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I think making Dark Eldar vehicles specifically the raider a flyer would be an easy fix to a lot of the problems encountered by DE players. Edit: Make them flyers which can start on the table in hover mode.

Currently Raiders rely heavily on their cover saves which many armies can get through easily with ignore cover or even just glance to pieces with high volume small arms fire. I propose making raiders flyers. It would better emphasis their ultra high mobility and grace and also their ability to swoop in, out of the skies and drop off troops in the coordinated raids DE are known for.

I get that it's currently a skimmer because it's supposed to skim but it could really benefit from the speed and 'hard to hit' rule of a flyer and in the fluff they behave more like flyers than skimmers.

It wouldn't be over powered because they only have one of a choice of 2 weapons on the whole vehicle and neither choice are particularly amazing, and the embarked units would only be able to fire snapshots. Once it goes into hover mode it would return to being the raider we have today however with this change it would have actually been able to do the job its designed to do by this time. It will eventually have to go into hover mode as it doesn't have the fire power alone to win a battle and must go into hover mode to allow its troops to shoot normally and do the damage required.

What do you think? Could this be a great way to make Dark Eldar good? I get it may take more than this but i feel it would definitely be a fluffy and effective step in the right direction.

Thanks

The big problem is that right now flyers are forced to be in reserve unless you take the skyshield landing pad. So you'd be forced to take things on foot/venoms to not lose turn 1.

It may be better just to make enemy units attacking raiders WS1/BS1 when they turboboost. Gives them a bit more survivability against RoF guns, while not completely neutering blast/template weapons.

 Grimskul wrote:
The big problem is that right now flyers are forced to be in reserve unless you take the skyshield landing pad. So you'd be forced to take things on foot/venoms to not lose turn 1.

It may be better just to make enemy units attacking raiders WS1/BS1 when they turboboost. Gives them a bit more survivability against RoF guns, while not completely neutering blast/template weapons.

Truthfully?

The biggest problem is that "Jink Saves" are Cover Saves. Some armies(notably Tau) are going to be able to do horrific things to armies which rely on Jink to ensure their units can reach where they need to.

Remove the "Cover" component, make Jink Saves their own thing and make dedicated Anti-Aircraft units/weapons able to choose between "Skyfire" and "Ground Targets" modes, where Skyfire can reduce a Jink Save by a point for each successful Wound/Penetrating Hit from that AA unit/weapon.

So a Raider chooses to Jink when a Hydra Flak Tank fires at it with the "Skyfire" mode active. The Raider has a 4+ Jink save(give them some kind of vehicle upgrade that can make it higher) against the Hydra Autocannons.
The Hydra hits and successfully penetrates the Raider. In addition to whatever it rolls on the vehicle damage table? The Raider is now at a 5+ Jink Save against the remaining shots from that Hydra Flak Tank.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
The big problem is that right now flyers are forced to be in reserve unless you take the skyshield landing pad. So you'd be forced to take things on foot/venoms to not lose turn 1.

It may be better just to make enemy units attacking raiders WS1/BS1 when they turboboost. Gives them a bit more survivability against RoF guns, while not completely neutering blast/template weapons.

Truthfully?

The biggest problem is that "Jink Saves" are Cover Saves. Some armies(notably Tau) are going to be able to do horrific things to armies which rely on Jink to ensure their units can reach where they need to.

Remove the "Cover" component, make Jink Saves their own thing and make dedicated Anti-Aircraft units/weapons able to choose between "Skyfire" and "Ground Targets" modes, where Skyfire can reduce a Jink Save by a point for each successful Wound/Penetrating Hit from that AA unit/weapon.

So a Raider chooses to Jink when a Hydra Flak Tank fires at it with the "Skyfire" mode active. The Raider has a 4+ Jink save(give them some kind of vehicle upgrade that can make it higher) against the Hydra Autocannons.
The Hydra hits and successfully penetrates the Raider. In addition to whatever it rolls on the vehicle damage table? The Raider is now at a 5+ Jink Save against the remaining shots from that Hydra Flak Tank.

That's certainly a better idea than mine. I guess the night shields would be changed from giving stealth to giving a +1 to their jink save. The only problem I see is the jink saves that bikes get, particularly ravenwing. Would (or should) skilled rider still give them a 3+ jink save? The only good thing is that shrouded/stealth wouldn't stack with it so Ravenwing bikers, albeit strong, wouldn't have a 2+ re-rollable jink.

Ehhhh.

When we're not talking about Jetbikes it gets kinda weird. I'd change Skilled Rider to a table that is based upon the kind of vehicle.

Jetbikes get a bonus to their Jink Saves while basic Bikers get a boost to their Armor saves and lose the ability to Jink.

That latter part might sound weird, but there's only so much that a land based vehicle can do versus anti-grav which can move in 3 dimensions.

I would additionally add Jetbikes to the list of things that Skyfire affects. I really don't understand how Skimmers are on that list but Jetbikes aren't.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Ehhhh.

When we're not talking about Jetbikes it gets kinda weird. I'd change Skilled Rider to a table that is based upon the kind of vehicle.

Jetbikes get a bonus to their Jink Saves while basic Bikers get a boost to their Armor saves and lose the ability to Jink.

That latter part might sound weird, but there's only so much that a land based vehicle can do versus anti-grav which can move in 3 dimensions.

I would additionally add Jetbikes to the list of things that Skyfire affects. I really don't understand how Skimmers are on that list but Jetbikes aren't.

You can swerve on a bike. Swerving = Jinking

Swerving doesn't necessarily mean that a shot will miss you though, just that it might strike on a different part of the bike.

Realistically? Ground mounted bikes never should have been given Jink. They can claim Cover a lot easier than basically anything outside of basic infantry.

Plus bikes are fast. Unless you are trained or hes driving right at you, you wont hit him

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Plus bikes are fast. Unless you are trained or hes driving right at you, you wont hit him

This is something that kinda got touched on in "Double Eagle" when one of the characters is explaining how to use a weapon designed for cutting down infantry to bring down a Hell Talon.

Something like a Reaver Jetbike or a Raider or a Ravager or a Venom? They can, effectively, move within 3 dimensions. They can move up and down, side to side, and forwards and in reverse.
This means that some kind of weapon that can put a lot of shots in the air or track/predict the target's movement(aka: Skyfire) becomes highly effective.

An Ork Biker or a Space Marine Biker? They can move within two dimensions, unless you have an abundance of ramps or things of that nature that they can utilize to get "jumps" going on. They can move side to side and forwards and reverse. This means that you do not necessarily need specialized tools/training to counteract their potential movement.

By retaining Jink on Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, Skimmers, and Jetbikes it's a way to represent their ability to move in 3 dimensions and use their speed to generate an advantage that otherwise might not be present for a vehicle stuck on the ground.

By adding additional armor to a bike when it's moving at speed, it represents the biker being able to take the hit on their most protected "facing" or maneuvering their bike in such a manner that it negates the shot's power.

So to use the scenarios I suggested:
Raoul the Reaver Jetbiker is moving at full speed and claiming his Jink save against Guardsmen firing at him. Jink is a way to represent him moving in between shots not just by ducking or dodging, but actively going above or below the shots--or potentially even reversing his bike to throw off the aim of the Guardsmen!
Oscar the Ork Warbiker on the other hand is moving at full speed and claiming his bonus save. This is representing Oscar swerving his bike wildly between Lasgun bolts or maneuvering the bike to take shots to non-critical portions of the bike.

I know it seems unnecessarily complex at first, but it's potentially a big change to the way AA vehicles could be used.

The problem with changing jinks to not being cover saves is that most stuff that ignores cover would work against jinking whether they track the target like Smart Missile Systems or just saturate the area with so much fire it can't be avoided like a wyvern.

But discussing jinks is off topic.

I think making Raiders flyers which can start on the table in hover would be a massive improvement both from a gameplay and fluff perspective. DE are supposed to be the fastest faction out there after all and this would make that true.

You could apply this to a lot of DE's vehicles as a lot of them behave more like flyers in the fluff. For example you could make Reavers Coldstar esque FMCs They're supposed to be some of the fastest, most skilled bikers in the game after all.

Note that these changes to flyers would not make them OP as the potential units don't have the fire power to be OP, it would merely give them the speed to be the harassing, hit and run army dark eldar are who can attack from unexpected quarters.

Taffy17 wrote:
The problem with changing jinks to not being cover saves is that most stuff that ignores cover would work against jinking whether they track the target like Smart Missile Systems or just saturate the area with so much fire it can't be avoided like a wyvern.

That's not strictly true by any real stretch. Smart Missile Systems were originally intended to have their "Ignores Cover" via Markerlights. They've retained that for whatever reason.

But discussing jinks is off topic.

If you say so. I'm presenting alternatives to simply "Make X be a Flyer!".

I think making Raiders flyers which can start on the table in hover would be a massive improvement both from a gameplay and fluff perspective. DE are supposed to be the fastest faction out there after all and this would make that true.

You could apply this to a lot of DE's vehicles as a lot of them behave more like flyers in the fluff. For example you could make Reavers Coldstar esque FMCs They're supposed to be some of the fastest, most skilled bikers in the game after all.

Speaking from a fluff perspective? ANY Skimmer could be justified to have the ability to operate as a Flyer. Falcon/Fire Prism Grav-Tanks are able to go pretty high up and hide in the clouds, then come down firing. There was even a formation for it called "Cloudstrike".

Not strictly Dark Eldar.

Note that these changes to flyers would not make them OP as the potential units don't have the fire power to be OP, it would merely give them the speed to be the harassing, hit and run army dark eldar are who can attack from unexpected quarters.

Honestly, people need to recognize that the problem is not solely confined with Dark Eldar. It's a multipronged issue. I can think of two off the top of my head and I'm sure others can add to it.
One prong is the abundance of Ignores Cover weaponry or skills that grant Ignores Cover that has begun showing up basically mitigating the existence of "Jink" saves which the Dark Eldar vehicles rely upon.
One prong is the rather lackluster vehicle rules as they stand, where fishing for Penetrating Hits is actually worse than simply glancing something to death, meaning that a lightly armored vehicle is going to be a prime target for just being glanced to death.

All other skimmers have good protection though whether its AV12/13 or invulnerable saves.

I propose that making them a flyer would be the Dark Eldar's way to make their skimmers more survivable as they don't really have either of the above.

You'd naturally think Dark Eldar vehicles would be hard to hit and very fast, hence why i believe the flyer rules would be more appropriate for them

Taffy17 wrote:
All other skimmers have good protection though whether its AV12/13 or invulnerable saves.

I propose that making them a flyer would be the Dark Eldar's way to make their skimmers more survivable as they don't really have either of the above.

You'd naturally think Dark Eldar vehicles would be hard to hit and very fast, hence why i believe the flyer rules would be more appropriate for them

Or the other Skimmers(Devilfish, Hammerheads, Wave Serpents, Falcons, and Fire Prisms) that have the "Tank" special rule could be given the "Heavy" special rule, losing their ability to Jink and Dark Eldar vehicles gain a unique feature.

I think it would be easier to change one raider than change all Tau, Eldar and Necron skimmers.

Making it a flyer would mean it could move 18", fire normally, the embarked troops could still fire snap shots and it would be hard to hit. It gets rid of most of its flaws without it going crazy. Changing everything else would still mean the raider is still as tough as a paper bag.

Taffy17 wrote:
I think it would be easier to change one raider than change all Tau, Eldar and Necron skimmers.

"Any Skimmer with the Tank classification is a Heavy vehicle."

Making it a flyer would mean it could move 18", fire normally, the embarked troops could still fire snap shots and it would be hard to hit. It gets rid of most of its flaws without it going crazy. Changing everything else would still mean the raider is still as tough as a paper bag.

Making it a Flyer while not doing the same for any of the Tau skimmers or Eldar skimmers is a band-aid fix. You might as well make it a FMC for all the good that making a transport vehicle a Flyer would do.

I'd be wary of allowing DE to concentrate their entire army on any one part of the battlefield assaulting turn 2. That's a LOT of mobility, and the vast majority of enemies are going to struggle to hurt that man hard to hit transports before you're gutting them.

There's got to be another way.

Heavy classification also doesn't allow for more than 6" movement and doesn't allow for flat out.

Eldar vehicles are supposed to be as fast as dark eldar ones, the dark eldar vehicles are supposed to get people into the fight faster due to open topped.

A better fix than making them flyers would be a rule that allows the dark eldar to disembark after moving 12". Suddenly your ARMY is faster without your tanks being objectively faster than equivalent vehicles of the same type. Hell, use this...

"Raiding ship: models with this special rule that moved cruising speed may fire as if it had moved combat speed. Models embarked in transports with this special rule may disembark and fire normally if the transport has moved cruising speed."

Done.

Or just give Raiders/Ravagers the ability to take Flicker fields again?

I'd gladly take Flickerfields on those again, and on Razorwings/Voidravens, too (doubly so since Crimson Hunters have the mostly-equivalent Holo-Field as an option). That said, that wouldn't be enough. A good start, to be sure, but not enough.

I will, however, strongly second Lythrandire's suggestion.

If I were inclined to bolt on something else, I'd add these:
Scaling Nets (Option for Raider, Venom): When a transport with Scaling Nets that ends its move or Flat-Out move within 2" of a unit with the same faction that is not locked in combat and has not Gone To Ground, that unit may make an Initiative test. If it passes the test, then it may embark on the transport, provided it would normally be able to fit in that transport. On the following turn the unit thus embarked may disembark normally but may not charge and must fire Snap Shots.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Or just give Raiders/Ravagers the ability to take Flicker fields again?

This is tangential, but I believe that Flickerfields were removed from Raiders because a Raider suffers next to no ill effects from jinking, since almost all of its firepower is from its passengers.

Wait, Having the Tank trait on a skimmer means its a heavu vehicle?

Alcibiades wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Or just give Raiders/Ravagers the ability to take Flicker fields again?

This is tangential, but I believe that Flickerfields were removed from Raiders because a Raider suffers next to no ill effects from jinking, since almost all of its firepower is from its passengers.

Not sure what you mean - Flicker Fields give a 5+ invulnerable save against all but D weapons - Cover saves are ignored by a great deal of weapons especially in the later 7.5 Super Codexes, plus you can't take it in Clsoe combat.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Wait, Having the Tank trait on a skimmer means its a heavu vehicle?

No. I suggested that having the "Tank" trait on a Skimmer also mandates it be a Heavy vehicle.

Because most of the problematic Skimmers(Eldar Skimmers) have both Tank+Fast+Skimmer, along with a reasonably respectable AV.
By removing their ability to supplement that AV with Jink, it allows for Dark Eldar Skimmers to actually look a lot better or gain certain perks that the Eldar Grav-Tanks would not have.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Wait, Having the Tank trait on a skimmer means its a heavu vehicle?

No. I suggested that having the "Tank" trait on a Skimmer also mandates it be a Heavy vehicle.

Because most of the problematic Skimmers(Eldar Skimmers) have both Tank+Fast+Skimmer, along with a reasonably respectable AV.
By removing their ability to supplement that AV with Jink, it allows for Dark Eldar Skimmers to actually look a lot better or gain certain perks that the Eldar Grav-Tanks would not have.

Itd also nerf Tau tanks... I hate devilfish

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Wait, Having the Tank trait on a skimmer means its a heavu vehicle?

No. I suggested that having the "Tank" trait on a Skimmer also mandates it be a Heavy vehicle.

Because most of the problematic Skimmers(Eldar Skimmers) have both Tank+Fast+Skimmer, along with a reasonably respectable AV.
By removing their ability to supplement that AV with Jink, it allows for Dark Eldar Skimmers to actually look a lot better or gain certain perks that the Eldar Grav-Tanks would not have.

Itd also nerf Tau tanks... I hate devilfish

Do people still hate Devilfish? What year is this?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Wait, Having the Tank trait on a skimmer means its a heavu vehicle?

No. I suggested that having the "Tank" trait on a Skimmer also mandates it be a Heavy vehicle.

Because most of the problematic Skimmers(Eldar Skimmers) have both Tank+Fast+Skimmer, along with a reasonably respectable AV.
By removing their ability to supplement that AV with Jink, it allows for Dark Eldar Skimmers to actually look a lot better or gain certain perks that the Eldar Grav-Tanks would not have.

Itd also nerf Tau tanks... I hate devilfish

Do people still hate Devilfish? What year is this?

Probably the year where quite a few people play Ethereals as able to use their Invocations from the Devilfish, and just Jink/park the things in Cover?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Do people still hate Devilfish? What year is this?

3+ Jink on a AV12 vehicle is dumb no matter what year it is.

Not ye olde Falcon bad, but still unacceptable.

In fairness, here, remember that Tau, Eldar and Necrons aren't getting AV12/13 Jinking Skimmers for the 35 points that Space Marines pay for a Rhino. That sure as heck would be dumb.

What would also be dumb, however, is paying the price for a Devilfish (more than twice a Rhino, y'know), but being slower than a Rhino (no Combat Speed, no Flat Out) and having only marginally better survivability and firepower. Oh, and no Smoke Launchers either.

Ugh, people don't take heavier tanks because of all the single shot weapons that can explode them, they don't take single shot weapons because medium strength hullpoint removal is more efficient, they take skimmers to get cover from jinking, but skimmer vehicles are also disliked becasue of their fire power.

How is it that people NEVER take anything because reasons and it is garbage and somehow still play the game?

Also, I might ask this: what meta are y'all playing in that Wave Serpents, Falcons, etc are these unstoppable juggernauts of doom that can't die? If they're always Jinking they're not shooting worth a tinker's damn, and if they're shooting, at best they have a 4++ from some Farseer casting Forewarning on them (which doesn't come up that much, so a 5++ Holo-Field is more likely).

I rather enjoy running Eldar tanks, but in most games against Marines, Tau, Guard, etc, they end up as smoking ruin by Turn 3. Of course, I also see a fair number of Predators, Leman Russes, Annihilation Barges and those sorts, and my Falcons and Fire Prisms do some work against those.