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so how about if I ran a nemesis strike force with an allied ravenhawk assault group using star phantoms chapter tactics. I put some gk terminators and a regular dreadnought in the Raven. does this allow me to deep strike the Raven (due to ravenhawk formation) on turn 1 (due to a nemesis strike force unit being placed in deep strike reserve) and re-roll 1's on the reserve roll thanks to star phantoms?

AtomAnt wrote:
so how about if I ran a nemesis strike force with an allied ravenhawk assault group using star phantoms chapter tactics. I put some gk terminators and a regular dreadnought in the Raven. does this allow me to deep strike the Raven (due to ravenhawk formation) on turn 1 (due to a nemesis strike force unit being placed in deep strike reserve) and re-roll 1's on the reserve roll thanks to star phantoms?

Based on the information you provided, then yes. Assuming the info is accurate, the rules for Combined Reserved Units would lend itself to such a combo.

SJ

No, this is not allowed. The Nemesis strike force allows the units within the detachment to roll for reserve turn 1.

If the terminators come in as passengers on the stormraven, the roll to enter play is for the stormraven, for which you have no permission to roll on turn 1 as it is not part of the Nemesis strike force.

Star phantom chapter tactics rules from the free FW download Orbital Wave Attack: Any unit in the detachment arriving via Deep Strike may re-roll any Reserve roll of 1 if its controlling player wishes

GK, nemisis strike force:


Raven guard assault group formation ( This includes the raven transprort)
Vertical insertion allows the stormraven to deep strike but it must then hover the turn it arrives.

Now you have the following things
Raven transport with deepstrike + re roll 1's on reserve
GK termies that can roll for reserves if they deep strike on turn 1
A GK dread with the same rule.

So what happens if the termies hop in the raven.
-> the raven is not in the nemesis strike force and does not get their rules. So It has to roll from turn 2. Allied transports do not gain special rules from the units they transport

It's the same reason why you can't drop pod in "extra" pods full of purifiers. You end up having to place a model from the terminator unit on the board, which you cannot do. Jeffersonian will claim otherwise, yet csnnot show a rules basis for this that holds up to any scrutiny.

I make no claims, just pointing out the rules as written. Its a permissive rule set, permission is given, no specific restriction is noted to override the permission. Its your opinion that it doesn't work; per the actual rules, it works.

SJ

AtomAnt wrote:
so how about if I ran a nemesis strike force with an allied ravenhawk assault group using star phantoms chapter tactics. I put some gk terminators and a regular dreadnought in the Raven. does this allow me to deep strike the Raven (due to ravenhawk formation) on turn 1 (due to a nemesis strike force unit being placed in deep strike reserve) and re-roll 1's on the reserve roll thanks to star phantoms?

I wish it were allowed that way, the way the rules are written for the Nemesis Strike Force, is that units from the detachment(NSF) get to arrive on turn 1. Units inside vehicles don't allow vehicles to gain powers, otherwise there's be a bunch of GK landraiders running around with sanctuary. The way your RAW are done in the turn sequence are as follows.

Start of turn checks the reserves for Nemesis strike force. Since the termies are inside the ravenhawk they cannot deep strike which nulls their ability to come in on turn one. I know it sucks but it's a way to stop a combo of powers from breaking the game more then it already is. Most detachments say units in this detachment gain rule x. Since the Ravenhawk assault group doesn't belong to the nemesis strike force it would never gain the rules associated with units gain effects.

Nemesor Blackwing wrote:

Spoiler:

AtomAnt wrote:
so how about if I ran a nemesis strike force with an allied ravenhawk assault group using star phantoms chapter tactics. I put some gk terminators and a regular dreadnought in the Raven. does this allow me to deep strike the Raven (due to ravenhawk formation) on turn 1 (due to a nemesis strike force unit being placed in deep strike reserve) and re-roll 1's on the reserve roll thanks to star phantoms?

I wish it were allowed that way, the way the rules are written for the Nemesis Strike Force, is that units from the detachment(NSF) get to arrive on turn 1. Units inside vehicles don't allow vehicles to gain powers, otherwise there's be a bunch of GK landraiders running around with sanctuary. The way your RAW are done in the turn sequence are as follows.

Start of turn checks the reserves for Nemesis strike force. Since the termies are inside the ravenhawk they cannot deep strike which nulls their ability to come in on turn one. I know it sucks but it's a way to stop a combo of powers from breaking the game more then it already is. Most detachments say units in this detachment gain rule x. Since the Ravenhawk assault group doesn't belong to the nemesis strike force it would never gain the rules associated with units gain effects.

Please mark your posts as HYWPI, rather than implying your statements are correct. Per RAW:

“Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

I bolded the part you are ignoring. One roll, they all arrive to together. That's RAW.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Nemesor Blackwing wrote:

Spoiler:

AtomAnt wrote:
so how about if I ran a nemesis strike force with an allied ravenhawk assault group using star phantoms chapter tactics. I put some gk terminators and a regular dreadnought in the Raven. does this allow me to deep strike the Raven (due to ravenhawk formation) on turn 1 (due to a nemesis strike force unit being placed in deep strike reserve) and re-roll 1's on the reserve roll thanks to star phantoms?

I wish it were allowed that way, the way the rules are written for the Nemesis Strike Force, is that units from the detachment(NSF) get to arrive on turn 1. Units inside vehicles don't allow vehicles to gain powers, otherwise there's be a bunch of GK landraiders running around with sanctuary. The way your RAW are done in the turn sequence are as follows.

Start of turn checks the reserves for Nemesis strike force. Since the termies are inside the ravenhawk they cannot deep strike which nulls their ability to come in on turn one. I know it sucks but it's a way to stop a combo of powers from breaking the game more then it already is. Most detachments say units in this detachment gain rule x. Since the Ravenhawk assault group doesn't belong to the nemesis strike force it would never gain the rules associated with units gain effects.

Please mark your posts as HYWPI, rather than implying your statements are correct. Per RAW:

“Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

I bolded the part you are ignoring. One roll, they all arrive to together. That's RAW.

But, that is not what he was arguing. He wasn't arguing that they use separate rolls, but that the Embarked Terminator unit is not allowed to transfer their rules to their Transport, unless it is Dedicated and/or the rule allows for it.

But, that is not what he was arguing. He wasn't arguing that they use separate rolls, but that the Embarked Terminator unit is not allowed to transfer their rules to their Transport, unless it is Dedicated and/or the rule allows for it.

No such restriction exists. Each unit in the combined reserves unit has specific permission to do what it does, while the combined reserves unit rules grants permission to roll once for the entire group which must arrive together. Permissive rule set, permission is given. Stick Beliel in there, so it can arrive without scatter.

SJ

The rules state that they rolling together -> The termies are not left behind when the transport deep strikes.

But I'm having a hard time to find anything in that sentence that suggest transferring rules from troops carried to the transport.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

But, that is not what he was arguing. He wasn't arguing that they use separate rolls, but that the Embarked Terminator unit is not allowed to transfer their rules to their Transport, unless it is Dedicated and/or the rule allows for it.

No such restriction exists. Each unit in the combined reserves unit has specific permission to do what it does, while the combined reserves unit rules grants permission to roll once for the entire group which must arrive together. Permissive rule set, permission is given. Stick Beliel in there, so it can arrive without scatter.

SJ

Correct, permissive rule set. No permission is granted for a unit to transfer its Special Rules or benefits to the Transport it is Embarked on, with a couple of exceptions and the explicitly state that they do. So, to say that the Transport gains the benefits of the unit they carry is disingenuous at best, deliberately misleading at worst. The Combined Reserves rule does not grant this permission, so why do you assume that it does? You quoted that they roll together, but nothing in there says that they share all rules.

Keep in mind that actions performed by a Transport are not actions performed by the Embarked unit. Some things can affect them, but they all explicitly address them.

yeah I was under the impression that combined reserve rolls use either the transport or the unit rules based on the brb. for the same reason I thought purifiers in a drop pod worked. but I can see the argument against it. i guess I'll just run it past my local group.

I fyou make a roll for the Embarked Unit, you then have to place a model from the Unit that is arriving on the board.

That would be the terminator unit. We know this as you just rolled for the terminator unit turn 1 - no other unit in the combined unit can turn up turn 1

But you cannot place a terminator model on the battlefield, as that would mean the unit is no longer embarked, and you have no permissoin to disembark yet. (or even a method to follow should you find permission)

So, you cannot roll for the terminator. As you're not rolling for the terminator, you forgo permission to turn up turn 1

RAW this is correct, however Jeffersonians opinion is otherwise. As noted, and proven, their argument withstands little scrutiny, and relies upon reading a single rule and declaring that to be sufficient, ignoring all rules to the contrary.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Please mark your posts as HYWPI, rather than implying your statements are correct. Per RAW:

“Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

I bolded the part you are ignoring. One roll, they all arrive to together. That's RAW.

SJ

That rule only gives you permission to roll one dice for multiple units. However, it still does not give you permission to carry over the Rites of teleportation special rule to the Stormraven.
You are given permission to roll for multiple units at once, but they are not treated as a single unit, that is a significant difference. You still have no permission to roll for the stormraven, hence you cannot roll for it.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

But, that is not what he was arguing. He wasn't arguing that they use separate rolls, but that the Embarked Terminator unit is not allowed to transfer their rules to their Transport, unless it is Dedicated and/or the rule allows for it.

No such restriction exists. Each unit in the combined reserves unit has specific permission to do what it does, while the combined reserves unit rules grants permission to roll once for the entire group which must arrive together. Permissive rule set, permission is given. Stick Beliel in there, so it can arrive without scatter.

SJ

Again, you are given permission to roll for the unit as a whole. You are not given permission to do so on turn one. Only the terminators get this permission. Rolling on turn one would be "rolling for part of the group".

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I fyou make a roll for the Embarked Unit, you then have to place a model from the Unit that is arriving on the board.

That would be the terminator unit. We know this as you just rolled for the terminator unit turn 1 - no other unit in the combined unit can turn up turn 1

But you cannot place a terminator model on the battlefield, as that would mean the unit is no longer embarked, and you have no permissoin to disembark yet. (or even a method to follow should you find permission)

So, you cannot roll for the terminator. As you're not rolling for the terminator, you forgo permission to turn up turn 1

RAW this is correct, however Jeffersonians opinion is otherwise. As noted, and proven, their argument withstands little scrutiny, and relies upon reading a single rule and declaring that to be sufficient, ignoring all rules to the contrary.

You are making up rules again, Nos. Please cite a rule that tells us which model in a Combined Unit rolls to arrive, which model is placed first, and which rule denies formation benefits. Since I happen to know you won't cite anything, just bluster, I'll point out that the model placed is a marker for the unit, not a specific model from a specific unit. The CRU rules only modifes the requirement for each unit to roll and arrive on its own to a single die roll and everything arrives together. It is your assumption that the "rolling unit" places the marker model. Per the Deep Striking Transport rules, the transport is always placed as the marker, or did you forget that?

SJ


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DaPino, please cite where permission is denied for a qualifying NSF unit deep striking from reserves is denied their ability to roll to arrive started turn 1.

SJ

Marker for "the" unit. So if you place a terminator model, that's the terminator units marker.

Not bluster, just wondering when you will address all the rules concerned, but every thread this comes up you cite your opinion as if it bears any relation to the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Marker for "the" unit. So if you place a terminator model, that's the terminator units marker.

Not bluster, just wondering when you will address all the rules concerned, but every thread this comes up you cite your opinion as if it bears any relation to the rules.

Odd that you say this, when I'm the one that cites and posts rules, while you're the one that only ever posts opinion as if it's fact. Also, avoiding my point does not support your position.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

You are making up rules again, Nos. Please cite a rule that tells us which model in a Combined Unit rolls to arrive, which model is placed first, and which rule denies formation benefits. Since I happen to know you won't cite anything, just bluster, I'll point out that the model placed is a marker for the unit, not a specific model from a specific unit. The CRU rules only modifes the requirement for each unit to roll and arrive on its own to a single die roll and everything arrives together. It is your assumption that the "rolling unit" places the marker model. Per the Deep Striking Transport rules, the transport is always placed as the marker, or did you forget that?

SJ

Automatically Appended Next Post:
DaPino, please cite where permission is denied for a qualifying NSF unit deep striking from reserves is denied their ability to roll to arrive started turn 1.

SJ

Please show where an Embarked units rules affect their Transport, or at least if NSF specifies it for any Transport. While Embarked a unit may Disembark or shoot out Fire Points as actions. A unit with Deep Strike cannot cause even their Dedicated Transport to Deep Strike, the Transport must have it on their own. If the Transport has it, the Embarked unit does not need it, Dedicated or not.

All the CRU rule does is make sure the Transport doesn't leave its Embarked unit behind. It does not allow for Reserves rules to confer between them.

You need to reread the Transport rules if you think the Transport does not confer Deep Strike to it's passengers. Here, leg me show you:

Deep Strike and Transports
Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.

Transports confer Deep Strike on its passengers per the underlined portion. How else does a Drop Pod transport its non-Deep Striking passengers?

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows ...

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Battle Brothers
Units from the same army that are Battle Brothers treat each other as ‘friendly units’ for all rules purposes. This means, for example, that units:
• Can embark on each other’s Transport vehicles.

Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.

Please, by all means, post a clear agrument to refute the above cited rules.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You need to reread the Transport rules if you think the Transport does not confer Deep Strike to it's passengers.

Please, by all means, post a clear agrument to refute the above cited rules.

SJ

Please, point out where I stated that Deep Strike does not confer to Embarked units?

All I said is the Embarked unit does not need to have the rule.

However, in all that you quoted, did you see the opposite? Did you see where the Embarked unit's special rules confer to their Transport? Aside from bubble fields, the only rules that do confer from Embarked to Transport are rules like Infiltrate and Scout where they explicitly state it confers the benefit to their Transport. Both of those even require them to be Dedicated to the Embarked unit.

Sure, there's special stuff like the Webway Portal which doesn't require the Transport to be Dedicated, but it is still explicit permission. Where is the NSF rule quote to support this?

So, going by all this and using Deep Strike & Transports as precedence, while you roll for both Transport and Embarked when rolling for Reserves, it is the Transport's rules that you follow until the unit Disembarks.

SJ makes a lot of sense.
1. units placed inside a deep striking transport have get to deep strike along.
2. that unit and transport is then placed in deep strike reserved.
3. per combined reserve rolls, you can roll for and / or units, in this case we are using the OR for the unit inside.
4. since the nsf unit has been placed in deep strike reserve(requirement of rites of teleportation), it can roll on turn 1.

seems legitimate to me.

AtomAnt wrote:
SJ makes a lot of sense.
1. units placed inside a deep striking transport have get to deep strike along.
2. that unit and transport is then placed in deep strike reserved.
3. per combined reserve rolls, you can roll for and / or units, in this case we are using the OR for the unit inside.
4. since the nsf unit has been placed in deep strike reserve(requirement of rites of teleportation), it can roll on turn 1.

seems legitimate to me.

You know, I actually completely missed the part "or" part. Seems to me it is legal.

Are we saying this only works because the SR is Deep Striking using its formation rules, since it doesn't normally get to arrive that way?
And the Terminators from the Nemesis Strike Formation can begin rolling for reserves on Turn 1 per their own Formation rule, but only if they Deep Strike?

HIWPI: You are rolling for the Storm Raven. The unit(s) inside are along for the ride. It's not a Dedicated Transport, so the Termies and the SR are not the same unit, at least not in the same way as joining an IC to that unit. They are not even of the same Formation, so I would not apply NSF rules to a Ravenhawk Formation.
To further my point, sure the SR is arriving by DS, but it's not teleporting, therefore no Rites of Teleportation. But that's more of a narrative thing, since the game doesn't differentiate between more than one type of Deep Strike (though IMO it should if only for this one instance).

 SkrawnyNob wrote:
Are we saying this only works because the SR is Deep Striking using its formation rules, since it doesn't normally get to arrive that way?
And the Terminators from the Nemesis Strike Formation can begin rolling for reserves on Turn 1 per their own Formation rule, but only if they Deep Strike?

HIWPI: You are rolling for the Storm Raven. The unit(s) inside are along for the ride. It's not a Dedicated Transport, so the Termies and the SR are not the same unit, at least not in the same way as joining an IC to that unit. They are not even of the same Formation, so I would not apply NSF rules to a Ravenhawk Formation.
To further my point, sure the SR is arriving by DS, but it's not teleporting, therefore no Rites of Teleportation. But that's more of a narrative thing, since the game doesn't differentiate between more than one type of Deep Strike (though IMO it should if only for this one instance).

No problem, you only need to prove your point. The BRB supports the NSF unit getting to roll on turn 1, brings the entire combined unit in at the same time with the transport placed first. Please cite rules that negate this.

SJ