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 insaniak wrote:

DutchWinsAll wrote:

Yes, because they're the average Jihadi. Western loners with no idea of Islam are the ones fueling the jihadi armies in thousands. Not locals who learned for years in the madrassas, just apparently foreigners with "little if any actual knowledge if Islam"

How do you get that from what I actually said?

Nowhere did I suggest that every member of ISIL was a foreigner with no idea of Islam. Just that they're in the mix... in response to your claim that a 'devout belief in one's faith' was the sole motivating factor in people joining up.

It's clearly not, and regardless of how sarcastic you get, different people are going to have different motivations.

I notice you didn't address my other point. If not a devout belief in the cause, why would anyone join up and put their life very much in danger? They do believe, they just don't have much of a practical knowledge on the subject; but they are still devout believers. IS revels in showing the world what they do, so nobody is joining up without some knowledge of what the group stands for.

Again, does an American soldier need a vast working knowledge of American history and the mechanics of US Govt to be considered a soldier for America? No, of course not. So why do jihadis? Even if all they know of Islam is the name Mohammed, they are still devout enough to support, kill, and die for Islam, regardless by joining up.

DutchWinsAll wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

DutchWinsAll wrote:

Yes, because they're the average Jihadi. Western loners with no idea of Islam are the ones fueling the jihadi armies in thousands. Not locals who learned for years in the madrassas, just apparently foreigners with "little if any actual knowledge if Islam"

How do you get that from what I actually said?

Nowhere did I suggest that every member of ISIL was a foreigner with no idea of Islam. Just that they're in the mix... in response to your claim that a 'devout belief in one's faith' was the sole motivating factor in people joining up.

It's clearly not, and regardless of how sarcastic you get, different people are going to have different motivations.

I notice you didn't address my other point. If not a devout belief in the cause, why would anyone join up and put their life very much in danger? They do believe, they just don't have much of a practical knowledge on the subject; but they are still devout believers. IS revels in showing the world what they do, so nobody is joining up without some knowledge of what the group stands for.

Again, does an American soldier need a vast working knowledge of American history and the mechanics of US Govt to be considered a soldier for America? No, of course not. So why do jihadis? Even if all they know of Islam is the name Mohammed, they are still devout enough to support, kill, and die for Islam, regardless by joining up.

Which only works if you really believe that these people were just going about their business, someone told them "hey, Mohammed says you should die while fighting non-Muslims", and that person then drops whatever it is they are doing, thinks "well, I guess I am Muslim, let's go kill and die", and attacks the west. They have a cause and they are devout in it, but that cause can be many different things.

Which goes against everything we have learned over and over again both from Muslims that are not fighting, as well as Muslims that are doing the fighting.

The fighters are Muslim, but they are also fighting for many reasons other than "Islam says so". They fight for many of the reasons that motivate our own soldiers to fight for the US: they want safety for their family, they want stability, they want to fight against enemies that attacked them. They are Muslims that are fighting, but that doesn't automatically make them fighters because they are Muslim nor does it make all other Muslims fighters. Just like the US military is not a Christian Army killing in the name of Jesus, even though the majority of soldiers are Christian.

DutchWinsAll wrote:
If not a devout belief in the cause, why would anyone join up and put their life very much in danger? .

Because they are promised payment.
Because they like killing stuff.
Because they are crazy.
Because they hate [insert nation/race/religion here] and were promised the chance to attack them.
Because they are forced to.
Because they felt obliged to.
Because it's all they know, and they had no reason not to.


That's just straight off the top of my head. I'm sure there are any number of other reasons that someone could conceivably join a movement like this without being particularly devout.

 insaniak wrote:

DutchWinsAll wrote:
If not a devout belief in the cause, why would anyone join up and put their life very much in danger? .

Because they are promised payment.
Because they like killing stuff.
Because they are crazy.
Because they hate [insert nation/race/religion here] and were promised the chance to attack them.
Because they are forced to.
Because they felt obliged to.
Because it's all they know, and they had no reason not to.


That's just straight off the top of my head. I'm sure there are any number of other reasons that someone could conceivably join a movement like this without being particularly devout.

In addition to all of that I freely admit, and I think that insaniak would probably agree, that for some the motivation is that they believe that they are "holy Muslim warriors killing and raping for the glory of Mohammed because that's what the prophet wants us to do and what the Quran says to do". But for groups like ISIS it's just not their only cause, and I feel pretty confident in arguing that it's not even their main cause.

 insaniak wrote:

DutchWinsAll wrote:
If not a devout belief in the cause, why would anyone join up and put their life very much in danger? .

Because they are promised payment.
Because they like killing stuff.
Because they are crazy.
Because they hate [insert nation/race/religion here] and were promised the chance to attack them.
Because they are forced to.
Because they felt obliged to.
Because it's all they know, and they had no reason not to.


That's just straight off the top of my head. I'm sure there are any number of other reasons that someone could conceivably join a movement like this without being particularly devout.

Well, according to our benevolent new Prime Minister Moron, the reason behind foreign fighters joining is simply that they weren't hugged enough and society excluded them.

 d-usa wrote:

DutchWinsAll wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

DutchWinsAll wrote:

Yes, because they're the average Jihadi. Western loners with no idea of Islam are the ones fueling the jihadi armies in thousands. Not locals who learned for years in the madrassas, just apparently foreigners with "little if any actual knowledge if Islam"

How do you get that from what I actually said?

Nowhere did I suggest that every member of ISIL was a foreigner with no idea of Islam. Just that they're in the mix... in response to your claim that a 'devout belief in one's faith' was the sole motivating factor in people joining up.

It's clearly not, and regardless of how sarcastic you get, different people are going to have different motivations.

I notice you didn't address my other point. If not a devout belief in the cause, why would anyone join up and put their life very much in danger? They do believe, they just don't have much of a practical knowledge on the subject; but they are still devout believers. IS revels in showing the world what they do, so nobody is joining up without some knowledge of what the group stands for.

Again, does an American soldier need a vast working knowledge of American history and the mechanics of US Govt to be considered a soldier for America? No, of course not. So why do jihadis? Even if all they know of Islam is the name Mohammed, they are still devout enough to support, kill, and die for Islam, regardless by joining up.

Which only works if you really believe that these people were just going about their business, someone told them "hey, Mohammed says you should die while fighting non-Muslims", and that person then drops whatever it is they are doing, thinks "well, I guess I am Muslim, let's go kill and die", and attacks the west. They have a cause and they are devout in it, but that cause can be many different things.

Which goes against everything we have learned over and over again both from Muslims that are not fighting, as well as Muslims that are doing the fighting.

The fighters are Muslim, but they are also fighting for many reasons other than "Islam says so". They fight for many of the reasons that motivate our own soldiers to fight for the US: they want safety for their family, they want stability, they want to fight against enemies that attacked them. They are Muslims that are fighting, but that doesn't automatically make them fighters because they are Muslim nor does it make all other Muslims fighters. Just like the US military is not a Christian Army killing in the name of Jesus, even though the majority of soldiers are Christian.

But do you honestly think that if they didn't have this belief system that espouses killing non-believers and indeed even commands them to forcibly convert other people that the problem would be anywhere close to as bad as this?

These terrorists aren't shouting "down with the establishment!" or "I deserve better treatment" when they blow themselves up. They're shouting "Allah Akbar!" and "Die Infidel!". That seems pretty clear cut that they are doing this in the name of Islam, not because they were treated poorly. And other factors don't explain why many terrorists are highly educated and often well off prior to turning to extremism, nothing explains those types of people turning terrorist.

The ideology attracts the disenfranchised, and it incites them to acts they would not otherwise have committed. I'd say that is a fairly clear cut causality. Being disenfranchised might have caused them to be vulnerable to the lures of extremism, but it wasn't what made them do the despicable acts. The ideology, and their conscious decision to follow it, is what drove them to that point. Otherwise the worst that might have happened is they turn to simple criminal activities, but a violent ideology came along and snagged them with some of the more violent core tenets of Islam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

DutchWinsAll wrote:
If not a devout belief in the cause, why would anyone join up and put their life very much in danger? .

1) Because they are promised payment.
2) Because they like killing stuff.
3) Because they are crazy.
4) Because they hate [insert nation/race/religion here] and were promised the chance to attack them.
5) Because they are forced to.
6) Because they felt obliged to.
7) Because it's all they know, and they had no reason not to.


That's just straight off the top of my head. I'm sure there are any number of other reasons that someone could conceivably join a movement like this without being particularly devout.

4, 6, and 7 seem pretty tied to their religious beliefs. 1 as well if we include the promised 72 virgins.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Well, according to our benevolent new Prime Minister Moron, the reason behind foreign fighters joining is simply that they weren't hugged enough and society excluded them.

That's not just something that he's come up with out of thin air, though. It's been suggested by various experts looking into the reasons for people from western countries to get dragged into this mess.

Although there's no 'simply' about it. Turning into a murderous fanatic as a result of being made a pariah by the society you're trying to live in isn't something that happens 'simply'.

Can I say I don't care what reason ISIS is using to justify their actions?

Is that allowed?

There is no justification for what they're doing... right? I mean, they did:
-The beheading of 21 Egyptian Christians in Libya
-The live burning of Jordanian Pilot Moaz al-Kasasbeh
-The capturing and parading of Kurdish Fighters in Iraq
-The slaughering of the Kazidzi
-The aborrent sex slave industry
-The Crucification
-Throwing gay men off highrise to their deaths
-and, on and on and on.

This is *more* than a religious war... this is simply an existential war in that region.

Olive branch and a letter from the west saying "my bad" isn't going to stop them...

 Grey Templar wrote:
But do you honestly think that if they didn't have this belief system that espouses killing non-believers and indeed even commands them to forcibly convert other people that the problem would be anywhere close to as bad as this?

Yes. Violent people will find an excuse to be violent. If there was no Islam, they would find another excuse.

There are plenty of non-muslims out there in the world doing horrible things. There are Christians doing horrible things in Africa. There are Buddhists doing horrible things in Myanmar. Extremists will find an excuse regardless of the specific ideology.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
Can I say I don't care what reason ISIS is using to justify their actions?

Is that allowed?.

Why wouldn't it be?

I don't believe anyone here was trying to 'justify' their actions.

 insaniak wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
But do you honestly think that if they didn't have this belief system that espouses killing non-believers and indeed even commands them to forcibly convert other people that the problem would be anywhere close to as bad as this?

Yes. Violent people will find an excuse to be violent. If there was no Islam, they would find another excuse.

There are plenty of non-muslims out there in the world doing horrible things. There are Christians doing horrible things in Africa. There are Buddhists doing horrible things in Myanmar. Extremists will find an excuse regardless of the specific ideology.

Yup. Exactly.

Christians at the time of the crusaders claimed to fight in the name of god. But most people forget that people back then really didn't care about the their religion they simply did out of excuse. They did it for power, not because they wanted to serve their god.

People can blame religion for the worlds ills, but humanity would find another reason to kill each other.

I agree that religion in general and as a general rule is not the cause of violence. I do however think that certain religions are predisposed to causing violent acts in its believers, Islam being the best example.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I agree that religion in general and as a general rule is not the cause of violence. I do however think that certain religions are predisposed to causing violent acts in its believers, Islam being the best example.

I disagree actually. I think it is based on region. I mean the entirety of the middle east is basically made out of arid climates, (you can thank the ancient empires that destroyed all the agriculture and sowed salt into the land, Thanks Genghis!)

I believe we call this Geography Politics as people are taught things over generations and different values because of where they live.

I wouldn't blame a religion for the problems, I would blame the way people are taught about human life, and what its inclination is. The middle east has very different values compared to the West. And vice versa, Each part of the world is very unique and very different from one another. We as a people are so radically different from each other it is kind of hard to wrap our head around the fact that these people are so different from us. But where there are differences there are similarities. Infact, I am very supportative of the Muslim Culture. I find it fascinating, its people noble and honorable. This is not as some foreigner but someone who studied them for many years. (along with most religions). It may seem violent but many of its people just want piece. The Radical elements take its texts literally and not the way it was intended to be taken. Same with the Christians and their bible there are certain sections that are meant to be metaphors. Infact one part of the bible talks about not all should believe in god, as choice was given by God for a good reason or so the bible says.

The Muslim Culture and Religion is very similar to the christians but its 'newer' (in terms of age) but it follows a more borderline basis with the Jewish Peoples. (Very similar values, infact they have more similarities with each other than they do with the Christians)

Its a complicated situation. But its one that I constantly have to educate people about. The Muslim people aren't bad, only its radical elements.

As any religion has had its violent spurts at some time or another.

I do think regions have a huge impact on cultural development, but really the area was arid long before the Mongols came through the area. You'd be hard pressed to find enough salt to totally destroy an agricultural area that large on such a permanent basis.

Infact one part of the bible talks about not all should believe in god, as choice was given by God for a good reason or so the bible says.

Errm, I think you misread something. The Bible does say that not everyone will believe, but it never says that's ok. Its their free will, and depending on choices punishment and blessing will follow.

 Grey Templar wrote:
4, 6, and 7 seem pretty tied to their religious beliefs. 1 as well if we include the promised 72 virgins.

They really don't, at least not necessarily.

4) "The US killed my family/friends/whatever because they were within the blast radius when the US launched a drone strike on a terrorist. I WILL MAKE THEM PAY."

5) "They invade our territory and interfere in our business, killing them is the right thing to do because it will get them to leave."

7) "I can barely afford to eat, my prospects for advancing in life are nonexistent, so why not keep fighting and at least make it a quick death?"

There are plenty of reasons why people would fight for a religious cause without being devout believers in that religion.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I do think regions have a huge impact on cultural development, but really the area was arid long before the Mongols came through the area. You'd be hard pressed to find enough salt to totally destroy an agricultural area that large on such a permanent basis.

Well the Mongols made it worse by comparison there is a good reason it was called the fertile crescent for a long time!

Now its no-longer that.

Errm, I think you misread something. The Bible does say that not everyone will believe, but it never says that's ok. Its their free will, and depending on choices punishment and blessing will follow.

Technically no. But in a weird way it does. Not everyone will choose to follow god because of freewill. It is not up to the christians to convert everyone. I mean the bible says its fine to doubt in the idea of god, and its fine to have doubt in your faith. ITs not like the bible was written with the intention of it being taken completely literally.

There are metaphors in it that relate to our daily life that we take as testimony and examples to live by.

They really don't, at least not necessarily.

4) "The US killed my family/friends/whatever because they were within the blast radius when the US launched a drone strike on a terrorist. I WILL MAKE THEM PAY."

5) "They invade our territory and interfere in our business, killing them is the right thing to do because it will get them to leave."

7) "I can barely afford to eat, my prospects for advancing in life are nonexistent, so why not keep fighting and at least make it a quick death?"

There are plenty of reasons why people would fight for a religious cause without being devout believers in that religion.

Basically.

You also forgot the "My homeland was defiled."

"Those Westerners did this to us!"

"They are trying to take away our culture!"

Its very common for a culture to try and think its being tossed away by a very absorbent one. You can see that within the United States. With what people do everyday, they protest and live in fear that the country they saw quickly change.

(This has alot to do with ISIS)

ISIS is in fear that the ways it treasure are going away completely because of the Dominancy and power of the Western Culture. They don't like the idea. (plus the other myriads of things)

 insaniak wrote:

There are plenty of non-muslims out there in the world doing horrible things. There are Christians doing horrible things in Africa. There are Buddhists doing horrible things in Myanmar. Extremists will find an excuse regardless of the specific ideology.

ELF/ALF are blowing stuff up because of squirrels and trees, it really doesn't take much for some people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I do think regions have a huge impact on cultural development, but really the area was arid long before the Mongols came through the area. You'd be hard pressed to find enough salt to totally destroy an agricultural area that large on such a permanent basis.

Well the Mongols made it worse by comparison there is a good reason it was called the fertile crescent for a long time!

Now its no-longer that.

Global Warming, that's why climate change is the biggest threat to our national security

 insaniak wrote:

...given that we've had reports for some time now of people heading to the middle east to join ISIL despite having little if any actual knowledge of Islam.

The issue with French youths leaving for Syria is that most of them are uncultured and ignorants wanting to "become someone", and who did it by learning some quotes (not necessarily true ones) from the Quran and acting like fundamentalists.
To sum up, they act tough because they don't know what to do with their life.

Hell, look at Mohammed Merah, the guy tried to become a legionary before becoming a jihadist.

Word is a lot of the people leaving the west and going to Syria aren't even being recruited. They're just being executed or turned into slave labor.

They probably realized the awful truth and have second thoughts but too late to turn around and leave.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They probably realized the awful truth and have second thoughts but too late to turn around and leave.

Haven't a lot of jihadis already tried to leave ISIS ?

(Just woke up, not sure if this sentence is grammatically correct )

Nothing specifically that I have heard. But I could see some people realizing that they don't have the stomach for ISIS's brand of Islam and try to leave.

Whatever happened to all the chicks wanting to go over there to marry them?

I still wonder why a woman would willingly join an extremist Islamist cult.

Because people are stupid.

 d-usa wrote:
Whatever happened to all the chicks wanting to go over there to marry them?

Hmm, you know the chatter about that has dried up. I wonder if its just the world moving on to the next shocking thing and it still happens or if people actually wised up and realized its not a good idea.

I've read that a lot of the people who go to join ISIS are people who distrust their own governments and media representations of ISIS and think of it as pure Western Propaganda.

They're further groomed online by ISIS recruiters and eventually decide they're going to go over there, thinking it's far better than the liars in the BBC or w/e say.

When they get there, a lot of them then realise what a huge mistake they've made. ISIS has executed quite a lot of people trying to go back, and imprisoned many who refuse to fight. Not even going to go into what they do to the women.

 MrDwhitey wrote:

When they get there, a lot of them then realise what a huge mistake they've made. ISIS has executed quite a lot of people trying to go back, and imprisoned many who refuse to fight. Not even going to go into what they do to the women.

Shh, enough with your western propaganda

Careful guys, we're getting awfully close to blaming the victim

Honestly we're pretty stupid and impressionable when younger, and having an underlying distrust of what's told to you by western media exacerbated by a trained recruiter of "the other side", I can see how it works well.

 MrDwhitey wrote:

They're further groomed online by ISIS recruiters and eventually decide they're going to go over there, thinking it's far better than the liars in the BBC or w/e say.

When they get there, a lot of them then realise what a huge mistake they've made.

Sounds a little like going to basic training...

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Honestly we're pretty stupid and impressionable when younger, and having an underlying distrust of what's told to you by western media exacerbated by a trained recruiter of "the other side", I can see how it works well.

I have something better : Distrust everything.

But yeah, it works. There were four confirmed French citizens involved into the attacks.