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It cost you 2 shots you could have applied elsewhere
Yeah and I guess that's the other problem. Due to their inherent fragility the Dark Eldar have to prioritize their shooting. And with my luck at shooting Dark Lances whatever it is usually takes a few turns. Also you have to hope that the things you shoot to survive are the things you have to shoot to win. I've had a couple of times where they were two different things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/18 03:15:30
What seems unfair is how you are constantly moving goalposts when people are giving very fair reasons that choice is poor in terms of in the codex and other armies. You ignore probability , you ignore others experiences, and you mock those that don't agree with you. This is doomsday theorist level of logic.
So um... moving the gola post is what ...I...was doing?
I pay 35 points more than the fighter... and get:
1. Both lances +1 STR 2. Fire at two targets in one round
3. Fire a STR 9 ap2 instead of STR 6 ap 5 on one of the missiles!
4. Get effectively one more missile than the fighter.
For... 35 points. Yeah man. What a RIP OFF that is! Lol
It isn't my logic thats lacking. Its that you do not give any credit to the units ACTUAL use. its ACTUALLY going to cost 200 points every time you take it. And you're paying 35 points for all that upgrading.
Who moved the goal post here? The guy who didnt explain how the bomber REALLY works. thats who. the person swho doesnt give a fair accounting of what 35 points actually GETS you. that is who moved the discussion. You tried to discuss the Bomber as it isnt used to a Fighter as it is used, but I am the one who somehow jimmied the goal post.
Hypocricy is a thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/18 05:20:36
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Moving the Goalposts isn't what you have been doing Janc. It's what you always do. Change the requirements for proof the second contrary evidence is provided.
You only get to "fire at two targets" if there is an enemy unit within thirty-six inches of your table edge. If not, your bombing run is useless. Other than that, you're paying 35 points for some marginally more effective Lance weapons, along with +1 Strength and Shred on your 40 point missile upgrades. One S9 AP2 Lance Large Blast will not reliably kill most vehicles. Against infantry, you want your missiles, but bombs take away from that. For all this extra cost, you have zero extra suvivability. You're paying Stormraven prices for something that is a lot less durable and efficient than a Stormraven.
The final nail in the Voidraven's coffin is that it eats a Heavy Support slot. I'd much rather take a Ravager for 140 points to give me a little more anti-tank capability.
Not much to talk about sadly, all of them are item jockies and don't add anything to the armies themselves beyond maybe Uriel with his oddball abilities. Succubi are AP2 suicide melee, archons are a taxi service with 2++, and haemonculus are decent at not immediately dying. Lilieth is not very good anymore even in challenges worth her points.
Well, I've certainly got some rants about our HQs that I can bring over from other threads.
It was suggested at one point, that an Archon could be made closer to 40pts. But, many argued that, unless his statline was drastically reduced, this would be really OP. Here's my response:
Spoiler:
Anyway, even with WS7 I7, I think it would still only be worth 40pts. Mainly because those stats are the least useful. There's rarely any difference between WS7 and WS6. Likewise, there's negligible difference between I7 and I6. Moreover, WS7 will usually only make a difference against stuff like chapter masters, except that it won't make a difference because those are orders of magnitude better than Archons. Also, compare WS and I to S and T (both of which the Archon lacks): exceeding your opponent by 2pts of strength makes a huge amount of difference (doubling the odds of wounding), whilst exceeding his WS by 2pts does nothing more than exceeding it by 1pt. Initiative is even worse - you can beat his initiative by 1pt or by 5pts - it makes no difference whatsoever.
Furthermore, WS7, BS7 and I7 mean bugger all if the model can't use them. And, so far we have a model with a BS7 splinter pistol (be afraid!) and a S3 CCW (be very afraid!). Even if you start upgrading him, you're not exactly getting amazing value. Let's say he's 40pts and you take a blaster, well you're paying 55pts for a single BS7 blaster shot. For the same points, you can get 5 kabalites with a BS4 blaster and 4 BS4 splinter rifles. Is the Archon really a better deal? Even if you think the BS7 blaster is worth sacrificing 4 splinter rifles for, you're still taking a big hit in survivability. The Archon only has 3 wounds (compared to their 5), and can lose all 3 to a single S6 shot.
Sorry, but 40pts actually seems entirely reasonable for his current statline. He starts with no weapons and basically no save. His best stats are the least relevant, whilst he lacks the most important ones (strength and toughness). He starts with no melee weapons and a pathetic pistol. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, he does absolutely nothing to support his squad or the army in general. You're paying 40pts for a beatstick with no offence or defence to speak of. Yes, you can upgrade him, but as above even with simple blaster he's far from being any kind of good deal. And, as soon as you try to tool him up for melee, he'll quickly double or even triple in cost (at least with our current wargear prices).
Regarding Farseers and Haemonculi:
Spoiler:
I was equally annoyed about the Fleshbane/Armourbane on Witchblades - especially after our 2+ Poison Venom Blades doubled in cost, and then got removed from 99% of our units anyway (at least scourges can still buy them ).
Anyway, what I find irritating is that Haemonculus seem to be intended as support units with some melee ability (hence having 3 attacks base, rather than the 1-2 attacks seen on most psykers). But, any bonus they get from having more attacks is lost when they need 4s to wound.
As an example, a Haemonculus with 4+ poison from Flesh Gauntlet (or Sindriq's Sump) vs marines. On the charge he has 5 attacks that hit on 3s and wound on 4s. So 2/3 x 1/2 x 5 = 5/3 wounds before saves.
Now, a Farseer with Wychblade has 3 attacks on the charge, which wound on 2s. So 2/3 x 5/6 x 3 = 5/3.
So, on the charge, the two are literally identical. In addition, the Farseer can theoretically penetrate AV14, whilst the Haemonculus can't even scratch AV10. Now, the Farseer does cost 20pts more, but that includes 75pts of psychic levels. And, whilst the Haemonculus' support bonus is meagre and only applies to his own squad, the Farseer can buff multiple friendly units and/or debuff enemy units - all at great range.
So, what exactly is it we're paying for? Even if you tailor a bit more (e.g. by taking an Agoniser against Marines), then the Haemonculus' combat ability still isn't anything to write home about (and no matter which weapon you take, the Farseer is still better against vehicles). So, we're basically sacrificing unrivalled psychic abilities for negligible gain.
Regarding Succubi:
Spoiler:
By the standards of our book? They're... alright. I mean, they die if anyone so much as coughs in their general direction, and they're basically a Klaivex for 3 times the cost, but they also get the only AP2 melee weapon in our entire HQ section.
However, if the Succubus was an HQ choice in any other book, the players would simply rip out her page and throw it into the nearest bin. If anyone mentioned her in polite conversation, you'd get an embarrassed silence and a general air that some things are best ignored.
Regarding our HQs' wargear options:
Spoiler:
The problem is, other races get weapons like power fists, the Burning Blade, evicerators and whatever that SW relic is called, which are basically great against virtually everything. Some of the might strike last, but when you're talking about 4-wound, T5, 2+/3+ characters it doesn't really matter.
In contrast, our weapons don't excel against anything. Agonisers are mediocre against more things, and abysmal against anything with a 2+ save. Huskblades are abysmal against anything with a 2+ save, against anything with 1 wound, and against anything with high toughness. Our power swords are good against absolutely nothing, and the Djin Blade only works when its user pokes it up his own nose. And, of course, none of these can even scratch AV10.
Moreover, the only anti-vehicle melee defence our characters can take is haywire grenades. Contrast this with the melta-bombs SM characters can take (not that they need them). Meltas are designed to cripple or destroy a vehicle with a single hit, whilst haywire needs multiple hits to even have a hope of destroying it. Or, to put it another way, they're completely worthless on ICs as any sort of defence against vehicles.
I mentioned this earlier, but I think it needs reiterating. There seems to be this idea with DE that, because they're fragile, they should also be really feeble in combat - terrible strength, terrible or nonexistant AP, sparse grenades on an army that relies on high initiative, no or useless special rules, and worthless poison values (4+ poison... yeah, that's really worth getting into melee for ). So, rather than being glass cannons, our melee units just end up being glass pea-shooters.
I'm also sick of hearing "but you get to strike first". So what? That only matters if we can actually cause damage. So my wyches get to strike first against your dreadnought, wow, I bet the pilot is really crapping his pants now. Or perhaps my Archon gets to strike first against your Chapter Master - boy must he be frightened of that 1/3 of a wound he might suffer.
It's like getting to shoot first in a duel, except that you're armed with a water pistol. And your opponent is in a tank.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
I think the best example of how terrible the DEHQ selection is, is the fact that people prefer to take a command unit to fill the HQ requirement instead of choosing an actual HQ.
oz of the north wrote: I think the best example of how terrible the DEHQ selection is, is the fact that people prefer to take a command unit to fill the HQ requirement instead of choosing an actual HQ.
I have done more damage with a Llhamian with their venom blade then I ever have with an archon or succubus. Despite how weak the regular HQs are people still hint them for Slay the Warlord or for objective cards. If someone sees a court member they tend to be forgotten...until sargeants start falling to the venom girls. Switch out her for Medusae against marines, and you are comparitively fine.
On a related note: WHY doesn't the Llhamian confer a bonus to poison to her archon like the previous edition? I really liked that ability, giving my archon an agonizer and crucible with a squad of llhamians in a raider was always fun
oz of the north wrote: I think the best example of how terrible the DEHQ selection is, is the fact that people prefer to take a command unit to fill the HQ requirement instead of choosing an actual HQ.
I have done more damage with a Llhamian with their venom blade then I ever have with an archon or succubus. Despite how weak the regular HQs are people still hint them for Slay the Warlord or for objective cards. If someone sees a court member they tend to be forgotten...until sargeants start falling to the venom girls. Switch out her for Medusae against marines, and you are comparitively fine.
I've seen someone use a Lhamaean as their mandatory HQ, and then make a Reaver Champion their warlord. It meant their warlord was T4 with a 3+ jink save, JSJ and (if in danger) could zip 48" away.
On a related note: WHY doesn't the Llhamian confer a bonus to poison to her archon like the previous edition? I really liked that ability, giving my archon an agonizer and crucible with a squad of llhamians in a raider was always fun
Bear in mind that, in 5th, that ability didn't actually work with the Agoniser - since it wasn't actually a poison weapon. It just always wounded on 4+.
In the new book, they made it a Poison Weapon... and then removed the Lhamaean's ability to buff poison weapons.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
The HQ section is a mess, most are assault based units in an edition were assault is weak. I really wish that dark eldar got some kind of bonus save vs overwatch, cause that's what kills a lot of unit's potential
On a different point entirely, I was actually thinking recently - what exactly makes us a fast army?
I used to think it was our thing, but on reflection I'm genuinely struggling to even see our speed.
Are we fast because our vehicles have 'Fast'? Blood Angel vehicles also have that, but are allowed armour to go with them. Same goes for Eldar vehicles, and even Orks ones.
Are we fast because we have bikes, beasts and Jump Infantry? If so, how exactly do those make us any faster than the myriad of other armies with those things? Of those 3, only our bikes are actually any faster than any other race's bike (and Eldar's bikes are equally fast). So, are we fast because we have one biker unit that is slightly faster than the bike units of most other races?
Are we fast because all our units can move 12"? Nope. Most of our stuff - including HQs, both our troops, both our MCs and our entire Elites slot is stuck moving 6". In fact several of our units don't even have Fleet.
So, what exactly is it that supposedly makes us fast? I get that we have some fast units, but so does virtually every other army in the game.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
I view that as power creep or in this case speed creep. I remember in 5th edition how quick dark eldar moved compared to most armies and how hard they could hit. These days almost everyone can do that so that niche they filled is flooded by several armies.
Yes, it is. I don't need your analysis to tell me that BA, DE, CSM, and IG are all bad armies. However, the justifications are pretty amusing. Still waiting for your BA thread. Or maybe they are too crappy for even you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/18 17:44:49
From my perspective, Dark Eldar HQ units (except Courts) are meant to be in melee. They have the statlines to be CC beasts with the right wargear. Problem is, their wargear selection is very limited. Agonizers are all you get for an Archon that wants to be effective, and the Succubus's Archite Glaive lacks hitting power. Hamonculi could be decent in melee, but again have limited wargear, being unable to take Venom Blades or EC Whips. The other problem is that the HQ units are squishy; they need to join a unit to be survivable. Incubi can work as a melee bodyguard unit, but are very expensive ans suffer form the problems of getting into melee.
In short, the main reason you take the HQ units is because you have to. They can be decent in CC with the right wargear, but it isn't a competitive choice.
Yes, it is. I don't need your analysis to tell me that BA, DE, CSM, and IG are all bad armies. However, the justifications are pretty amusing. Still waiting for your BA thread. Or maybe they are too crappy for even you.
Yeah. Perhaps they can attach a button to the updates that will alleviate you of any need to be an actual general. You know. since its the Codex and all?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheNewBlood wrote: From my perspective, Dark Eldar HQ units (except Courts) are meant to be in melee. They have the statlines to be CC beasts with the right wargear. Problem is, their wargear selection is very limited. Agonizers are all you get for an Archon that wants to be effective, and the Succubus's Archite Glaive lacks hitting power. Hamonculi could be decent in melee, but again have limited wargear, being unable to take Venom Blades or EC Whips. The other problem is that the HQ units are squishy; they need to join a unit to be survivable. Incubi can work as a melee bodyguard unit, but are very expensive ans suffer form the problems of getting into melee.
In short, the main reason you take the HQ units is because you have to. They can be decent in CC with the right wargear, but it isn't a competitive choice.
Well I mean not every army is going to have every option. Super characters arent a Dark Eldar thing. They are kina like Autarchs: they can be good but they just ARE elves. big brutish humans like Lysander come and laugh at their HQ's.
So I have learned to use the Dark eldar characters more as force multipliers kind of like I do with Tau Empire. That's what they are good at, basically.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/18 18:35:04
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Oh look, telling Martel to L2P. Once again showing your ignorance to the game outside your locals where people make stupid mistakes and apparently Genestealer Cult is scary.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Oh look, telling Martel to L2P. Once again showing your ignorance to the game outside your locals where people make stupid mistakes and apparently Genestealer Cult is scary.
But, his anecdotes! Jancoran is obviously the best general everywhere. I've got $50,000 on him winning the LVO AND the BAO with his masterful Night Lords list.
What do deldar HQs to force multply? Besides Webway portal, which is a well known fact and have been pushed into eldar lists as taxi services for a while?
And there is a distinct difference between all of our HQs and the Eldar ones: eldar HQs are mostly really good. Farseers can get broken strong really quick so lets jump to aurtach. what can they do in this edition? They have a fairly long list of item choices, can grab from a relic list with mostly great choices, and have warlors traits that can impact the game fairly well. Compare that to the archon or succubus. Which one could win in a fight by themselves? In a unit each? Which one multiplies forces better? To me it seems Eldar's are quite better, for similar or less cost.
Interestingly enough jancoran, the eldar codex has buttons that tell me which models to pick up off the board.
Still waiting for how the ba are just fine. I'm sure im just missing something, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
autumnlotus wrote: What do deldar HQs to force multply? Besides Webway portal, which is a well known fact and have been pushed into eldar lists as taxi services for a while?
And there is a distinct difference between all of our HQs and the Eldar ones: eldar HQs are mostly really good. Farseers can get broken strong really quick so lets jump to aurtach. what can they do in this edition? They have a fairly long list of item choices, can grab from a relic list with mostly great choices, and have warlors traits that can impact the game fairly well. Compare that to the archon or succubus. Which one could win in a fight by themselves? In a unit each? Which one multiplies forces better? To me it seems Eldar's are quite better, for similar or less cost.
Duh. Eldar.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/18 18:53:20
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Oh look, telling Martel to L2P. Once again showing your ignorance to the game outside your locals where people make stupid mistakes and apparently Genestealer Cult is scary.
But, his anecdotes! Jancoran is obviously the best general everywhere. I've got $50,000 on him winning the LVO AND the BAO with his masterful Night Lords list.
They got an acronym for that in the Fire Emblem community in the form of PEMS: personal experience means nothing. Nobody cares how well your Meg from Radiant Dawn leveled up in that one play through; averages dictate she is crap and nobody drafts her for a reason.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Oh look, telling Martel to L2P. Once again showing your ignorance to the game outside your locals where people make stupid mistakes and apparently Genestealer Cult is scary.
But, his anecdotes! Jancoran is obviously the best general everywhere. I've got $50,000 on him winning the LVO AND the BAO with his masterful Night Lords list.
Too bad you didn't put that same money on Lictorshame. Oh but you never would have.
Oh well.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Oh look, telling Martel to L2P. Once again showing your ignorance to the game outside your locals where people make stupid mistakes and apparently Genestealer Cult is scary.
But, his anecdotes! Jancoran is obviously the best general everywhere. I've got $50,000 on him winning the LVO AND the BAO with his masterful Night Lords list.
Too bad you didn't put that same money on Lictorshame. Oh but you never would have.
Oh well.
Actually, I might have. That was a pretty good use of formations and OP units. I'm still waiting to see how you're Night Lord lists does in the LVO
3,000 
~3000 (Fully Painted)
Coming Soon!
).
~1.5k
