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the crimson slaughter are feared for their raids yet no drop pods cause why cant have little Timmy lose can we?

 Scorpionov wrote:
the crimson slaughter are feared for their raids yet no drop pods cause why cant have little Timmy lose can we?

I propose the following scenario: Lil' Timmy plays CSM.

 Selym wrote:

@Kalunwen: I meant they don't align themselves with the gods, and only use the warp for travel. Also, very few psykers have the kind of power required to just teleport a whole army into the planet. Ahriman could do it, but most cannot.

Do you really think entire armies get deployed all at once with Drop Pods? It's a special kind of circumstance that such happens. Usually you have mixed deployment via Thunderhawks and Drop Pods, with Teleportation thrown into the mix as well.

Chaos can do all of those--with the added bit of Warp passage.

And you'd still want pods for boarding actions, and whenever the warp is inaccessible - like against nids or certain Necron tech.

The pods used for boarding actions are NOT drop pods. They're called "Boarding Torpedoes" on the Loyalist side and they're not unlike a torpedo with Marines stuffed inside.


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 Scorpionov wrote:
the crimson slaughter are feared for their raids yet no drop pods cause why cant have little Timmy lose can we?

Because raiding does not necessitate Drop Pods.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:

@Kalunwen: I meant they don't align themselves with the gods, and only use the warp for travel. Also, very few psykers have the kind of power required to just teleport a whole army into the planet. Ahriman could do it, but most cannot.

Do you really think entire armies get deployed all at once with Drop Pods? It's a special kind of circumstance that such happens. Usually you have mixed deployment via Thunderhawks and Drop Pods, with Teleportation thrown into the mix as well.

It still does not mean that CSM don't have and never want drop pods. There is literally no reason why they don't have them, other than GW being an ass.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
There is no legitimate reason why chaos marines don't have drop pods, the dark mechanicum has proven quite good at maintaining old equipment and making new stuff as well. They are probably more advanced than the ad mech themselves.

When you can deploy via massed Warp incursions, who needs Drop Pods?

Well first. You have to be in an area with weakened access to the warp, which means you have to have established a cult on the ground already, and have them being the rituals to bleed the warp into the material universe.

So if you've already established a cult that powerful, you probably don't need to attack it.

Also, Iron Warriors say hi.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
There is no legitimate reason why chaos marines don't have drop pods, the dark mechanicum has proven quite good at maintaining old equipment and making new stuff as well. They are probably more advanced than the ad mech themselves.

When you can deploy via massed Warp incursions, who needs Drop Pods?

Well first. You have to be in an area with weakened access to the warp, which means you have to have established a cult on the ground already, and have them being the rituals to bleed the warp into the material universe.

Not true. It's long been established that there are areas where the walls between reality and the Warp are weak to begin with.

So if you've already established a cult that powerful, you probably don't need to attack it.

Um, or you established a cult that powerful so that you could have support when you do attack it?

Also, Iron Warriors say hi.

You mean the Legion responsible for blending Daemons with Machines?

Them not having Sorcerers in the traditional manner does not mean they do not have any kind of Warp ties.

Selym wrote:It still does not mean that CSM don't have and never want drop pods. There is literally no reason why they don't have them, other than GW being an ass.

Read what I'm actually writing and not what you think I'm writing.

I have said nothing about them not having or never wanting them. I'm saying that I can understand why GW is not doing so and the fluff justifications that can be utilized to explain that rationale.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
There is no legitimate reason why chaos marines don't have drop pods, the dark mechanicum has proven quite good at maintaining old equipment and making new stuff as well. They are probably more advanced than the ad mech themselves.

When you can deploy via massed Warp incursions, who needs Drop Pods?

Well first. You have to be in an area with weakened access to the warp, which means you have to have established a cult on the ground already, and have them being the rituals to bleed the warp into the material universe.

Not true. It's long been established that there are areas where the walls between reality and the Warp are weak to begin with.

So if you've already established a cult that powerful, you probably don't need to attack it.

Um, or you established a cult that powerful so that you could have support when you do attack it?

Also, Iron Warriors say hi.

You mean the Legion responsible for blending Daemons with Machines?

Them not having Sorcerers in the traditional manner does not mean they do not have any kind of Warp ties.

Selym wrote:It still does not mean that CSM don't have and never want drop pods. There is literally no reason why they don't have them, other than GW being an ass.

Read what I'm actually writing and not what you think I'm writing.

I have said nothing about them not having or never wanting them. I'm saying that I can understand why GW is not doing so and the fluff justifications that can be utilized to explain that rationale.

Iron warriors do have sorcerers, and they also use drop pods. Places where the wall is weak are probably already under the influence of chaos. And are you saying that Chaos Marines don't fancy raiding other places further away from the eye and the maelstrom? They probably want to to get pure humans to make into marines, which they do.

And the iron warriors use drop pods, they use them in storm of iron.

Im an avid chaos lover but i think the whole idea of them still having drop pods is a bit out i think chaos should have chapter tactics for warbands some can have pods and others allow deepstrike with maybe 1 D6 for the enhanced warp strikes

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Warzoner wrote:
I don't know why, but many people tell me (and I sometime read it on the lexicanum and w40k wiki) that in the fluff, CSM still have drop pods. If so, why is it that game-wise the only one they have access to is the Dreadclaw ? Anyone ever discussed this ?

CSM Fluff has drop pods, FW makes CSM drop pods. The reason they're not in the CSM codex is because "they forgot how to make/use them".

Herpaderp.

The real reason is that CSM are not allowed to be even on par with C:SM.

I'd posit that the "real reason" is none of what you said.
Standard Drop Pods like we see in C: SM? They get recovered from the battlefield if there was a victory and if the Drop Pod is deemed salvageable. Thunderhawk Transporters are actually used for this purpose from what has been said before.

So, if the CSM forces had Drop Pods and they won a battle and they had the time to recover the expended Drop Pods? Then yeah, they should be able to have them.
But think about that specific set of circumstances. Even assuming that the Chaos Marines won every single battle they ever fought in and they were able to recover the pods from the field?

You'd still run out of pods by now if you don't have a manufacturing base in place for them. I haven't read any of the FW Horus Heresy stuff so I don't know whether they make a specific mention of the "current" Drop Pod having been recently introduced or whatever during the Heresy, but they did use to be specific in that the Dreadclaw was a common sight among the Loyalists and Traitors before being jettisoned by Loyalists after the Machine Spirits went a bit hinky.

Considering that fact? It's not unbelievable that perhaps the Dark Mechanicus can't build the current variant of Drop Pod, but they do have the STC data for the Dreadclaw and Kharibdys and thus build those.

Why do people always think that Chaos has no logistics? The Eye of Terror and other worlds claimed by Chaos are full of Dark Mechanicus Forge Worlds that produce equipment for Chaos Astartes. The reason why Chaos Space Marines don't get any nice toys is because they really are Space Marines +1. They have access to everything the loyalists have, only they get even more as Chaos Space Marines can call upon daemonic allies, Legion Veterans, Cult Troops, etc. Thus they'll never get a Codex that does them justice, because with no plot bs a competent Chaos Space Marine Warband should demolish an equally competent Loyalist Astartes company ten out of ten times.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Why do people always think that Chaos has no logistics? The Eye of Terror and other worlds claimed by Chaos are full of Dark Mechanicus Forge Worlds that produce equipment for Chaos Astartes. The reason why Chaos Space Marines don't get any nice toys is because they really are Space Marines +1. They have access to everything the loyalists have, only they get even more as Chaos Space Marines can call upon daemonic allies, Legion Veterans, Cult Troops, etc. Thus they'll never get a Codex that does them justice, because with no plot bs a competent Chaos Space Marine Warband should demolish an equally competent Loyalist Astartes company ten out of ten times.

While generally I agree with you to a Chaos Space Marine force could be hampered by the Ruinous Powers with their capriciousness. Giving them too many "gifts" turning them into spawn and such like. Or random Warp mutations could leave them less effective.

Why can't my 1850 pt Chaos Space Marine army use drop pods but your 1850 pt Space Marine army can?

Because your 1850 pt Chaos Space Marine army already used them prior to the battle when they were beating on a 250 pt Astra Militarum army.

Drop pods are a tool used by an attacking army. CSM generally don't attack hard targets where they have a good chance of losing. CSM are an NPC army whose purpose in the game is to serve as an enemy for the SM PCs to overcome. Because of this an 1850 pt SM army will be superior to an 1850 pt CSM army by design. Why would 1850 pts of CSM perform a drop pod assault against a superior foe when they know they're going to lose? You don't haul yourself all the way from the Eye of Terror to do a drop pod assault against a bunch of space marines and die. They'd just choose not to attack in the first place. The type of battles typically depicted in the game (equal pts vs equal pts) are not the type of battles in which CSM would deploy via drop pods.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Why can't my 1850 pt Chaos Space Marine army use drop pods but your 1850 pt Space Marine army can?

Because your 1850 pt Chaos Space Marine army already used them prior to the battle when they were beating on a 250 pt Astra Militarum army.

Drop pods are a tool used by an attacking army. CSM generally don't attack hard targets where they have a good chance of losing. CSM are an NPC army whose purpose in the game is to serve as an enemy for the SM PCs to overcome. Because of this an 1850 pt SM army will be superior to an 1850 pt CSM army by design. Why would 1850 pts of CSM perform a drop pod assault against a superior foe when they know they're going to lose? You don't haul yourself all the way from the Eye of Terror to do a drop pod assault against a bunch of space marines and die. They'd just choose not to attack in the first place. The type of battles typically depicted in the game (equal pts vs equal pts) are not the type of battles in which CSM would deploy via drop pods.

Except that Iron Warriors and Black Legion marines do it.

 Selym wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Why can't my 1850 pt Chaos Space Marine army use drop pods but your 1850 pt Space Marine army can?

Because your 1850 pt Chaos Space Marine army already used them prior to the battle when they were beating on a 250 pt Astra Militarum army.

Drop pods are a tool used by an attacking army. CSM generally don't attack hard targets where they have a good chance of losing. CSM are an NPC army whose purpose in the game is to serve as an enemy for the SM PCs to overcome. Because of this an 1850 pt SM army will be superior to an 1850 pt CSM army by design. Why would 1850 pts of CSM perform a drop pod assault against a superior foe when they know they're going to lose? You don't haul yourself all the way from the Eye of Terror to do a drop pod assault against a bunch of space marines and die. They'd just choose not to attack in the first place. The type of battles typically depicted in the game (equal pts vs equal pts) are not the type of battles in which CSM would deploy via drop pods.

Except that Iron Warriors and Black Legion marines do it.

So do Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, etc.

The problem is that they don't do it exclusively nor in such large numbers that it becomes a "signature feature" of the army.

And Ultramarines often use methul bawkses and Thunderhawks. They still get pods.

 Selym wrote:
And Ultramarines often use methul bawkses and Thunderhawks. They still get pods.

Yup.

And if you want Drop Pods, play Ultramarines. You don't get them for CSM. Why? Who knows.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And Ultramarines often use methul bawkses and Thunderhawks. They still get pods.

Yup.

And if you want Drop Pods, play Ultramarines. You don't get them for CSM. Why? Who knows.

Because GW thinks that the Chaos counterpart of anything should be.that thing -1. If you cannot come up with a good reason why an army should not have access to something they use in fluff, they should have it.

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And Ultramarines often use methul bawkses and Thunderhawks. They still get pods.

Yup.

And if you want Drop Pods, play Ultramarines. You don't get them for CSM. Why? Who knows.

Because GW thinks that the Chaos counterpart of anything should be.that thing -1. If you cannot come up with a good reason why an army should not have access to something they use in fluff, they should have it.

If that were true, Iron Warriors would still have Basilisks and Guardsmen.

They don't. Some stuff is going to be relegated to the fluff, because while it's made to seem common there? It might not actually be.

 Selym wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Why can't my 1850 pt Chaos Space Marine army use drop pods but your 1850 pt Space Marine army can?

Because your 1850 pt Chaos Space Marine army already used them prior to the battle when they were beating on a 250 pt Astra Militarum army.

Drop pods are a tool used by an attacking army. CSM generally don't attack hard targets where they have a good chance of losing. CSM are an NPC army whose purpose in the game is to serve as an enemy for the SM PCs to overcome. Because of this an 1850 pt SM army will be superior to an 1850 pt CSM army by design. Why would 1850 pts of CSM perform a drop pod assault against a superior foe when they know they're going to lose? You don't haul yourself all the way from the Eye of Terror to do a drop pod assault against a bunch of space marines and die. They'd just choose not to attack in the first place. The type of battles typically depicted in the game (equal pts vs equal pts) are not the type of battles in which CSM would deploy via drop pods.

Except that Iron Warriors and Black Legion marines do it.

Do what? Employ drop pods? Or employ drop pods against a superior force when doing so will almost certainly result in defeat?

The CSM codex is designed to portray CSM armies that lose. The battle they won happened "off camera" prior to the one you're fighting now. That's when the drop pods would have been used. If you want to fight that prior battle then you'll have to houserule a special scenario. 1850 pts of CSM with drop pods taken from C:SM vs 250 pts of IG sounds about right.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Why can't my 1850 pt Chaos Space Marine army use drop pods but your 1850 pt Space Marine army can?

Because your 1850 pt Chaos Space Marine army already used them prior to the battle when they were beating on a 250 pt Astra Militarum army.

Drop pods are a tool used by an attacking army. CSM generally don't attack hard targets where they have a good chance of losing. CSM are an NPC army whose purpose in the game is to serve as an enemy for the SM PCs to overcome. Because of this an 1850 pt SM army will be superior to an 1850 pt CSM army by design. Why would 1850 pts of CSM perform a drop pod assault against a superior foe when they know they're going to lose? You don't haul yourself all the way from the Eye of Terror to do a drop pod assault against a bunch of space marines and die. They'd just choose not to attack in the first place. The type of battles typically depicted in the game (equal pts vs equal pts) are not the type of battles in which CSM would deploy via drop pods.

Except that Iron Warriors and Black Legion marines do it.

Do what? Employ drop pods? Or employ drop pods against a superior force when doing so will almost certainly result in defeat?

The CSM codex is designed to portray CSM armies that lose. The battle they won happened "off camera" prior to the one you're fighting now. That's when the drop pods would have been used. If you want to fight that prior battle then you'll have to houserule a special scenario. 1850 pts of CSM with drop pods taken from C:SM vs 250 pts of IG sounds about right.

So the CSM codex should be designed based around losing. What? If I went up to the C:SM and said "you cannot have drop pods because that's not how you use drop pods" everyone would go mental. SM and CSM use their pods in exactly the same way, why should the CSM codex be given such an arbitrary disadvantage.
Why should CSM be the only codex that is actively meant to lose, based on an imaginary previous battle?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And Ultramarines often use methul bawkses and Thunderhawks. They still get pods.

Yup.

And if you want Drop Pods, play Ultramarines. You don't get them for CSM. Why? Who knows.

Because GW thinks that the Chaos counterpart of anything should be.that thing -1. If you cannot come up with a good reason why an army should not have access to something they use in fluff, they should have it.

If that were true, Iron Warriors would still have Basilisks and Guardsmen.

They don't. Some stuff is going to be relegated to the fluff, because while it's made to seem common there? It might not actually be.

You cannot call an opinion false. That they should have soomething has nothing to do with what's in the book itself. Removing pods from C:SM does not as a result meant that all Space Marines should not be having pods. If you're referring to the "thing -1" statement", then it is still not false, due to your own example. Iron Warriors should have artillery, because that's their thing. They are a siege army. Saying that they should not have artillery is like saying that the guard shouldn't have tanks. It's just absurd.

 Selym wrote:
So the CSM codex should be designed based around losing. What?

I never said should. But looking at how mediocre to downright weak the CSM rules are, particularly when compared to SM, and consistently so, I can only conclude this is most likely deliberate.

 Selym wrote:
SM and CSM use their pods in exactly the same way, why should the CSM codex be given such an arbitrary disadvantage.

Because they play different roles in the narrative. The design studio is all about Forging the Narrative and in the narrative CSM are the badguys. They beat up on weaker foes because that's what badguys do. We don't actually play this part of the story because 1850 pts of CSM beating on 250 pts of IG does not make for a very interesting game (this would be where they deploy their drop pods btw).

But then the SM show up. They're the goodguys. And the goodguys prevail through their heroism and innate superiority, not by attacking in greater numbers (good guys fight fair). This is why equal pts of SM are designed to beat equal pts of CSM. This is the battle the respective codices are designed to allow you to reenact. This is why the SM have drop pods and the CSM don't - when the goodguys show up to save the day they swoop in with their drop pods!

Of course I think the above is a horrible way to design a wargame, but I'm not a game designer so what do I know?

 Selym wrote:
Why should CSM be the only codex that is actively meant to lose, based on an imaginary previous battle?

CSM aren't the only NPC faction in the game. Tyranids, Orks and Dark Eldar seem to have been designed to fulfill a similar role. But strangely not Necrons... maybe someone in the studio is fan?

 Selym wrote:
Iron Warriors should have artillery, because that's their thing. They are a siege army. Saying that they should not have artillery is like saying that the guard shouldn't have tanks. It's just absurd.

Actually Iron Warriors don't have a "thing". Only PCs are allowed to be special snowflakes - NPCs like Iron Warriors are supposed to be faceless mooks. No narrative energy need be expended fleshing them out because they aren't the main characters. They exist only to give the main characters something to overcome.

Wow, you really are a bundle of joy when it comes to the CSMs.....

To someone who plays a faction, everyone else in the game is a faceless mook. You might play orks, Jimmy the Ork is an important character to you, to everyone else, he is a mook.

And the good guys prevail? Are you playing 40k? It's called Grimdark because it's a grim dark place to live. Even when the good guys win, they still lose. The imperium is riddled with a thousand bloody cancers slowly edging their way towards its heart. The eye of terror can be seen from a quarter of the Galaxy, and looking at it can make your brain bleed. Chaos space marines are the ultimate traitors, they are the ones who put your God emperor in his golden throne. They will attack you in the middle of the night and take your planet as slaves in order to upkeep the massive Catherdrals on Sicarus, or to use you as part of the temple. Probably both.

So how do they get on your planet? I'm sure they have some way of dropping in from their fleet. Probably some kind of pod used to take them to the surface..... Probably a drop pod......

 welshhoppo wrote:
To someone who plays a faction, everyone else in the game is a faceless mook. You might play orks, Jimmy the Ork is an important character to you, to everyone else, he is a mook.

But not all factions are created equal. You want drop pods? Then maybe you shouldn't have chosen an NPC faction.

 welshhoppo wrote:
And the good guys prevail? Are you playing 40k? It's called Grimdark because it's a grim dark place to live. Even when the good guys win, they still lose. The imperium is riddled with a thousand bloody cancers slowly edging their way towards its heart. The eye of terror can be seen from a quarter of the Galaxy, and looking at it can make your brain bleed. Chaos space marines are the ultimate traitors, they are the ones who put your God emperor in his golden throne. They will attack you in the middle of the night and take your planet as slaves in order to upkeep the massive Catherdrals on Sicarus, or to use you as part of the temple. Probably both.

I don't think the current studio got the memo. They've been steadily moving further away from grimdark and closer to Saturday morning cartoon superheroes for some time now.

Basically CSM don't have pods because well, gee-dubs. There's no real rationale behind it, maybe the CSM left them at home? In all seriousness, there is no real reason why they shouldn't have drop pods of some sort, even if they're just ones from the Heresy. They need something.

They do have ones just from the heresy; you just have to use Forge World.

That said, they would benefit from being Dedicated Transports. Thoughts on that?

They (Dreadclaws) can be taken as dedicated transports for Chaos Marines, and can be fast attack.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
To someone who plays a faction, everyone else in the game is a faceless mook. You might play orks, Jimmy the Ork is an important character to you, to everyone else, he is a mook.

But not all factions are created equal. You want drop pods? Then maybe you shouldn't have chosen an NPC faction

You keep using NPC, but I don't think that word means what you think it means. If you play as a faction, they are not a NPC because.... You know..... You're playing as them.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
To someone who plays a faction, everyone else in the game is a faceless mook. You might play orks, Jimmy the Ork is an important character to you, to everyone else, he is a mook.

But not all factions are created equal. You want drop pods? Then maybe you shouldn't have chosen an NPC faction

You keep using NPC, but I don't think that word means what you think it means. If you play as a faction, they are not a NPC because.... You know..... You're playing as them.

I think the idea is that in Narrative Gaming the CSM player functions almost lIke a DM while his "opponent" controls the PCs. I put "opponent" in quotation marks because this is really a cooperative endeavor - you know, like an RPG. Together you Forge the Narrative of the SM heroes overcoming the faceless CSM mooks.

Honestly, you are better off playing your csm as loyalist and using their pods.


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 War Kitten wrote:
Basically CSM don't have pods because well, gee-dubs. There's no real rationale behind it, maybe the CSM left them at home? In all seriousness, there is no real reason why they shouldn't have drop pods of some sort, even if they're just ones from the Heresy. They need something.

All CSM should be able to teleport onto the table. Also if the squad is killed, it really isnt killed. A roll on a 6s lets them get back into reserves but without any upgrades.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

I think the idea is that in Narrative Gaming the CSM player functions almost lIke a DM while his "opponent" controls the PCs. I put "opponent" in quotation marks because this is really a cooperative endeavor - you know, like an RPG. Together you Forge the Narrative of the SM heroes overcoming the faceless CSM mooks.

Meanwhile, in the real world, Space Marines are not the protagonists, they are in fact the DM's "oh, crap, the party is about to die, better deus ex machina it" device.

The DM being Games Workshop.

It's strange that Chaos has the ability to trap Daemons in tanks, walkers and even weapons yet cannot build what is essentially a tin can that falls from the sky.

Dreadclaws are NOT drop pods, they can be used as drop pods but are designed for ship to ship assaults and are supposed to be extremely rare. Yes, Chaos Marines can use the warp to get from place to place, but the warp is not very reliable method of transportation plus I'm pretty sure that opening up a warp rift is not as easy as people think it is, otherwise there would be more daemon incursions.

Also, the warband , Steel Brotherhood use gunship transports and drop pods in planetary assaults.

The Steel Brethren, also known as the Steel Brotherhood, are a warband of Chaos Space Marines drawn from the Iron Warriors Traitor Legion. Following their parent legion's path, they are dedicated to Chaos Undivided. They have been noted to make extensive use of gunship transports and Drop Pods in their planetary assaults. The Steel Brethren, like all warbands of the Iron Warriors, possess extraordinary skill and experience in siege warfare. The Steel Brethren, when away from the Iron Warriors' Daemon World of Medrengard, operate from the Chaos Cruiser identified as the Ferrum Invictus.