I must be blind. (Tau Cadre questions)

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**notredameguy10**

Kanluwen wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
They MUST SHOOT to participate in the Coordinated Firepower attack, ergo you need to be in range.

There is no requirement in 7th edition to be within range of any of your weapons to pick a unit as a target. The unit shoots at the coordinated firepower target, finds that all of its weapons are out of range, and finishes resolving its shooting without accomplishing anything.

What part of "MUST SHOOT" is so difficult to comprehend?

If you cannot see the target and cannot reach it with a weapon in the squad, you cannot participate in the Combined Attack. Nowhere does it say that you may participate in the attack even if you cannot actually shoot the target.

That also removes Buffmanders from being able to participate!

No it doesn't. The unit still shoots (picking a target, checking LOS, etc), even if no individual models within the unit fire any weapons.

"MUST SHOOT".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Since they cannot Shoot, they cannot participate in the Coordinated Firepower attack.

The unit shoots. An individual model within the unit does not.

They MUST SHOOT to participate in the Coordinated Firepower attack, ergo you need to be in range.

That also removes Buffmanders from being able to participate!

Must. Must. Must. Must.

If i have a unit with a missile launcher and a boltor, am I still able to shoot at a target 30" away using just the missile launcher? Yes right?

is the UNIT still shooting? Yes right?

Does that mean every model in that unit is firing their gun? NOPE

If the UNIT must perform a Shooting Attack, then at least one model must be able to do so.

now you are just sounding like a child having a temper tantraum.

Reread the rules for shooting. You do not have to be in range to pick a unit to "shoot".

Also, you are convenentialy forgetting the SECOND HALF OF THE SENTENCE: resolving their shots as if one unit. They are no longer separate units. they are one unit.

**Kanluwen**

I suggest you reread the rules for shooting.

In order to perform a Shooting Attack(a REQUIREMENT FOR JOINING IN THIS ABILITY), you need to be able to go through all 7 stages of the Shooting Sequence with the unit.

If you cannot pass step 2, you do not perform a Shooting Attack.

**notredameguy10**

Kanluwen wrote:
I suggest you reread the rules for shooting.

In order to perform a Shooting Attack(a REQUIREMENT FOR JOINING IN THIS ABILITY), you need to be able to go through all 7 stages of the Shooting Sequence with the unit.

If you cannot pass step 2, you do not perform a Shooting Attack.

Lets go through the steps of CFP

1.) Unit A shoots at enemy unit
2.) Unit B who is not within range with their own weapons join Unit A.
3.) Since they are resolving their shots AS IF ONE UNIT, Unit A and Unit B are considered ONE UNIT for the purposes of firing.
4.) Now, as one unit, any guns not in range cannot fire

**Peregrine**

Kanluwen wrote:
What part of "MUST SHOOT" is so difficult to comprehend?

I don't know. What part of it aren't you comprehending?

If you cannot see the target and cannot reach it with a weapon in the squad, you cannot participate in the Combined Attack. Nowhere does it say that you may participate in the attack even if you cannot actually shoot the target.

No such rule exists in 7th edition. The unit shoots at a target regardless of what weapons it actually resolves, and is committed to its target before it even checks to see which models/weapons are in range. The fact that, once the unit starts shooting, no individual models roll dice is irrelevant.

If the UNIT must perform a Shooting Attack, then at least one model must be able to do so.

Please quote the rule stating this, because you're just making stuff up.

**carldooley**

my understanding is that split fire is still a thing (Target Locks), on top of which the Command link drone allows the entire unit to reroll ones as long as its target is within its range (unless shadowsun wants to contribute), and the buffmander can as well, provided it joined a unit and has no weapons of its own.

This gets around the O'Vesa Star restrictions? I was looking forward to using the command link drone on a unit of triptides? but why limit it there - especially when 2 of them would have target locks?

**Peregrine**

Kanluwen wrote:
If you cannot pass step 2, you do not perform a Shooting Attack.

You pass step 2. You just don't do anything interesting in that step.

**Kanluwen**

notredameguy10 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
I suggest you reread the rules for shooting.

In order to perform a Shooting Attack(a REQUIREMENT FOR JOINING IN THIS ABILITY), you need to be able to go through all 7 stages of the Shooting Sequence with the unit.

If you cannot pass step 2, you do not perform a Shooting Attack.

Lets go through the steps of CFP

1.) Unit A shoots at enemy unit
2.) Unit B who is not within range with their own weapons join Unit A.
3.) Since they are resolving their shots AS IF ONE UNIT, Unit A and Unit B are considered ONE UNIT for the purposes of firing.
4.) Now, as one unit, any guns not in range cannot fire

And what, praytell, does "MUST MAKE A SHOOTING ATTACK" mean?

I mean since we're just ignoring that you MUST MAKE A SHOOTING ATTACK, I guess I can now roll 2+ to Hit on Ballistic Skill for since I guess "must" now means "may".

**notredameguy10**

Kanluwen wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
I suggest you reread the rules for shooting.

In order to perform a Shooting Attack(a REQUIREMENT FOR JOINING IN THIS ABILITY), you need to be able to go through all 7 stages of the Shooting Sequence with the unit.

If you cannot pass step 2, you do not perform a Shooting Attack.

Lets go through the steps of CFP

1.) Unit A shoots at enemy unit
2.) Unit B who is not within range with their own weapons join Unit A.
3.) Since they are resolving their shots AS IF ONE UNIT, Unit A and Unit B are considered ONE UNIT for the purposes of firing.
4.) Now, as one unit, any guns not in range cannot fire

And what, praytell, does "MUST MAKE A SHOOTING ATTACK" mean?

I mean since we're just ignoring that you MUST MAKE A SHOOTING ATTACK, I guess I can now roll 2+ to Hit on Ballistic Skill for since I guess "must" now means "may".

They ARE still shooting at the same target. Their weapons are just out of range.

**Kanluwen**

Not worth the effort.

**Peregrine**

Kanluwen wrote:
Per page 30 of the BRB, a unit may choose a target, which you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting.

Now please cite the rule that says "if you are not in range of at least one weapon you may not shoot". If such a rule exists it should be there, since the rules for picking a target do explicitly say that if you can't draw LOS from at least one model in the shooting unit the target is invalid and you have to pick a different one. Otherwise the line about checking range is just a reminder that you can measure before you commit to your target, and make sure that you are making a good decision.

PS: you won't find the rule because no such rule exists in 7th.

How do you perform a Shooting Attack without having range, Peregrine?

You declare the target, select any weapons you want to fire, resolve those weapons, and then end the attack. Selecting zero weapons to fire is still a valid choice.

**notredameguy10**

Kanluwen wrote:
Not worth the effort.

You need to check range and LOS, but nowhere in the rulebook does it says they NEED to be in range to target them as shooting. It specifically says that LOS is the only thing needed to choose a unit as a target

**Kanluwen**

notredameguy10 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Not worth the effort.

You need to check range and LOS, but nowhere in the rulebook does it says they NEED to be in range to target them as shooting. It specifically says that LOS is the only thing needed to choose a unit as a target

Read page 30, under "Choose a Target"

Warhammer 40,000: The Rules wrote:Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting.

So yes. You DO need to be in range to target them for shooting.

**Peregrine**

Kanluwen wrote:
So yes. You DO need to be in range to target them as shooting.

No you do not. Please stop inventing words that are not there. The rule reminds you to measure before committing and make sure that you like the range you're at, but at no point does it tell you that the target is invalid if you aren't within range of at least one weapon (like it does with LOS).

**notredameguy10**

Kanluwen wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Not worth the effort.

You need to check range and LOS, but nowhere in the rulebook does it says they NEED to be in range to target them as shooting. It specifically says that LOS is the only thing needed to choose a unit as a target

Read page 30, under "Choose a Target"

Warhammer 40,000: The Rules wrote:Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting.

So yes. You DO need to be in range to target them for shooting.

I am look right at that and nowhere does it say you need to be in range to be able to choose your oppoenents unit as a target. Of course you won't be able to shoot anything if you are out of range, but you can still declare them as the unit you are choosing to target.

As a side note, previous editions of the rules had you select an opponent BEFORE you measured. Meaning I could choose a unit across the board with a unit having only bolters. They changed it simply to allow you to measure beforehand to make sure your in range. there is no rule, anywhere in the rulebook that says the enemy unit needs to be in range of your guns to target.

**Kanluwen**

Whatever. You're not worth my time, either of you.

**Peregrine**

Kanluwen wrote:
Whatever. You're not worth my time, either of you.

IOW, "I can't find any source to support my claim that the rule exists, so rather than admit that I'm wrong I'll just tell you how much you suck".

**Vector Strike**

carldooley wrote:
I got a hardcopy of the new tau codex the other day, and I have several questions.
1. Where is this strD seeker missile?

Within the markerlight entry. You need support to fire those.

2. No Skyrays in Hunter Cadres? The only way to include them in a battleforged list is the Armored Interdiction Cadre?

Not exactly. A CAD would suffice to add them. But to be part of the Contingent, only via AIC.

3. Does Farsight and Shadowsun still count as Commanders for the Hunter Cadre?

Neither. Shadowun requires the Commmand Headquarters Formation, while Farsight can't be used with Contingent at all

4. Retaliation Cadre can be used to give broadsides relentless, or only for the DS turn?

The entire game.

5. Coordinated firepower - can I use units that are out of range?

No, because they cannot target the unit.

CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.

6. Is Farsight Enclaves invalidated with the new codex, or can it still be used? Not sure why I'd want to, but it is a question nonetheless.

Can still be used. You just need to bring at least 1 unit of 3 Crisis.

**edit**7. Stormsurge and EWO. If I use the Stabilizing Anchors, can I get the 'second' shot with a gun that I shot with the EWO?

No, because that's not the Shooting Phase.

**Alcibiades**

If it were the case that you get perform combined fire without actually firing, this would indeed be the worst rule since the Neolithic.

**Nilok**

I will note, people are considering a unit targeting as the same as a unit shooting. These are not identical. While not strictly defined, shooting does usually entail rolling to hit.

I would say in order to benefit from this, you will need to have at least one model in that unit contribute at least one shot in the Coordinated Firepower. For your Buffermander, simply have him attached to some Crisis Suits with missiles, or simply give him a Gun Drone.

**carldooley**

Nilok wrote:
I will note, people are considering a unit targeting as the same as a unit shooting. These are not identical. While not strictly defined, shooting does usually entail rolling to hit.

I would say in order to benefit from this, you will need to have at least one model in that unit contribute at least one shot in the Coordinated Firepower. For your Buffermander, simply have him attached to some Crisis Suits with missiles, or simply give him a Gun Drone.

I can live with that. with that said. . .

I can see the Hunter Contingent or at least the Coordinated Firepower to get errata'd to only affect the primary target, not all the secondary targets. until then, we have a benefit that allows us to massively abuse the shooting phase.

notredameguy10 wrote:
Using a pathfinder quad on the opposite side of the table running away(that can still snapfire) as your 3rd wheel for the extra BS in kinda shenanigans.

Let them. a unit running away can snapfire. they are a single unit. they ALL snapfire.

**DirtyDeeds**

Despite all the arguments for or against the issue, do you really want to try this on your friends?

**carldooley**

Depends on whom I'm playing. One prefers truly casual games, and I can do off the wall things like running full squads of crisis suits sans weapons, while another prefers to test tournament lists. Guess which one I'd use this against.

**TheAvengingKnee**

Wolfnid420 wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
carldooley wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
**edit**7. Stormsurge and EWO. If I use the Stabilizing Anchors, can I get the 'second' shot with a gun that I shot with the EWO?

No. Interceptor attacks are done at the end of the enemy Movement phase. Stabilizing Ancohrs specifically states "Shooting Phase".

I might try to justify targeting a second unit with the same gun, but I was asking about my turn. I know that I cannot normally fire a weapon that I fired with interceptor during my turn, but the Anchors allow me to fire everything twice. The first firing is sacrificed to the EWO, but the second?

You should still be able to fire each weapon one more time during your shooting phase yes.

I dont think you should get the bonus shot. When you fire with interceptor your gun is used, you dont gain the ability to shoot twice UNTIL your shooting phase. You would have to be able to shoot once, in order to be able to shoot twice. Now if its turn 3( and you anchored in turn 1) and something come in and you wanna shoot it with interceptor.....maybe then you could split up your double shooting.....but im not really sure

The rules for interceptor stop it from happening since you are not given permission to overule the underlined section:

40k BRB wrote:
Interceptor

At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.

**notredameguy10**

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Wolfnid420 wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
carldooley wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
**edit**7. Stormsurge and EWO. If I use the Stabilizing Anchors, can I get the 'second' shot with a gun that I shot with the EWO?

No. Interceptor attacks are done at the end of the enemy Movement phase. Stabilizing Ancohrs specifically states "Shooting Phase".

I might try to justify targeting a second unit with the same gun, but I was asking about my turn. I know that I cannot normally fire a weapon that I fired with interceptor during my turn, but the Anchors allow me to fire everything twice. The first firing is sacrificed to the EWO, but the second?

You should still be able to fire each weapon one more time during your shooting phase yes.

I dont think you should get the bonus shot. When you fire with interceptor your gun is used, you dont gain the ability to shoot twice UNTIL your shooting phase. You would have to be able to shoot once, in order to be able to shoot twice. Now if its turn 3( and you anchored in turn 1) and something come in and you wanna shoot it with interceptor.....maybe then you could split up your double shooting.....but im not really sure

The rules for interceptor stop it from happening since you are not given permission to overule the underlined section:

40k BRB wrote:
Interceptor

At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.

The rule for stabilizing anchors allows them to shoot a second time. So yes, it does overrule the BRB rule you posted.

**TheAvengingKnee**

No it doesn't the rule allows you to shoot a weapon twice in the shooting phase, it would need to specifically state that it allows a weapon to fire even if it fired interceptor to overrule.

Stabilizing anchor says you can fire twice in the shooting phase. with no mention of ignoring interceptor.

Interceptor says you can't shoot a weapon that was fired using interceptor.

It needs to have something like the Baronial Court has

Knightly Vassals: The Formation’s Baron (see below) and all Imperial Knights in the Formation within 12" of him have the Counter-attack special rule and can fire Overwatch, even though they are Super-heavy Walkers.

**notredameguy10**

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
No it doesn't the rule allows you to shoot a weapon twice in the shooting phase, it would need to specifically state that it allows a weapon to fire even if it fired interceptor to overrule.

Stabilizing anchor says you can fire twice in the shooting phase. with no mention of ignoring interceptor.

Interceptor says you can't shoot a weapon that was fired using interceptor.

It needs to have something like the Baronial Court has

Knightly Vassals: The Formation’s Baron (see below) and all Imperial Knights in the Formation within 12" of him have the Counter-attack special rule and can fire Overwatch, even though they are Super-heavy Walkers.

Yes you are correct. After looking at both rules closely, I agree. If it said "can fire again" and not "fire twice" than what I said would be correct. But since it says it can "fire twice" you are correct.