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MiniWarGaming just put up a batrep of Eldar vs new Tau, both bringing GC's. Is this a reasonable example of comparing Eldar to Tau player levels?

Just finished the video. While I think there are some variations due to player skill, I think Tau are definitely comparable to 7th edition Eldar in terms of power level.

https://youtu.be/UxPbKjf5Evs

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Keep in mind that a couple MiniWarGaming videos are not an adequate sample size to determine an armies power. Furthermore, while MWG has made some good videos in the past, their quality has declined as of late; there's a reason why Frontline Gaming are as popular as they are, and it's because they play the top-tier lists very well (especially Reecius).

Let's do a comparison, shall we?

Tau Cheese:
Buffmander in Hunter Contingent
Ability to take multiple relics on the same model
Ignores Cover from Markerlights
Undercosted Riptides
Undercosted Interceptor

Eldar Cheese:
Scatbikers
Wraithknights
D-weapons
Seer Councils of Doom
Warp Spiders' ability to jump away after using their Warp Jump Generators
Allies Shenanigans with DE/Harlequins
Invisibility spam
2+ re-rollable cover saves

As you can plainly see, Eldar beat Tau both in terms of number and concentration of cheese. Let's put it this way: Tau have one trick that makes them OP; Eldar have lots.

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Tau are in a league of their own. Nothing Eldar have compares to Coordinated Firepower.

Sure, it's only one trick, but it's the best trick.

I'm not sure you understand what it means to have every unit count as the same unit, sharing all benefits, for purposes of shooting, especially in an army where all of those units can still shoot different targets.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/13 16:55:05


"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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Tau don't have the scatterlaser. Mike drop.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Tau don't have the scatterlaser. Mike drop.


Didn't seem to help much in the video. Also, mic* unless you really hate some guy named Mike

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 17:47:11


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Right. Good catch.

I guess it's worth pointing out that 2+ armor MCs are one of the few things that scatterlasers don't instantly evaporate.

That being said, I always question the competency of these bat rep people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 17:50:10


 
   
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 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tau are in a league of their own. Nothing Eldar have compares to Coordinated Firepower.

Sure, it's only one trick, but it's the best trick.

I'm not sure you understand what it means to have every unit count as the same unit, sharing all benefits, for purposes of shooting, especially in an army where all of those units can still shoot different targets.


Agreed. Also, in this match especially, who went first seemed to matter a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Right. Good catch.

I guess it's worth pointing out that 2+ armor MCs are one of the few things that scatterlasers don't instantly evaporate.

That being said, I always question the competency of these bat rep people.


Oh definitely. I think Matt and Steve are fairly good, but some of the people who've come in are just terrible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 17:51:06


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How much does the game change if you change to unit by unit activation instead of massive I-go you-go alpha strikes? Just a thought.
   
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Eldar still will reign king, for the simple reason that their cheese doesn't just come from formation rules, it comes from amazing units who get access to incredible formation rules. The only reason Tau are considered so strong with the recent codex is coordinated firepower, without that they're pretty much as strong as they always were (albeit with some new toys). Don't get me wrong, Coordinated Firepower is amazing, but it's still only one rule. Eldar don't have a single rule that gives them D-weapon spam, or scatter lasers on bikes, or warp spiders, or some of the best psykers in the game, or the most undercosted/points efficient GMC in the game. That's just their base codex, before you even consider Warhost. That's the reason why Eldar will continue to reign supreme. Without the Warhost, Eldar are still among the top 5, maybe even top 3 armies. With it? Nothing can truly stand up to them every time. Tau are very good, but only get to the top of the pile with the Hunter Contingent. Without it, they're still upper middle of the pack as they have been all of 7th.

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DarknessEternal wrote:Tau are in a league of their own. Nothing Eldar have compares to Coordinated Firepower.

Sure, it's only one trick, but it's the best trick.

I'm not sure you understand what it means to have every unit count as the same unit, sharing all benefits, for purposes of shooting, especially in an army where all of those units can still shoot different targets.

Unfortunately, the ITC seems to have agreed with you and opted for a strict RAW interpretation of Coordinated Firepower. According to them, due to the wording of Coordinated Firepower, the only special rules that can be shared are Markerlights and +1 BS. Buffmanders only affect the unit that they have joined. Eldar, on the other hand, have to be nerfed in several places under the ITC just to give other armies a chance.
GI_Redshirt wrote:Eldar still will reign king, for the simple reason that their cheese doesn't just come from formation rules, it comes from amazing units who get access to incredible formation rules. The only reason Tau are considered so strong with the recent codex is coordinated firepower, without that they're pretty much as strong as they always were (albeit with some new toys). Don't get me wrong, Coordinated Firepower is amazing, but it's still only one rule. Eldar don't have a single rule that gives them D-weapon spam, or scatter lasers on bikes, or warp spiders, or some of the best psykers in the game, or the most undercosted/points efficient GMC in the game. That's just their base codex, before you even consider Warhost. That's the reason why Eldar will continue to reign supreme. Without the Warhost, Eldar are still among the top 5, maybe even top 3 armies. With it? Nothing can truly stand up to them every time. Tau are very good, but only get to the top of the pile with the Hunter Contingent. Without it, they're still upper middle of the pack as they have been all of 7th.

Hold on: Eldar aren't cheesy with their formation rules, but their formation rules take them over the top? Color me confused.

I do agree with your argument that Tau are only powerful at a tournament-level due to Coordinated Firepower. They got seriously shafted with their update, as it fixed none of their underlying problems.

The only overpowered thing about the Warhost is the ability to take multiple Wraithknights. An automatic six inch run move for Battle Focus has nothing on Coordinated Firepower, re-roll marines, or Res Protocols.

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Oh please, everyone is crying op even though so far I havent seen Tau perform exceptionally anywhere with coordinated firepower.

This game was no different, at no point did coordinated firepower have any decisive impact. Poor play, poor dice and poor choices decided this game.

- No ranged D weapons
- Deployed extremely clustered and defensively than shows valuable targets piecemeal
- Terrible Rolls, just terrible
   
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Hold on: Eldar aren't cheesy with their formation rules, but their formation rules take them over the top? Color me confused.


Sorry, worded that a bit strangely. I meant that Eldar don't need their formation rules to be cheesy, they are cheesy enough without them. When you add the formation rules, they become even more OP. With them, they are insane, without them, they are still incredible and pretty darn cheesy. Same can't be said for Tau.

Unfortunately, the ITC seems to have agreed with you and opted for a strict RAW interpretation of Coordinated Firepower. According to them, due to the wording of Coordinated Firepower, the only special rules that can be shared are Markerlights and +1 BS. Buffmanders only affect the unit that they have joined. Eldar, on the other hand, have to be nerfed in several places under the ITC just to give other armies a chance.


Did ITC say this? I know Reecius made a blog post about it, but I was under the impression that ITC had not made an official ruling on it yet and were in fact leaning towards special rules being shared across coordinated firepower, but not target locks don't work with coordinated firepower. I could be wrong, and if so please point me to the post about their ruling, but I thought all that was just one guy's opinions/desires on the matter rather than the official ruling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 20:00:52


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 TheNewBlood wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:Tau are in a league of their own. Nothing Eldar have compares to Coordinated Firepower.

Sure, it's only one trick, but it's the best trick.

I'm not sure you understand what it means to have every unit count as the same unit, sharing all benefits, for purposes of shooting, especially in an army where all of those units can still shoot different targets.

Unfortunately, the ITC seems to have agreed with you and opted for a strict RAW interpretation of Coordinated Firepower. According to them, due to the wording of Coordinated Firepower, the only special rules that can be shared are Markerlights and +1 BS. Buffmanders only affect the unit that they have joined. Eldar, on the other hand, have to be nerfed in several places under the ITC just to give other armies a chance.


Please stop spreading this. It is not true. They have NOT agreed on an ruling on this yet. In fact, in their recent podcast, they are learning TOWARD sharing the rules, just not spreading with target locks

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notredameguy10 wrote:
 TheNewBlood wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:Tau are in a league of their own. Nothing Eldar have compares to Coordinated Firepower.

Sure, it's only one trick, but it's the best trick.

I'm not sure you understand what it means to have every unit count as the same unit, sharing all benefits, for purposes of shooting, especially in an army where all of those units can still shoot different targets.

Unfortunately, the ITC seems to have agreed with you and opted for a strict RAW interpretation of Coordinated Firepower. According to them, due to the wording of Coordinated Firepower, the only special rules that can be shared are Markerlights and +1 BS. Buffmanders only affect the unit that they have joined. Eldar, on the other hand, have to be nerfed in several places under the ITC just to give other armies a chance.


Please stop spreading this. It is not true. They have NOT agreed on an ruling on this yet. In fact, in their recent podcast, they are learning TOWARD sharing the rules, just not spreading with target locks

I see. Thank you; I was under the impression that they had already made a ruling on this in their FAQ for Tau.

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Edgarion wrote:
Oh please, everyone is crying op even though so far I havent seen Tau perform exceptionally anywhere with coordinated firepower.

This game was no different, at no point did coordinated firepower have any decisive impact. Poor play, poor dice and poor choices decided this game.

- No ranged D weapons
- Deployed extremely clustered and defensively than shows valuable targets piecemeal
- Terrible Rolls, just terrible


It did't help that Matt's shooting with the stormsurge, and then going back and selecting new targets for the 2nd volley made it way more powerful.

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 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Edgarion wrote:
Oh please, everyone is crying op even though so far I havent seen Tau perform exceptionally anywhere with coordinated firepower.

This game was no different, at no point did coordinated firepower have any decisive impact. Poor play, poor dice and poor choices decided this game.

- No ranged D weapons
- Deployed extremely clustered and defensively than shows valuable targets piecemeal
- Terrible Rolls, just terrible


It did't help that Matt's shooting with the stormsurge, and then going back and selecting new targets for the 2nd volley made it way more powerful.


You are allowed to make the 2nd shooting attack at a different target than the first. There is nothing preventing that.

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