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Apologies if this a repeat question.
If a baneblade has 2 pairs of sponsons, does the rear sponsor get line of site through the front sponsored?

Why would they get line of sight through the front sponsons? You use true line of sight, so if the front sponsons block the rear sponsons then there is no line of sight.

A squadron of vehicles can draw Los through squadron member vehicles, can they not? A pintle mounted weapon on a vehicle can also draw Los through the vehicle itself, as well.

Slight difference in that the pintle weapon draws LoS over the rest of the vehicle rather than through it.

Check out the diagram on page 74 of the rulebook (Vehicle Weapons & Line of Sight) shows that sponsons are blocked by the hull of the vehicle, which should also apply to other sponsons.

Yes, vehicle squadrons are weird with how they draw LoS.

The sponsons on other vehicles appear to be limited by the range of movement of the mount rather than Los being blocked by the hull.

Additionally, from paragraph 1 pg. 74 of "The Rules", "...trace line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by INTERVENING terrain of models." I suggest that this implies that a model can fire through itself.

Looking again at the pintle mounted weapon, if a model was against the rear of a vehicle it could still be targeted according to the diagram on the forementioned reference that you have cited. For example a Russ with a pintle heavy stubbed could fire at a model in contact with the hull, otherwise would they not have put a ring around the vehicle where a model could not be targetted? Using Arc of Site 3 from pg 74 the storm bolted can fire at a model against the hull on the oposite side of the Rhino as determined by the orange shading, thus firing through its own hull.

Predator heavy bolter sponsons can turn further in than the example on page 74 shows. The arc shown is because of an intervening model (the Predator). We have a rule allowing vehicles to shoot through other members of their own squadron. We do not have a rule allowing them to shoot through themselves.

 Ghaz wrote:
Predator heavy bolter sponsons can turn further in than the example on page 74 shows. The arc shown is because of an intervening model (the Predator). We have a rule allowing vehicles to shoot through other members of their own squadron. We do not have a rule allowing them to shoot through themselves.

So you are saying the vehicle is not a member of its own squadron (if it is a member of a squadron of other vehicles)?

Is it another member, though. I dont have the rule in front of me to check, but if it requires "other", then despite being a member of the squadron,it does not meet this requirement

Would you allow a land raider to fire its heavy bolter at a unit behind it?

In all honesty you are best either mounting the second set of sponsons so that they are superfiring or mounting them so that they are covering the rear arc instead.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Would you allow a land raider to fire its heavy bolter at a unit behind it?

I just checked my land raider and the heavy bolter can swing just over 180 degrees, so yes.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Is it another member, though. I dont have the rule in front of me to check, but if it requires "other", then despite being a member of the squadron,it does not meet this requirement

It does not mention another member. just members of their own unit/squadron.


There are two rules here (Really one rule, the Squadron rule is a copycat of the first)

1) "There is one important exception to the rules for line of sight. Firing models can always draw line of sight through members of their own unit just as if they were not there." (General Principles chapter, Own Unit section)

2) "All of the weapons fired by a squadron of vehicles in each phase must target a single enemy unit. Like other units, vehicles in squadrons can see and shoot through members of their own squadron, just as if they were not there." (Vehicles Chapter, Squadrons in the Shooting Phase section).

Therefore Unless a vehicle is not a part of its own unit or not a part of its own squadron you can fire through your own vehicle as per the strict RAW.

So a Vehicle can only shoot through itself when its a part of a squadron, not when its purchased as a single vehicle?

Which a baneblade never is, so...

 Ghaz wrote:
So a Vehicle can only shoot through itself when its a part of a squadron, not when its purchased as a single vehicle?

No.

Vehicles in squadrons "can see and shoot through members of their own squadron, just as if they were not there." (Vehicles Chapter, Squadrons in the Shooting Phase section).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Which a baneblade never is, so...

Which does not matter because:

If it is not in a squadron this covers it: "Firing models can always draw line of sight through members of their own unit just as if they were not there." (General Principles chapter, Own Unit section)

Is a single vehicle a member of its own unit?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
So a Vehicle can only shoot through itself when its a part of a squadron, not when its purchased as a single vehicle?

No.

Vehicles in squadrons "can see and shoot through members of their own squadron, just as if they were not there." (Vehicles Chapter, Squadrons in the Shooting Phase section).

Is a single vehicle a squadron? If not, why are you using the Squadron rules?

"The Rules" pg 9 paragraph 10, second sentence "A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but single, powerful model, such as a lone character, A TANK, a war engine or rampaging monster is also considered to be a unit in it's own right."

Seems pretty clear to me that a tank, is a unit, units can fire through their own members, so, providing the arc of fire, limited by the physical limitation of the model it's self, would be able to draw line of sight though itself.

And drawing again on the diagram from "The Rules" pg 74 'Arc of Sight 3' the pintle mounted weapon, would be able to draw LoS to a model directly behind the Rhino even if it was shorter than the Rhino, thus fireing through it's own hull.

It helps if you look at the appropriate rules. For example, you would look at the 'Vehicle Squadrons' rules if you're looking for rules about squadrons:

Most vehicles fight as individual units and are represented by a single model. However some vehicles, such as Ork Warbuggies and Eldar Vypers, operate together in what are known as squadrons.

So no, a single vehicle most definitely does not qualify as a squadron and it is squadrons that allow vehicles to ignore each other for line of sight.

Additionally, Vehicles have their own rules for Line of Sight:

... trace line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by intervening terrain or models.

The Vehicle itself would qualify as an 'intervening model'.

 Ghaz wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
So a Vehicle can only shoot through itself when its a part of a squadron, not when its purchased as a single vehicle?

No.

Vehicles in squadrons "can see and shoot through members of their own squadron, just as if they were not there." (Vehicles Chapter, Squadrons in the Shooting Phase section).

Is a single vehicle a squadron? If not, why are you using the Squadron rules?

I am not using the squadron rules...

I am using the rules for Line of Sight...

 Ghaz wrote:
It helps if you look at the appropriate rules. For example, you would look at the 'Vehicle Squadrons' rules if you're looking for rules about squadrons:

Most vehicles fight as individual units and are represented by a single model. However some vehicles, such as Ork Warbuggies and Eldar Vypers, operate together in what are known as squadrons.

So no, a single vehicle most definitely does not qualify as a squadron and it is squadrons that allow vehicles to ignore each other for line of sight.

Additionally, Vehicles have their own rules for Line of Sight:

... trace line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by intervening terrain or models.

The Vehicle itself would qualify as an 'intervening model'.

It would except: "There is one important exception to the rules for line of sight. Firing models can always draw line of sight through members of their own unit just as if they were not there." (General Principles chapter, Own Unit section)

Since the vehicle is a member of its own unit the vehicle can "always draw line of sight through members of their own unit just as if they were not there."

So it can Always draw line of sight through itself.

Have they removed the weapons dont count as visible when drawing los?

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Have they removed the weapons dont count as visible when drawing los?

That is an interesting point!
The actual rule for shooting at a vehicle stipulate hull or turret, ignoring barrels and decorative items, etc. I could see a sponsons being classified as turret or even hull. However you can not have sponsons without a weapons, so they are add-ons, and could be interpreted as similar to that ofHunter-killer missiles or pintle-mounted weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, "The Rules" page 38, defines intervening models as "...from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit or target unit)..."

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Have they removed the weapons dont count as visible when drawing los?

That was not a blanket rule.

It is true that you can not draw LoS to a models weapon, if a weapon of a different models obscures the target you do not ignore that weapon.

Same happens with a flying Hive Tyrant. Its wings are ignored when drawing LoS! to the Hive Tyrant, but the wings an obscure a unit behind the HT.

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
A squadron of vehicles can draw Los through squadron member vehicles, can they not? A pintle mounted weapon on a vehicle can also draw Los through the vehicle itself, as well.

You guys are making this way harder than it has to be. The squadron members rule specifically states that its there to simulate squadron members dodging around/moving/etc their own friendly squadron fire. That can't be done on a fixed weapon on the same vehicle. If you're going to put a sponson behind a sponson, I wouldn't expect a lot of people to let you shoot through the gun in front of it, as a sponson cannot physically move out of the way to avoid fire.

oh nvm, now we're talking about LoS rules. Forgive my intrusion.

steelreign wrote:

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
A squadron of vehicles can draw Los through squadron member vehicles, can they not? A pintle mounted weapon on a vehicle can also draw Los through the vehicle itself, as well.

You guys are making this way harder than it has to be. The squadron members rule specifically states that its there to simulate squadron members dodging around/moving/etc their own friendly squadron fire. That can't be done on a fixed weapon on the same vehicle. If you're going to put a sponson behind a sponson, I wouldn't expect a lot of people to let you shoot through the gun in front of it, as a sponson cannot physically move out of the way to avoid fire.

Fluff is not rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

steelreign wrote:

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
A squadron of vehicles can draw Los through squadron member vehicles, can they not? A pintle mounted weapon on a vehicle can also draw Los through the vehicle itself, as well.

You guys are making this way harder than it has to be. The squadron members rule specifically states that its there to simulate squadron members dodging around/moving/etc their own friendly squadron fire. That can't be done on a fixed weapon on the same vehicle. If you're going to put a sponson behind a sponson, I wouldn't expect a lot of people to let you shoot through the gun in front of it, as a sponson cannot physically move out of the way to avoid fire.

Fluff is not rules.

regardless, a vehicle is not a squadron. Its a single unit. Now if you're talking about LoS rules, then you might have an argument. But definitely not with the squadron rules

steelreign wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

steelreign wrote:

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
A squadron of vehicles can draw Los through squadron member vehicles, can they not? A pintle mounted weapon on a vehicle can also draw Los through the vehicle itself, as well.

You guys are making this way harder than it has to be. The squadron members rule specifically states that its there to simulate squadron members dodging around/moving/etc their own friendly squadron fire. That can't be done on a fixed weapon on the same vehicle. If you're going to put a sponson behind a sponson, I wouldn't expect a lot of people to let you shoot through the gun in front of it, as a sponson cannot physically move out of the way to avoid fire.

Fluff is not rules.

regardless, a vehicle is not a squadron. Its a single unit. Now if you're talking about LoS rules, then you might have an argument. But definitely not with the squadron rules

I addressed the single vehicle and squadrons above. they both have the same rules.

Bottom line is that a single vehicle can draw LoS though its own Hull as per the RAW.

Model the rear sponsons higher than the front ones. Problem solved.

Until you try to shoot something lower than the front sponson...

And wouldn't that count as modeling for advantage at that point?

Sure, but GW has basically said this is legal so.... who cares?

 Spellbound wrote:
Sure, but GW has basically said this is legal so.... who cares?

How so?