Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Now I am not saying that for 10pts firewarriors should have a better BS, but in all fairness, firewarriors train almost exclusively in ranged combat and do it almost from birth so don't you think that they would have a better than 50/50 chance of hitting? Not only that, but once you get in to having a Shas'ui as a team leader or in a Crisis Suit, don't you think that after not only years of training but years of battlefield experience they would have better than a 50/50 chance?

Again, as far as game mechanics go, I think that BS3 is appropriate, but to have them have the same BS as a human conscript is kind of silly.

Sure they have years of training, but they are trained to depend on their technology to do everything for them. Hence the low BS.

I agree with the conscript bit though. They should be BS 2 fluffwise IMO.

I thought human conscripts (whiteshields) were BS2?

I was referring to IG in general as conscripts, not the actual 'Conscripts' rules/model type.

According to Andy Hoare:
"Though the Tau have keen eyesight that allows them to pick out detail, they lack the ability to focus as quickly as other races. This explains their 'average' level of Ballistic Skill."

I think I read somewhere that although Tau have excellent vision compared to humans in terms of seeing over long distances, their eyes take a long time to focus. Hence this affects their shooting in a battle where there's lots of confusion, and people don't stand still waiting to get shot! I can't remember where I read this though, so don't take it as gospel.

Personally, I think either the firewarrior is overcosted by about 2 points. For those 10 points he should be BS4 since they got hammered on CC ability. This is just another example of GW not understanding how to price units correctly.

As for fluff reasons, I think I also read the same thing that Born Again read, but your right for someone who trains entirely with a gun, they should be better shots.

Firewarriors are fine at 10 points a pop. Lets compare them with storm troopers.

Storm troopers have the edge in WS and init. However the Firewarriors have a 30 inch range str 5 basic gun. Compared with str3 for the stormies. if I could I would take firewarriors over storm troopers any day of the week.

Lets compare them to SOBs

Sobs have better WS, BS, LD, Init, SV, and access to faith, sure they only have a bolter over the pulse weapons, but same AP value. All for 1 extra point.

Lets look at Ork shoota boys at two points cheeper.

Better WS, Toughness, Init and attacks. Same LD, wounds, strength. Worse BS and armor save. Orks can have a better Init if they charge otherwise its the same. Orks also have an S4 gun. Orks can mob up or make mob checks.

Yeah right GW knows how to balance things.

UH... yeah very fluffy explanation

Don't forget the special weapons options for the Stormtroopers, Sisters, and Ork Shoota boyz

And the special gear their veteran sergeants can take.

However, though their BS is low, they have high strength weapons. The shots that do hit are going to cause more damage. Plus, they have an extra 6" range compared to most other infantry units, effectively giving them an extra turn to shoot stuff up before they hammered in CC. Couple this with the fact most fire warrior units have a couple of pulse carbines in them, either being carried or on drones. Now I'm not sure if carbines still still have the pinning ability as I haven't read the new codex, but assuming they do this could give the Tau an extra 2-3 turns of shooting. Personally I'd rather have more more turns to shoot than less shots with a better BS.

If, for fluff reasons (extensive training) you gave FCW BS4, then there would be lots of moaning if you didn't also give BS4 to the rest of the army, who are all supposed to be more experienced, elite troops. Then you've got Hammerheads with BS5 and so on.

FCW have an S5 weapon, which is equivalent to having BS4 / S4 / AP5 (Bolter) but has longer range and is more effective against light vehicles. They also have the advantage of markerlights. So I don't think they need BS4.

OTOH it's noticeable that top-level GT players (Torgoch and others) generally minimise their FCW squads because they are the least effective units in the army at that points value. There's nothing in the new Codex to really change this.

Let's see how the Honour Guard units are used.

this whole Fluff vs. Rules thing could go on for (p)ages.
Space Marines should spit acid (in Inquisitor they can), Orks should be stronger, Stormboyz should be fearless, Chaos Marines should be better than normal Marines in pretty much ANY way.
you know what I mean

IG, Guardians and Firewarriors are all well-trained, disiplined, professional soldiers. In 40k BS4 is reserved for the elite units, training constantly for war is the default setting.

Besides, I read in Vietnam US troops fired thousands of rounds per enemy kill, by the measure hitting 50% of the time is pretty darn good.

Kyoto has a point. If you fire 30 rounds from your assault rifle and hit a target at equivalent range (+/- 100 meters is a fair comparison to 30" IMHO) with 15 of those rounds, you will be on the top of every recruiting list in every branch of the military that has infantry. I was reading that even NYPD's best cops only have a mean accuracy of 59% using a 9mm handgun at 30 meters. I'd say BS 3 is pretty damned good in comparison, especially for your basic soldier.

CK

There is also the fact that point costs "should" be in the context of the rest of the army and what that unit has to contribute to that. I'm not saying that they do this with any modicum of consistency or even sanity, but it is something to keep in mind.

As for accuracy, I would expect alot of blind fire, covering fire, tripping-over-and-shoot-self-in-the-foot fire all contributes to such poor shots per kill numbers. But the fact that the weapons have stuff like Assault two or rapid fire doesn't mean they only actually fire two bullets. Some sort of burst fire, like a bolter or lasgun would have, would be covered by that. A shuriken catapult's assault 2 probably consists of about 50+ shurikens or so, while a rapid fired pulse rifle's 2 shots could consist of 4-5 actual blasts.

You also have to consider the "pucker factor" inherent in firing at an enemy.  I know I'd be a lot shakier/less reliable in actual combat than a combat veteran, even if we both had very similar scores on the target range.

cmon they have enuff shooty stuff plus strength 5 weapons so BS3 is fine, they cant be BS4 cos they aint as good as marines, now that would just be silly

Silly like proper capitalization and punctuation?

This is the fluff forum, not the rules forum.  It's all about background.

Silly as in they cant be better than marines can they??   after all they dont train as well as marines,  they are not as brave as marine you see where i am going with this,, they dont have enhanced vision or reflexes do they. so no they should not be better at shhoying than they already are,  it makes sence that they are on the same shooting level as guard,  cos guard are human versions of tau in the sence that they are the soldiers of humanity just as the fire warriors are the tau soldiers,  both guard and fire warriors train for war, its there only purpose in life.  so why should an alien soldier be better than a gaurd soldier, cos when you think about it they are for both races basic troops. 

Your advocation that all basic soldiers should be identical is quite disturbing. By doing so, the game would become bery one-dimensional, with everyone worrying about buying as many of their 'special' units as possible (with the troops as equals, only that particular army's unique units would make any real difference).

CK

not what i was saying, what i said was that the basic tau cannot be as good as a space marine as they are not that good, just cos kais managed to kill lots of marines in the game firewarrior does not meen thats a reality (i know this whole thing aint real) but surely tau are not that good. they have poor eyesight in terms of they cant focus quickly enough. if you make them bs 4 and they have strenght 5 guns than that along with all the other shooty stuff and there markerlights etc just makes them to good.

 beef wrote:
not what i was saying, what i said was that the basic tau cannot be as good as a space marine as they are not that good, just cos kais managed to kill lots of marines in the game firewarrior does not meen thats a reality (i know this whole thing aint real) but surely tau are not that good. they have poor eyesight in terms of they cant focus quickly enough. if you make them bs 4 and they have strenght 5 guns than that along with all the other shooty stuff and there markerlights etc just makes them to good.

I thought they had good eyesight... At distance but not up close?

Holy thread necromancy batman!

 Grimskul wrote:
Holy thread necromancy batman!

10 years is a bit much, yes.