also has to do with GW's arbitrary ideas of what the designated roles are for certain HQ units. Even though Chaos Lords/Space Marine captains should be the "build-a-commander" HQ, with a potential in between point of the specialized roles of techmarines/chaplains, they instead shoe-horn them into being CC beatsticks. They give the illusion of choice with combi-weapons, but ultimately push you towards the plethora of CC weapons they have access to. You're pretty much forced just to take a techmarine on a bike with a conversion beamer if you want ranged. Chaos, as usual, doesn't even get that since the warpsmith has no options beyond their built in meltagun+flamer.

Orks have a similar issue, Warbosses can take kombi-weapons but the only real viable option is the PK. If Orks want a ranged HQ we have to settle for the Big Mek SAG. With things like formations its clear GW is more interested in prescribing what models you should take moreso than letting you figure out things on your own.

I have to agree with this. I tend to have trouble imagining my Captain/Chapter Master doing more than just charging at the enemy and sucker punching him. Even though they're described in the fluff as master tacticians a Captain/Chapter Master's primary role remains as beatstick. Kind of a shame.

 War Kitten wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Unfortunately, I think it also has to do with GW's arbitrary ideas of what the designated roles are for certain HQ units. Even though Chaos Lords/Space Marine captains should be the "build-a-commander" HQ, with a potential in between point of the specialized roles of techmarines/chaplains, they instead shoe-horn them into being CC beatsticks. They give the illusion of choice with combi-weapons, but ultimately push you towards the plethora of CC weapons they have access to. You're pretty much forced just to take a techmarine on a bike with a conversion beamer if you want ranged. Chaos, as usual, doesn't even get that since the warpsmith has no options beyond their built in meltagun+flamer.

Orks have a similar issue, Warbosses can take kombi-weapons but the only real viable option is the PK. If Orks want a ranged HQ we have to settle for the Big Mek SAG. With things like formations its clear GW is more interested in prescribing what models you should take moreso than letting you figure out things on your own.

I have to agree with this. I tend to have trouble imagining my Captain/Chapter Master doing more than just charging at the enemy and sucker punching him. Even though they're described in the fluff as master tacticians a Captain/Chapter Master's primary role remains as beatstick. Kind of a shame.

I think what they missed out on was the very easy (and fluffy!) options of taking "Master of..." upgrades to denote what company your captain is from and their specialty.

(i.e.)

Master of the Fleet (15 points): As long as he is on the field, you may choose to have either a +1 or -1 modifier for your reserve rolls.

Master of the Armoury (30 points): Your Captain gains access to the Special and Heavy Weapons wargear section and may make any one of his ranged weapons master-crafted.

Master of the Marches (25 points): All friendly Space Marine units in your army may use his Ld of 10 for morale, pinning and leadership tests.

And so on and so forth. There's easy equivalents to Chaos Lords for this as well, but under other things like "Siege Lord" for Iron Warriors, "Dark Occultist" for Word Bearers...etc.

Another easy way of addressing this issue of just being a beatstick rather than demonstrating any tactical abilities would be just allowing HQ choices to choose what Warlord Traits they start with (though this would obviously have to come at a points cost since some are obviously better than others).

I think that removing the random generation aspect of a Warlord trait would allow them to remove the place-holder ones. When someone is generating 18 warlord traits, some of them are obviously place-holders. More-over it stops characters from getting completely redundant ones. Why does a flying dakka Hive Tyrant care about Furious-charge? Or a Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut care about having Move Through Cover (Ruins)?

In terms of giving characters incentive to not fight or shoot guns, the Sergeant of the Devastators and Longfangs gives the squad plenty of incentive to keep the Sarg from shooting. I think that THAT is what Warlord traits should be.

Do you want your Lord to run around in the back-field, giving your Devastators, Flash Gitz, whatever, +1 BS or re-roll 1s or manipulating reserves by simply NOT BEING DEPLOYED? I mean, how awesome of a mechanic would that be? My Warlord is not on the table right now, he's busy orchestrating the war around your ears. Every turn the warlord is in reserves he or she has a determined effect. Eventually the situation is too dire, the Warlord too arrogant, or glory-hungry to hold back, and like a video game boss, shows up. While gone the warlord can remotely manipulating battlefield debris (comms relays/ gun emplacements/ etc) by turning them on and shooting them or shutting them down. +1 Bonus to other reserves as he coordinates the conflict to redirect forces to his location. A masterful tactical plan that needs her to arrive at the nick of time in a heroic intervention, providing a guaranteed arrival on a turn of your choosing through the method of your choosing (Deep Strike, Outflank) or whichever method your warlord has available.

Then give the Warlord the ability to choose weapons that reflect that. Of all the races Tyranids and Tau have the most appropriate warlords for this game-style. It just makes no sense to me that Cato Sicarius can't scoop up a lascannon and take a pot-shot while he's directing his Devastators?

 Kraytirous wrote:
I'm a little frustrated about HQ choices being incapable of taking significant weapons with very few exceptions.

A Chaos Lord/ Sorcerer Lord/ Space Marine Chapter Master/ Captain in Terminator Armor is incapable of taking ANY heavy weapons despite their superior ballistic skill.

The Grey Knight grandmasters can and they work very well for them. I'm just confused why the big, badass warlords of the Space Marine/ CSM armies refuse to take big, useful guns.

The closest CSM get to it is the Baleflamer (meh) and the closest the SM get to it is their relic bolter. Why can't my Lord in terminator armor run around with a Reaper autocannon or my Space Marine Chpater Master lay down some pain with an assault cannon or a cyclone missile launcher?

Why can't the Ork Warboss actually take a big shoota, rokkit launcher or a flashy gun? I especially don't understand it in the scavenger-society of Orks and CSM. The biggest/ strongest get the best equipment. So why not the Lords and Warbosses?

What kind of pink-panty-wearing Space Marines and Orks are you playing, Son? There's not a Space Marine commander or Ork Warboss in the 41st Millenium who would dare be caught sniping enemies from afar when he can be bringing the Light of the Emperor to some heretic's face with a thunder hammer or krumpin' some beakies with the pointy end of a 'uge choppa.

It sounds like Tau might be more your thing.

 Vankraken wrote:

The interesting thing is important most lords, generals, kings, etc didn't actually engage in close combat unless it was relatively safe to do in a winning battle. Some where more cavalier than others about riding into the thick of things to earn glory but unless you where a lesser lord or fledgling knight out to make a name for yourself then it was wiser to hang back and command while the common foot soldiers would fight.

Oh, indeed, but you take my point?

Outside of a few exceptions, most leaders in 40k are the 'lead-from-the-front' kind. Moreover, any leader you field in 40k should be kitted out for frontline duty - because that's where they're going to be.

 Vankraken wrote:

Tau basically does this with the Ethereal benefiting the nearby infantry with added firepower, leadership, mobility, and/or increased resilience. Fire Blades also increase the firepower of their unit with more efficient shooting. Buffmander as we all know makes a unit incredibly deadly with optimized shooting potential. Guard also does this with its officers issuing orders to the troops to make them more efficient in their actions or keep them motivated to stay in the fight. Nids have their whole synapse system is a similar thing although most of the synapses creatures are designed to directly fight over hanging back.

Bear in mind though that IG leaders can still shoot and issue orders just fine - which was my point. Likewise, synapse is only dependant on range - the synapse creatures themselves can still move, cast, shoot and fight with no issues.

Chaos, as usual, doesn't even get that since the warpsmith has no options beyond their built in meltagun+flamer.

Actually, they can be one of the shootier ones - the Burning Brand Of Skalathrax is short range, but one of the most lethal shooting weapons in the game within its field of fire.

But yeah.... It's very much a thing that most HQ characters are supposed to 'heroically' lead the charge.

It tends to be the 'mechanic' analogues who can be shooty characters - a Big Mek, for example, can take a Shokk Attack Gun, which (when it works right) produces a pretty big kaboom. The aforementioned conversion beamer master of the forge. Company Command Squads can take a master of ordnance and an integral heavy weapons team. Most Tau characters can be pretty shooty, and a necron catacomb command barge can fling a lot of shots with his staff of light plus the barge's guns.

Oh. And Guard Tank Commanders.

Daemons can take an Exalted Flamer as an HQ and they come with a torrent s5 ap3 flamer and d3 lascannon shots at 18" range. Problem is they are both heavy weapons and don't have a way to get relentless (other then trying cast Endurance on them)

Well let's see.

Ethereal, Fireblade, Everything but Anva and Farsight: shooting Hq.

Oddly enough most Nid HQs can build shooting most famous obv the flyrant.

Inquisition has Conversion Beamers, Servo Skulls, and Krazypantsoff.

Orks have Big Meks (kmb basic gun, Shokk attack gun and tellyporta Blasta, and can also have a KFF) and Kaptin Badrukk.

IG have company commanders, and tank commanders/Pask. Since there might as well not be IG special characters that's the whole book.

Eldar have Farseers that are 99% psychic buff oriented. Also fuegan, sniper dude, dark reaper dude.

DE HQs aren't allowed to have fun but you can at least take blasters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd say less than half the HQs overall are shooting focused. If you don't count psykers as shooting focused.

"Just cause something is true for space marines doesn't mean it's true for everyone"

 Kraytirous wrote:
I'm a little frustrated about HQ choices being incapable of taking significant weapons with very few exceptions.

A Chaos Lord/ Sorcerer Lord/ Space Marine Chapter Master/ Captain in Terminator Armor is incapable of taking ANY heavy weapons despite their superior ballistic skill.

The Grey Knight grandmasters can and they work very well for them. I'm just confused why the big, badass warlords of the Space Marine/ CSM armies refuse to take big, useful guns.

The closest CSM get to it is the Baleflamer (meh) and the closest the SM get to it is their relic bolter. Why can't my Lord in terminator armor run around with a Reaper autocannon or my Space Marine Chpater Master lay down some pain with an assault cannon or a cyclone missile launcher?

Why can't the Ork Warboss actually take a big shoota, rokkit launcher or a flashy gun? I especially don't understand it in the scavenger-society of Orks and CSM. The biggest/ strongest get the best equipment. So why not the Lords and Warbosses?

the land raider excelsior/rhino primaris has lascannons as well not to mention a grav cannon and twin linked plasma gun

sammael has a plasma cannon on corvex or a tl assault cannon and tl hb in sableclaw.
pappa smurf has a twin linked heavy bolter

pask technically counts since he can be an HQ he can technically wield any weapon a leman russ chassis and carry

dont even get me started on veteran sargeant kronus




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoonBandito wrote:
This is 40k - your big fancy HQ's are meant to be charging forth into glorious close combat, not shooting!

tell that to the losers who thought 6th edition would be a good idea to print, and those who thought that overwatch was a fun game mechanic (really its more like a reflex than a mechanic, theres no choice to overwatch it just happens). the sad reality is that if you cant carry at least a heavy bolter like weapon the competitive community could honestly care less about your ability to CC which is sad really, shooting combat is devoid of any sense of personality. melee is a personal style of warfare that is designed to make a battle epic, but with such an acceleration in the arms race of 40k releases its likely it will never come back and be meaningful again like honestly, if you sat down and told a competitive opponent that there would be surprise rules in your next game, and told them they couldnt shoot a single gun for the entire game they would probably just shut down on the table. they would have built their whole army around obliterating you in the shooting phase that their army might as well spend the game throwing stones and using harsh words to try and kill you. im serious here the one guy you brought with a power axe might go on to kill his entire army

Inquisitors can take a conversion beamer.
Grey Knight Brother Captains can take Psycannons/Psilencers/Incinerators
Tech-Priest Dominus gets the only Volkite weapon in the game.
CCS can take heavy weapon team.
Techmarines are a walking Arsenal (Plasma-Cutter, Flamer + Combi-Weapon).
SM Captains can duel-wield pistols.

I'm really not seeing the issue here....
Or are you after Davian Thule type captains where they wield Heavy Bolters?


Edit: Oh. And Pask has a goddamn tank.

nudibranch wrote:
There is the Techpriest Dominus, who is very shooty and otherwise is most useful as a support character. Techmarines (previously MotF) and Ordo Xenos Inquisitors can carry conversion beamers. There's Sergeant Telion(who is a HQ unit now) and, more obscurely, there's Lias Issadon, Chapter Master of the Raptors, who's basically Sternguard HQ. Still, they are definitely outnumbered by melee focused characters...

Don't forget that you can give Space Marine Captains some pretty cool Relic Boltguns to make pseudo-Lias Issodons!
There's "The Primarch's Wrath"(S4 AP4 Salvo 3/5, Master-Crafted, Shred) in the Chapter Relics list in the main book and Ex Tenebris(S4 AP5 Assault 3, Rending, Precision Shots) in the Ravenspire Relics from Kau'yon.

Take Lias Issodon as your Warlord, and a pair of Commanders--one with each of the aforementioned Relics and you have some meeeeeeeeeeeeean shooters.

Gunslinger HQs are a good way to make use of their high ballistic skill - twin plasma or inferno pistols can really put the hurt on the enemy.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Gunslinger HQs are a good way to make use of their high ballistic skill - twin plasma or inferno pistols can really put the hurt on the enemy.

That's really expensive and short-ranged though.

Use Cypher... Shootist HG in the game. BS 10 - longer range pistols, plasma that doesn't get hot, run and shoot or just shoot twice... And you use your guns in close combat.

That doesn't change the fact that it's still a logical loophole in the game. Why can't my Chaos Lord in terminator armor take a reaper autocannon or a heavy flamer? Why can't my Space Marine Chapter Master with Thunder-hammer/ Stormshield in Terminator Armor take a Cyclone Missile Launcher?

I'm not saying that there are no HQ choices with access to shooting weapons, I'm saying that it's frustrating that three of the most iconic HQ choices in the game are incapable of having any impact on the game aside from melee.

Yeah, its always bugged me that terminator HQs cant take, assault cannons(auto cannons) or even the cyclone! Maybe i want them to be effective no matter where they are on the field they are usually expensive and supposed to be total badass, let them have some decent ranged weaponry.

I don't think it'd be a bad idea to offer certain weapons. While I'm not certain on offering CML's, Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers would be cool on Terminator HQ's.