Terror Attack in Paris. update page 23

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**whembly**

LethalShade wrote:

EDIT : I'd add that :

"Même pas peur." "Not even scared."

You damn right!

Any arrests yet on the collaborators?

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Just when you thought things couldn't get worse for France, they've had a big train crash near Strasbourg. More people dead

**Dreadclaw69**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Good article in the Guardian about French intelligence capabilities

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/french-intelligence-under-scrutiny-paris-attacks

BBC saying that at least one of the attackers was French, with 3 from Belgium.

France has been here before with home grown terrorists (OAS springs to mind) but it always comes as a shock to see people turning on their own country like this.

I would hope that the French Intelligence Service has a very sober and honest look inwards after this recent attack as it comes very close after the Charlie Hebdo attacks.

**Grey Templar**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
If we do go boots on the ground it should be overwhelming force. We can outnumber them if we want, if we go in we should do so. Any position we detect or think we detect gets the everloving crap blown out of it with artillery and airpower, troops advancing slowly and inexorably behind a curtain of firepower.

Even if you guys went in there full force with 100,000 troops, I doubt it would make much of a difference to be honest. The entire region seems to be completely and utterly fethed up.

Makes the job easier if everyone in the AO is your enemy. Anyway, I think the only goal should be eradicate ISIS(and I mean actually eradicate) then pull everything out and don't get sucked into recovery efforts unless the region stabilizes itself. If another threat like ISIS remerges and begins attacking the West, rinse and repeat. If they all devolve back to primitive tribal nomads that's ok too.

**DalinCriid**

Silent Puffin? wrote:
DalinCriid wrote:
I stand for this opinion and I don't care if does not fit the leftist political correct agenda.

Which will do absolutely nothing to deter homegrown terrorists (which at least half of those involved here appear to be) nor will it do much to interrupt the supply of arms which this kind of operation absolutely depends upon.

But it will help to prevent real terrorists merging with the refugees.
About the homegrown terrorists... those are the fruits of decades of wrong politics.I don't want to dive in a political debate about that... In the end I think our society will end in a future that is really close to Minority Report. In order to prevent crimes we will limit all of our freedoms.

**LethalShade**

whembly wrote:
LethalShade wrote:

EDIT : I'd add that :

"Même pas peur." "Not even scared."

You damn right!

Any arrests yet on the collaborators?

Nope. Or they're not saying it.
Heard from a friend that someone was arrested at the entrance of a Metro station in Marseilles, near a crowd, with an AK. Probably just an amateur "inspired" by the attacks.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

From Wikileaks on Facebook:

Wikileaks wrote:How President Hollande's statement on Paris Attacks triggers NATO Article 5
http://www.nato.int/terrorism/five.htm

**Knockagh**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Knockagh wrote:
I'm sorry but you are quite wrong. ISIS are not nihilists they have a clear goal the establishment of their twisted version of an Islamic state. The IRAs stated goal was the removal of the British presence in Ireland and the creation of a socialist republic not a united Ireland that meant removing anyone who held unionism as a political belief which they interpreted as the Protestant people. ISIS will remove or bully anyone from the state they want to create who won't agree with them just as the IRA tried to remove or destroy those who disagreed with them from Ireland. The conflict with ISIS is in its infancy their will be many talks battles and trade offs with them in the years to come.

My point in drawing the comparisons was to show how we as civilised humans want to respond to inhumanity and barbarism but the complexity of effective response is generally beyond us and will take generations to come to any form of, imperfect, conclusion.

As someone born in Northern Ireland and who lived there for almost 30 years before emigrating I am sorry to say that your IRA and ISIS comparison is wholly disingenuous. The IRA wanted to have Ireland returned to the Irish and to remove the British presence from the island. It was a political struggle which used religion as a convenient designation for each side based on historic events (Reformation, Plantation, English Civil War, etc.). It was not a religiously motivated conflict. The fact that the primary motivation for the IRA was a political solution meant that eventually they could be negotiated with. The IRA was almost exclusively comprised of those born in Ireland.

ISIS on the other land want to establish a religious territory that they control which is not an established country that they are trying to free from a foreign presence. ISIS is motivated primarily by their religious interpretations of religious doctrine that other read without recourse to violence. ISIS has also has their ranks swollen from those sympathetic to their beliefs across the Middle East and beyond.

The comparison is not there for those who don't want to see it but I will rest easy that history will prove me right. I didn't say the NI conflict was about religion. It was political with religious roots. Just as the establishment of an Islamic state is political with religious roots. The religious element is much much more pronounced in IS at present but when wars lull and statesmen are needed in the new Islamic state politics will come to the fore. I doubt IS have even fully worked out their proposals for government but they will given time. History is long and I think this will be a long conflict it is really afterall the worlds oldest conflict given new energy.

I'm off out into Belfast tonight I will be sitting in a bar like many innocent Frenchmen and women were last night, I hope and pray for peace across all conflicts tonight and that men of violence and their apologists are frustrated at every turn.

**Dreadclaw69**

Knockagh wrote:
The comparison is not there for those who don't want to see it but I will rest easy that history will prove me right.

I'm off out into Belfast tonight I will be sitting in a bar like many innocent Frenchmen and women were last night, I hope and pray for peace across all conflicts tonight and that men of violence and their apologists are frustrated at every turn.

You are wrong and history has already proven it. Enjoy your night out, stay safe.

**Grey Templar**

Now there are some unconfirmed reports that there were Americans who may have been hurt in the attacks.

**LethalShade**

Grey Templar wrote:
Now there are some unconfirmed reports that there were Americans who may have been hurt in the attacks.

It was a Californian band, so that's likely.

**d-usa**

Arrests made in Belgium.

**Tactical_Spam**

Anyone else expecting other countries to close their borders? I know the US wont even after the substancial evidence that one of the Attackers was from Syria.

**MWHistorian**

I'd rather help refugees and risk terrorists getting in than ignore the plight of thousands of people in need. But that's just me. I can't speak for entire countries.

**Tactical_Spam**

MWHistorian wrote:
I'd rather help refugees and risk terrorists getting in than ignore the plight of thousands of people in need. But that's just me. I can't speak for entire countries.

You'd threaten more people by letting the refugees in and having a "Trojan Horse" effect like Paris just had. We can't help them if that means putting them and our country in danger

**Nostromodamus**

Grey Templar wrote:
Now there are some unconfirmed reports that there were Americans who may have been hurt in the attacks.

Probably all manner of nationalities hurt taking into account tourists, international soccer match and overseas band playing.

**MWHistorian**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
I'd rather help refugees and risk terrorists getting in than ignore the plight of thousands of people in need. But that's just me. I can't speak for entire countries.

You'd threaten more people by letting the refugees in and having a "Trojan Horse" effect like Paris just had. We can't help them if that means putting them and our country in danger

I fully understand that and I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just thinking, there has to be a way to help them and maintain security.

**Freakazoitt**

All who lives in any capital cities - stay alert be careful these days. There is a high probability that attacks will be in other countries too.

**d-usa**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
I'd rather help refugees and risk terrorists getting in than ignore the plight of thousands of people in need. But that's just me. I can't speak for entire countries.

You'd threaten more people by letting the refugees in and having a "Trojan Horse" effect like Paris just had. We can't help them if that means putting them and our country in danger

Not to sound heartless, but there are more dead refugees washing up on the shores than there are dead people in Paris.

Yes, refugees can mask terrorist and you always have a risk of attacks. But turning them away does nothing to decrease the body count either, it's just different bodies in different places for different reasons. We might not see them on our TV screens, which makes it easier to ignore, but they are still there.

**Mr. Burning**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
Anyone else expecting other countries to close their borders? I know the US wont even after the substancial evidence that one of the Attackers was from Syria.

Maybe we should close our borders against the US as well? I don't want the chance that a Timothy McVeigh might be among tourists and workers visiting my country.

**Matthew**

These attacks show that this can happen anywhere. I just hope they don't come in as refugees.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit, refugees in Sweden say that IS warriors have been on the same boats and busses as themselves. Feth.

**Tactical_Spam**

Mr. Burning wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Anyone else expecting other countries to close their borders? I know the US wont even after the substancial evidence that one of the Attackers was from Syria.

Maybe we should close our borders against the US as well? I don't want the chance that a Timothy McVeigh might be among tourists and workers visiting my country.

Right, because someone could sneak a truck full of Explosives across the atlantic and not get caught by anyone. Great theory, but ultimately fiction. The serious threat is the Terrorists hiding amongst the refugees

**Mr. Burning**

Matthew wrote:
These attacks show that this can happen anywhere. I just hope they don't come in as refugees.

Frenchman born in 1985 has been mentioned as one of the terrorists. The refugees are not the problem here.

**d-usa**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Anyone else expecting other countries to close their borders? I know the US wont even after the substancial evidence that one of the Attackers was from Syria.

Maybe we should close our borders against the US as well? I don't want the chance that a Timothy McVeigh might be among tourists and workers visiting my country.

Right, because someone could sneak a truck full of Explosives across the atlantic and not get caught by anyone. Great theory, but ultimately fiction. The serious threat is the Terrorists hiding amongst the refugees

A long list of terrorist attacks that happened before refugees were a thing disagrees with you.

**Grey Templar**

Mr. Burning wrote:
Matthew wrote:
These attacks show that this can happen anywhere. I just hope they don't come in as refugees.

Frenchman born in 1985 has been mentioned as one of the terrorists. The refugees are not the problem here.

Which only means that 1 of them was a frenchman. It doesn't mean the others weren't, or that they weren't inspired to do it by a leader that ISIS smuggled into the country. Or that he didn't go to ISIS for training and then came back.

**Tactical_Spam**

d-usa wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Anyone else expecting other countries to close their borders? I know the US wont even after the substancial evidence that one of the Attackers was from Syria.

Maybe we should close our borders against the US as well? I don't want the chance that a Timothy McVeigh might be among tourists and workers visiting my country.

Right, because someone could sneak a truck full of Explosives across the atlantic and not get caught by anyone. Great theory, but ultimately fiction. The serious threat is the Terrorists hiding amongst the refugees

A long list of terrorist attacks that happened before refugees were a thing disagrees with you.

To disregard the idea that terrorists are hiding among the refugees would be foolish

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Matthew wrote:
These attacks show that this can happen anywhere. I just hope they don't come in as refugees.

Frenchman born in 1985 has been mentioned as one of the terrorists. The refugees are not the problem here.

Which only means that 1 of them was a frenchman. It doesn't mean the others weren't, or that they weren't inspired to do it by a leader that ISIS smuggled into the country. Or that he didn't go to ISIS for training and then came back.

The frenchman was arrested before for supposed links to radical islamic terrorists.

**Mr. Burning**

Grey Templar wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Matthew wrote:
These attacks show that this can happen anywhere. I just hope they don't come in as refugees.

Frenchman born in 1985 has been mentioned as one of the terrorists. The refugees are not the problem here.

Which only means that 1 of them was a frenchman. It doesn't mean the others weren't, or that they weren't inspired to do it by a leader that ISIS smuggled into the country. Or that he didn't go to ISIS for training and then came back.

I should maybe clarify that I believe that helping refugees and allowing them help within our borders (Europe) is a great thing to do. Of course some terrorists maybe among those coming over from current war zones.

You cannot stop people hating you, you cannot prevent all atrocities or attacks but you don't just stop helping the needy because something may or may not happen.

Radicaliziation among those citizens already in country is one of the key issues to be tackled along with limiting access to those who want to cause harm.

**d-usa**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Anyone else expecting other countries to close their borders? I know the US wont even after the substancial evidence that one of the Attackers was from Syria.

Maybe we should close our borders against the US as well? I don't want the chance that a Timothy McVeigh might be among tourists and workers visiting my country.

Right, because someone could sneak a truck full of Explosives across the atlantic and not get caught by anyone. Great theory, but ultimately fiction. The serious threat is the Terrorists hiding amongst the refugees

A long list of terrorist attacks that happened before refugees were a thing disagrees with you.

To disregard the idea that terrorists are hiding among the refugees would be foolish

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Matthew wrote:
These attacks show that this can happen anywhere. I just hope they don't come in as refugees.

Frenchman born in 1985 has been mentioned as one of the terrorists. The refugees are not the problem here.

Which only means that 1 of them was a frenchman. It doesn't mean the others weren't, or that they weren't inspired to do it by a leader that ISIS smuggled into the country. Or that he didn't go to ISIS for training and then came back.

The frenchman was arrested before for supposed links to radical islamic terrorists.

This post also is the best example why "closing the borders" won't do much, or that refugees are the problem.

Countries need to balance their needs for safety with their obligations towards refugees, and I don't think you will truly find anybody arguing against that. But "don't let refugees in" or other thoughts along that line won't do much to stop this, nor are refugees the cause of it.

**Tactical_Spam**

The primary goal should be eliminating the source at its root. This is Nazi Germany all over again

**Mr. Burning**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
The primary goal should be eliminating the source at its root. This is Nazi Germany all over again

What the hell?