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I wanna have a side project of reviving my old CSM army love but with all the nerfs and general bad rap they get what reccomendations do you guys have for models you would think are strong/ a threat to other armies.
EDIT: Helturkeys noted.

Helturkey, duh...

Ok that was the one I already knew xD

Havocs with Autocannons. While they aren't Gravcannons, they're still pretty good to have as a support to any CSM army while still being unique.

'Enhanced Marines' (Fabius Bile) - While I do like these guys, the only reason that they're not great is because you can now only have 1 unit of them, making them an easy target. Fearless, and S5 (S10 Powerfists), with the options for the different marks to change it up without really changing the list. They're just fun.

I built the army back when it was legal to do multiple units, and converted them as such, so I abuse it a bit, but never without my opponents permission first, and it's still not as bad as some of the legal combos out there. I have a group of guys that occasionally let me run them all as 'Enhanced Marines' as an 'Unbound' list.

Nurgle Spawn and Sorcerers on bikes are very good.

As Akar said, Autocannon havoks are pretty good. Nothing wrong with a bunch of S7 AP4 shots. Great way to strip hullpoints off any transports.

Maulerfiends - These guys are actually pretty good simply because they are fast and are great for taking down single models in combat as long as they arnt high strength wrecking machines. The only thing to remember though is that you need to field two of them. One will just die too quickly, two give you a chance to do what you need to do.

Noise Marines. The Blastmaster is awesome and so is the doom siren. I know a lot of people poo poo Lucius the Eternal as not being that good, but take him and a noise champion in a rhino who also has a doom siren and go roast yourself some infantry. Works great against jinking bikers. The only problem is that this unit only works once per opponent, simply because they will focus fire it to death on the second game.

Ohh yeah, Helturkeys, but It would appear that you know that already

To add to what has already been said:

Chaos Spawn. They're not Canoptek Wraiths, but they're just as fast. Played well, they are something your opponent will have to deal with unless they want to be tarpitted or killed.

Flying Daemon Princes. Expensive? Yes. Effective? You better believe they are.

Flying Daemon Princes, Nurgle Bikers, Maulerfiends, Heldrakes.
I would love Chosen if they didn't cost so many points. Cypher with 3 units of infiltrating Chosen and Huron infiltrating d3 more units can catch an opponent off guard... At least, the first time you do it... I find that chaos has a bunch of stuff that can work once, but the same opponent won't fall for it again.

Havoks with autocannons. Give them MoT and a skyshield, along with a few other units of the same, and they aren't bad.

Single mutilators do okay. Buy no more than 3.

Obliterators, either dropped or deployed normally.

Plague marines in rhinos.

2 Min squads of cultists.

Bikes, marked for nurgle, are probably the best unit in the dex.

Heldrake is probably the best tank in the dex.

Raptors would be the best unit if bikes weren't in there. They are slightly cheaper than the bikes but weaker in most ways.

Sorcerors, usually on a bike.

Lord, usually on a bike, to unlock plague marine troops.

Nurgle marked DP w/BM.

Nurgle spawn


Units to avoid;
Fiends. Maulerfiends aren't awful but still tend to die too quickly for their points.

Landraiders. We have the worst landraider in the game.

Beserkers. They need a landraider, and ours is pretty bad.

1k Sons. Awful. Up there for worst unit in the game.

Possessed. Too random, needs a raider.

Warp Talons. Way overpriced.

Chosen. Way too overpriced and fragile for their points.

Mauler fiends are actually quite nicely priced. They are just over the cost of a Venerable dreadnaught and arguably better at CC than one.

They are overpriced in the sense that anything that requires it killing the unit is usually not worth as much as it (and it dies next turn) or its worth as much as the fiend or more and likely can't beat it in time (and it dies next turn). Personally I would rather use the forcefield for the same job, which also isn't a great choice but not god awful

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Mauler fiends are actually quite nicely priced. They are just over the cost of a Venerable dreadnaught and arguably better at CC than one.

While what you said is technically true, it doesn't work out to mauler fiends being good.

1) Dreadnoughts are not actually good in CC, and aren't used there. Dreadnoughts have been, since 5th, mobile gun platforms. So beating what is really a shooty unit in CC isn't anything special.
2) Dreadnoughts can be podded in, making them faster than maulerfiends in many ways.
3) The type of shooting that destroys fiends has gotten more common, while the type of shooting they are strong against is disappearing.
4) Their save being invulnerable is a bit of a handicap. With all their movement rules, FnP would have given them a bigger boost so you could claim a cover save as well. If they had 5+ FnP I would take them, since I could put a 4/5++ cover save and a 5+ FnP and IWND.
5) The types of targets that maulerfiends do well against have been disappearing. Tanks aren't commonly seen, and MCs tend to be faster than them (Flyrants, Riptides), tougher than them (Riptides, DreadKnights), or GMCs. Many deathstars aren't impressed by the damage this thing puts out.
6) It's not hard to kill with shooting. If it had 1-2 extra HPs, or 1 additional front/side armor, IWND would come up more. Or if it was cheaper, so I could put 2-3 on the board along with razorbacks (if we could take them, rhinos with havoks and bolters do ok) to create a mobile tank army.
7) Dreadnoughts have been bad for a while, except for a brief time where Rifleman dreads and Psyriflemen were good. Saying they are better than dreadnoughts isn't saying much.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Mauler fiends are actually quite nicely priced. They are just over the cost of a Venerable dreadnaught and arguably better at CC than one.

Now that Dreads are 4 attacks base, I'm gonna have to argue with that. Maulerfiends are quicker on their feet, but Drop Pods...

Autocannon havocs

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Mauler fiends are actually quite nicely priced. They are just over the cost of a Venerable dreadnaught and arguably better at CC than one.

Now that Dreads are 4 attacks base, I'm gonna have to argue with that. Maulerfiends are quicker on their feet, but Drop Pods...

No... Codex SM dreads have 4 attacks... there are a host of other books out there that do not have 4 attack dreadnaughts.

Also, its not really fair to compare units in codex CSM to units in codex SM, simply because nothing will look good. SM got their dial turned up to 11, CSM are still living in two previous editions. Its just the way it is.

I actually think there are a lot of good things in the codex. Its just you have to play a different game then those codexs that have had their 7th edition release.

Obliterators and daemon princes.

A better question to ask would be, "What do CSM have at their disposal which can make them semi competitive at best, and how can they become better?"

To which the answer lies in Forgeworld. Currently, CSM or rather Chaos as a faction, quite literally rely on Forgeworld in fixing their lackluster army and pitiful units. Their selection of units makes Chaos decent, however spending the extra $250+ on Forgeworld books alone make CSM unfavorable as an army in any competitive scene.

My personal favorite models, are

Maulerfiends - they're fast, can kill fortifications and heavy transports. However if I were to make them better, I'd boost their WS to 4, Initiative to 4 and let them come in squadrons of 1-3.

Chaos Predator Tanks - FW had the right idea allowing us to take variants of this wonderful beauty. However cheap it may be, it still lacks army synergies. I'd allow them to take Obliterator Weapons using the same rules for Obliterators. SMs like their grav, we get Obliterator Weapons on anything that has Daemonic Possession. (Side note to Daemonic Possession, remove that absolute gimp nonsense that paying 20 points for this upgrade has to come with a downside. It's already absurd. Remove the penalty to WS and BS)

Daemon Princes - they can be handy, but are over costed by nearly 60 points. Nothing costing 350+ points should ever have a chance to be removed from the board before it can actually engaging in CC. When you compare the DP to things like WKs its more expensive, less durable and its easily dispatched. Give them EW and make them 110points base. 15 points for PA and 20points for Wings. Their Daemonic alignment costs should be free.

Chaos Land Raiders - this transport is literally the only wariabt that makes our CC infantry usable. Yet it lacks the same type of oompf their loyalist counterparts have via POTMS. IMO make the Chaos Variants also have POTMS renamed, to something like, Power of the Dark Gods, or simply give chaos vehicles independent fire due to having been possessed by insatiable killing entities.

Possessed - as fun looking and generally OK at their job as they are, GW has tried on several occasions to force them down our thoughts as "Good" and "Acceptable" choices as melee "Go-toos" unfortunately they failed in all but 1 way, and that was their Crimson Slaughter addition to them moving like beasts. Baseline they should be moving like Beasts. Str5 T5 and allow the whole squad to roll on the Revised Chaos Boon Table (I'll get into that later after) give them back rending, and make their weapons AP3 again.

RlChaos Boon Table (Revised) - currently the one big gripe we all agree on is that the Chaos Boon Table is completely useless and makes anyone playing CSM hate playing their army. I would make it less inflated, less useless and allow the the player to choose which Boon he wanted. Reasons being that you aren't randomizing your army anymore, nothing makes an army less enjoyable than paying points for random upgrades that royally screwed your army over.

Revised Chaos Boon Table

+1 Str
+1 Toughness
+1 initiative
+1 WS
+1 BS
*+1 Wound
Fearless
Rending
Fleet
*Eternal Warrior

* Is available to champions and HQs only. Finally an HQ sorc or lord that can gain EW if you require it.

Nurgle Biker Lords
Belakor
Khorne Juggernaut Lords
Nurgle Flying Mace Prince (untested personally)
Hell Drake
Nurgle Obliterators
Unmarked Biker Sorcerer
Nurgle Chaos Spawn
Plague Marines
Mauler Fiend (untested personally)
Havoc Autocannons (again untested personally)

Mayyyybe
Noise Marines squad with 2 Blastmasters and Icon of Excess. It was good but so expensive.

-FW Stuff-
Plague Hulk (untested but Soul Grindery enough to win my vote)
Deimos Laser Destroyer
Fire-Raptor Gunship (untested but on paper it looks great)

I can honestly say that I much prefer FW Hellblades and their bomber varients then I do for the Helldrakes. Granted they are flimsier, but generally speaking put out a lot more firepower and look better on the table for any legion or warband

Plague marines are fantastic infantry

GAdvance wrote:
Plague marines are fantastic infantry

There biggest problem is over 250 points for 7 in a Rhino with PF and 2x PG

Son of aY3ti wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Plague marines are fantastic infantry

There biggest problem is over 250 points for 7 in a Rhino with PF and 2x PG

its 2015 whos still running plasma guns? meltas on the infantry that can survive getting close if their armor gets popped.

Plasma Guns are better to be fair. 4 S7 shots is better than 2 S8, even counting the Melta rule. Melta and AT as a whole can be found elsewhere.

Also why bother running 7? Just run 5-6 and then a Combi on the Champion.

Spawn, spawn and more spawn.