I don't like 30k... And I don't know why.

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**Jimsolo**

I play Marines, and still don't like 30k.

"You know that faction who's detractors say spoils the game by making it too same-y? Let's make a game out of JUST that faction!"

Lol. That being said, I am primarily a Dark Eldar player, and there's never ever ever going to be any support for my main army in 30k, which definitely plays into my feelings on it. I also REALLY don't like most of the models that have come out for it.

Basically, as I write this I realize I have nothing positive to say about 30k. (Oooh, one thing! Volkite weapons being a thing made it easier for me to convert plasma gun retinue members for my Inquisition. But that's it.)

**OgreChubbs**

Jancoran wrote:
As one who doesn't play Marines, I basically am out of 30K. I know some people who are REALLY into the histoyr of the Chapters and so for them its probably hog heaven. I think this comes down to whether or not you've read a loto f the books and such. If you have't, 30K is just another game of 40K more or less, and from that viewpoint, boring. But if you're into the history? Its probably going to make the fanboi in you flip out.

If AoS taught us anything it is the fluff doesnt matter just make gak up as you go.

**BlaxicanX**

the_Armyman wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
The two of you realize that the OP's assertion, which Rowboat was addressing, is that the game is "all Marines all the time", yes? So with that being the OP's assertion, pointing out an inequality in the Xenos-Marine ratio literally does not contradict or even address Rowboat's argument at all. "Diversity" exists in the game- whether it's enough diversity or not is an entirely separately matter, but the fact remains that to say "there's only Marine factions in 40K!" is an objectively false statement.

Please don't make strawmans, it brings down the quality of the entire board.

So, just to be clear: you're pedantically correcting the assertion that it's not "100% marines" in 30K, it's technically "90% marines". To reiterate, I have adjusted my assertions accordingly. Thank you for the correction

Pointing out that you literally were arguing against an assertion that was never made nor implied is "pedantic"?

**ImAGeek**

Jimsolo wrote:
I play Marines, and still don't like 30k.

"You know that faction who's detractors say spoils the game by making it too same-y? Let's make a game out of JUST that faction!"

Lol. That being said, I am primarily a Dark Eldar player, and there's never ever ever going to be any support for my main army in 30k, which definitely plays into my feelings on it. I also REALLY don't like most of the models that have come out for it.

Basically, as I write this I realize I have nothing positive to say about 30k. (Oooh, one thing! Volkite weapons being a thing made it easier for me to convert plasma gun retinue members for my Inquisition. But that's it.)

It's not like they invented 30k now though, it's been a big part of the background for a long time. So 'let's make a game out of just the faction that makes the game samey' isn't really accurate, so much as 'let's make a game out of this huge part of our background who's novels have been selling incredibly well'.

**the_Armyman**

SirDonlad wrote:
@the_armyman - If my thallax were able to feel emotions they would be offended by your ignorance of them and their stats! Summing up the mechanicum to one being 'one list' is contrite twaddle; my taghmata can drown your army in blobs of tech-thralls which respawn on a 5+ when destroyed, i can spam monstorus creatures as scoring troops using legio cybernetica and i can field an army of tanks which score in your DZ and become obsec in malestrom missions as the Ordo Reductor
You obviously haven't played 30k - i've got all the books and the diversity is boggling!

the similarity of stats between marines just makes you realize how potent the USR's really are - not much gets 'fearless' so the 'stubborn' rule becomes invaluable.

Marines play very differently since there is no 'and they shall know no fear' rule - they may take 25% casualties in a phase and just run off!
And If you best them in combat you can sweeping advance them!
Legion marines are nothing like 'chapter' marines and the change in flavour between them is enough to completely change the strategy you use - my mate plays emperors children and his guys move an extra d3 when assaulting and can always regroup regardless of casualties. The effect of that is his guys get to combat at much greater range than other marines and his 2 man remnants of a squad can still lock a much larger squad in combat. That changes how you play!

I'm not willing to dedicate the time nessecary to show you the extent of the differences between each list, but i'm sure that you'd regard 'dark eldar', 'kraftworld eldar' and 'eldar corsairs' as 'seperate armies' - the difference between legion factions is very much like that.

I had a thought - maybe you're just not cut out for 30k?
If you aren't 'getting' the differences then maybe 40k is all you need.

Mechanicum is my creed and the Ordo Reductor is my faction - The bringers of Blessed Ruin.

Have you not read my posts? I've made the point that it's 18 different marine armies. But, they're still mostly WS4, BS4, T4, S4, I4, 3+Sv analogs. All of them.

Not that you're biased or anything, right? The guy with the Ordo Reductor avatar and creates Ordo Reductor threads. I have read the first 4 books of the HH heresy, and saying the three different Mechanicum lists are completely unique is being generous. I can take an IG Armored Company list from IA1 or I can run from the IG codex two Tank Commanders, two squads of Vets in Chimeras, and the rest of my list as LR Squadrons. There's not a whole lot of mechanical difference between the two lists. Your example of Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar is a terrible example, and not at all what I would consider identical armies in form or function.

But I'm sure you'll disagree and the thread will be dragged on trying to explain the nuances of list building in 30K, rather than just admitting that army diversity in 30K is pretty narrow. Or maybe you'll stick to your word and NOT take the time to explain. TBH, that would be awesome

**War Kitten**

To be honest, I'm not sure to what to think of 30k. Some of the novels are just awesome and when I read them I want to start a 30k army, then I realize it'd just be basically building an army like my Ultramarines, just with different looking armor and "chapter" tactics. I would gladly take some 30k units in my 40k Space Marines (thank you Imperial Armour!), but I think I would rather go start Dark Eldar and just throw some 30k stuff in my Marines rather than start a 30k army. That's just me though.

**master of ordinance**

What I have to say as already been largely said but I shall say it anyway:
30K is bland. It is boring. Unless you have a massive one for Marines you might as well not bother as thusfar we have:
flavour of Marines #1
flavour of marines #2
flavour of marines #3
flavour of marines #4
flavour of marines #5
flavour of marines #6
flavour of marines #7
flavour of marines #8
flavour of marines #9
flavour of marines #10
flavour of marines #11
flavour of marines #12
flavour of marines #13
flavour of marines #14
flavour of marines #15
flavour of marines #16
flavour of marines #17
flavour of marines #18
Mechanicum #1
Slightly different mechanicum #2
Not quite the same mechanicum #3
Imperial Guard whom have been slightly buffed but still get gakked on by everyone else

So, out of 22 factions - allowing for the pedantic insisting that there are notable differences betwixt the three Mechaincum flavours but ignoring Knights and Titans as thye do not really count (for very obvious reasons) - there are a grand total of four non Marine factions.
I rest my case.

**chaos0xomega**

If you cannot fathom the huge effects on gameplay that a subtle difference in rules has, then please stay in the kiddie pool of 40k and let the adults enjoy 30k. I know you might have difficulty understanding it, but you dont actually need hugely different factions to have hige differences in gameplay. Hell, most wargames have pretty much identical statlines across factions, like flames of war...

**Martel732**

chaos0xomega wrote:
If you cannot fathom the huge effects on gameplay that a subtle difference in rules has, then please stay in the kiddie pool of 40k and let the adults enjoy 30k. I know you might have difficulty understanding it, but you dont actually need hugely different factions to have hige differences in gameplay. Hell, most wargames have pretty much identical statlines across factions, like flames of war...

Flames of War also has jitterbug Tiger tanks. No, thanks.

**SirDonlad**

the_Armyman wrote:
Your example of Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar is a terrible example, and not at all what I would consider identical armies in form or function.

Thats exactly my point - they all have "broadly the same stats" but don't play anything like each other.

It's like Elysians, DKoK, and astra militarum - they're all imperial guard, yet are very different armies.
Even if you're playing marines vs marines; by the time you include weapons, wargear and special rules the statlines have changed.

Hey, master of ordinance, you're missing out the cults/militia lists!

edit: and the daemon lists!

**Matt.Kingsley**

And the Knights

Also, Solar Auxila don't get

on; you just don't see them often because 100pts of your basic troops costs 70 pounds.

**Haldir**

What are the big differences in rules?

**master of ordinance**

Demons? Wait, there are demons in 30K? News to me.

I dont really count knights as they do not really qualify as an army but more as a massive and, sadly, technically legal dick move.

**the_Armyman**

chaos0xomega wrote:
If you cannot fathom the huge effects on gameplay that a subtle difference in rules has, then please stay in the kiddie pool of 40k and let the adults enjoy 30k. I know you might have difficulty understanding it, but you dont actually need hugely different factions to have hige differences in gameplay. Hell, most wargames have pretty much identical statlines across factions, like flames of war...

See, the condescension is unnecessary. You can claim you play a different game, but you don't. Last time I checked, you still use the same rulebook as us "kiddies" use in 40K. It's sorta odd thinking that someone claims the high ground just because their man-dollies cost more than mine. To the vast majority of humans who don't participate in our hobby, that just makes you more of a fool, amirite?

**SirDonlad**

master of ordinance wrote:
Demons? Wait, there are demons in 30K? News to me.

I dont really count knights as they do not really qualify as an army but more as a massive and, sadly, technically legal dick move.

Yeah man, they slipped it in under the radar with the two Daemons they did recently - It's in the 'Lord of the Ruinstorm' rule...

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Samus_Daemon_Prince_of_the_Ruinstorm.pdf

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Corbax_Utterblight.pdf

I think i agree with you on the knights, i saw the knights as something you'd take against another knight houshold, the marine matchup would be a one-off challenge type affair for me - loads of objectives and set in a city with stuff from 'cities of death' shoehorned in.

**Davor**

ImAGeek wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
I play Marines, and still don't like 30k.

"You know that faction who's detractors say spoils the game by making it too same-y? Let's make a game out of JUST that faction!"

Lol. That being said, I am primarily a Dark Eldar player, and there's never ever ever going to be any support for my main army in 30k, which definitely plays into my feelings on it. I also REALLY don't like most of the models that have come out for it.

Basically, as I write this I realize I have nothing positive to say about 30k. (Oooh, one thing! Volkite weapons being a thing made it easier for me to convert plasma gun retinue members for my Inquisition. But that's it.)

It's not like they invented 30k now though, it's been a big part of the background for a long time. So 'let's make a game out of just the faction that makes the game samey' isn't really accurate, so much as 'let's make a game out of this huge part of our background who's novels have been selling incredibly well'.

Or lets ignore 1/2 our player base so they don't bother with something new we make. (I don't know if the player base is 50% space marine but I hope my idea comes across)

So way to neglect 50% or 75% or even 25% of sales.

**ImAGeek**

Davor wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
I play Marines, and still don't like 30k.

"You know that faction who's detractors say spoils the game by making it too same-y? Let's make a game out of JUST that faction!"

Lol. That being said, I am primarily a Dark Eldar player, and there's never ever ever going to be any support for my main army in 30k, which definitely plays into my feelings on it. I also REALLY don't like most of the models that have come out for it.

Basically, as I write this I realize I have nothing positive to say about 30k. (Oooh, one thing! Volkite weapons being a thing made it easier for me to convert plasma gun retinue members for my Inquisition. But that's it.)

It's not like they invented 30k now though, it's been a big part of the background for a long time. So 'let's make a game out of just the faction that makes the game samey' isn't really accurate, so much as 'let's make a game out of this huge part of our background who's novels have been selling incredibly well'.

Or lets ignore 1/2 our player base so they don't bother with something new we make. (I don't know if the player base is 50% space marine but I hope my idea comes across)

So way to neglect 50% or 75% or even 25% of sales.

Which would be a good point except clearly the Heresy stuff has been doing very well so it's hardly been a bad business move. Anyway, they're not ignoring any player base, it's almost a new game, especially the way they had it originally where it wasn't meant to be played vs 40k, so you either played it or you didn't. It's not like everyone who plays Space Marines would also play heresy, or anyone who doesn't play SM wouldn't. It's not that cut and dry. I pretty much hate SM in 40k but I love the Heresy.

**reds8n**

the_Armyman wrote:

See, the condescension is unnecessary.

Indeed.

No need to be rude to others.

Thank you.

**tyrannosaurus**

Roll lots and lots of dice, person with above average rolls wins, same reason 40k isn't my cup of tea. Beautiful models though, seems to be more about the aesthetic than the gameplay.

**rowboatjellyfanxiii**

Not sure what this talk of existing player base is about, because 30k is a new game for it's own TARGETED AUDIENCE (Adults, long time players, fans of fluff, banana-clip missile launcher lovers.)

**Vector Strike**

30k will let me play (real) Thousand Sons! That's all I need.

**rowboatjellyfanxiii**

Not sure what this talk of existing player base is about, because 30k is a new game for it's own TARGETED AUDIENCE (Adults, long time players, fans of fluff, banana-clip missile launcher lovers.).

Forgeworld are not ridding themselves of anyone important in their eyes, those who don't buy their products are not accounted for.

I hate to be pretencious but honestly, I'd rather stick with a consistent, balanced game that recieves frequent FAQ's, book releases, problem adressing (i.e Old Legions being buffed, some might yell Power Creep but it's not, It's called testing the market and improving the game, think of it like Patch Updates on a video game.) and consistently good looking miniatures across their whole line than a deliberately money-grubbing company with inconsistent rules, miniatures, paint systems and £20 FOR A PAIR OF CLIPPERS? WHAT!?

**bomtek80**

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Not sure what this talk of existing player base is about, because 30k is a new game for it's own TARGETED AUDIENCE (Adults, long time players, fans of fluff, banana-clip missile launcher lovers.).

Forgeworld are not ridding themselves of anyone important in their eyes, those who don't buy their products are not accounted for.

I hate to be pretencious but honestly, I'd rather stick with a consistent, balanced game that recieves frequent FAQ's, book releases, problem adressing (i.e Old Legions being buffed, some might yell Power Creep but it's not, It's called testing the market and improving the game, think of it like Patch Updates on a video game.) and consistently good looking miniatures across their whole line than a deliberately money-grubbing company with inconsistent rules, miniatures, paint systems and £20 FOR A PAIR OF CLIPPERS? WHAT!?

Exalted

**tyrannosaurus**

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Not sure what this talk of existing player base is about, because 30k is a new game for it's own TARGETED AUDIENCE (Adults, long time players, fans of fluff, banana-clip missile launcher lovers.).

Forgeworld are not ridding themselves of anyone important in their eyes, those who don't buy their products are not accounted for.

I hate to be pretencious but honestly, I'd rather stick with a consistent, balanced game that recieves frequent FAQ's, book releases, problem adressing (i.e Old Legions being buffed, some might yell Power Creep but it's not, It's called testing the market and improving the game, think of it like Patch Updates on a video game.) and consistently good looking miniatures across their whole line than a deliberately money-grubbing company with inconsistent rules, miniatures, paint systems and £20 FOR A PAIR OF CLIPPERS? WHAT!?

Games Workshop = Forge World. Same company, money goes to the same place. 30k for me is for 40k vets angry at GW and who don't want to give them their money, but still love the background. Buying FW allows them to convince themselves it's sticking it to GW.

**ImAGeek**

tyrannosaurus wrote:
rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Not sure what this talk of existing player base is about, because 30k is a new game for it's own TARGETED AUDIENCE (Adults, long time players, fans of fluff, banana-clip missile launcher lovers.).

Forgeworld are not ridding themselves of anyone important in their eyes, those who don't buy their products are not accounted for.

I hate to be pretencious but honestly, I'd rather stick with a consistent, balanced game that recieves frequent FAQ's, book releases, problem adressing (i.e Old Legions being buffed, some might yell Power Creep but it's not, It's called testing the market and improving the game, think of it like Patch Updates on a video game.) and consistently good looking miniatures across their whole line than a deliberately money-grubbing company with inconsistent rules, miniatures, paint systems and £20 FOR A PAIR OF CLIPPERS? WHAT!?

Games Workshop = Forge World. Same company, money goes to the same place. 30k for me is for 40k vets angry at GW and who don't want to give them their money, but still love the background. Buying FW allows them to convince themselves it's sticking it to GW.

I think it's more rewarding good behaviour rather than being convinced they're sticking it to Games Workshop.

**locarno24**

SirDonlad wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Demons? Wait, there are demons in 30K? News to me.

I dont really count knights as they do not really qualify as an army but more as a massive and, sadly, technically legal dick move.

Yeah man, they slipped it in under the radar with the two Daemons they did recently - It's in the 'Lord of the Ruinstorm' rule...

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Samus_Daemon_Prince_of_the_Ruinstorm.pdf

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Corbax_Utterblight.pdf

I think i agree with you on the knights, i saw the knights as something you'd take against another knight houshold, the marine matchup would be a one-off challenge type affair for me - loads of objectives and set in a city with stuff from 'cities of death' shoehorned in.

yup. Lord of the ruinstorm is a balancing factor between "40k daemons" and the power level of most 30k lists.

Marines can do nasty things to knights - but yeah, ultimately you're going to have to play the mission.

**455_PWR**

Anyone who plays 40k k ows that space marines are their flagship, and what got the game off the ground. Selling marines keeps them in business. If you play 40k, chances are you enjoy marines or the storyline at minimum. This is what makes 30k great. You get to play fluff that leads into 40k and shows why 40k is what it is today.

If the 30k legions never fell, unified they would have crushed all xenos and you would not have them as armies to play.

I enjoy 40k, but it has massive cheese and power/balance issues. 30k is balanced, different, and fun. Once played often you learn the differences and it really is a balanced, mature 40k.

Don't like it? Don't play it and stay out of our leagues. Want to play it or like marines/imperial armies? Come on down and get some great games in with us.

Hate marines? Well you are in the small minority then. Realize that gw is not going to market heavily to you then. Sorry but gw is mostly about marines

**Davor**

ImAGeek wrote:
Davor wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
I play Marines, and still don't like 30k.

"You know that faction who's detractors say spoils the game by making it too same-y? Let's make a game out of JUST that faction!"

Lol. That being said, I am primarily a Dark Eldar player, and there's never ever ever going to be any support for my main army in 30k, which definitely plays into my feelings on it. I also REALLY don't like most of the models that have come out for it.

Basically, as I write this I realize I have nothing positive to say about 30k. (Oooh, one thing! Volkite weapons being a thing made it easier for me to convert plasma gun retinue members for my Inquisition. But that's it.)

It's not like they invented 30k now though, it's been a big part of the background for a long time. So 'let's make a game out of just the faction that makes the game samey' isn't really accurate, so much as 'let's make a game out of this huge part of our background who's novels have been selling incredibly well'.

Or lets ignore 1/2 our player base so they don't bother with something new we make. (I don't know if the player base is 50% space marine but I hope my idea comes across)

So way to neglect 50% or 75% or even 25% of sales.

Which would be a good point except clearly the Heresy stuff has been doing very well so it's hardly been a bad business move. Anyway, they're not ignoring any player base, it's almost a new game, especially the way they had it originally where it wasn't meant to be played vs 40k, so you either played it or you didn't. It's not like everyone who plays Space Marines would also play heresy, or anyone who doesn't play SM wouldn't. It's not that cut and dry. I pretty much hate SM in 40k but I love the Heresy.

When you say Heresy has been selling well, do you mean by Forge World or Battle of Calth?

You do make some good points.

**ImAGeek**

Well I meant FW but Calth seems to have done pretty well too

**Davor**

ImAGeek wrote:
Well I meant FW but Calth seems to have done pretty well too

Thing is, isn't Forge World a niche within a nice? Taking a big chance with that By that I mean taking a niche within a niche and make it a full fledge product for everyone. Then again Age of Sigmar seemed to do pretty well in it's first or two weeks, so time will tell to see where BoC goes. Depending on your area AoS is either doing really well or doing very poorly. I guess same thing can be for BoC. Do well great now, but after mostly everyone bought the box just for the minis, will it continue as a game? Just look at that assassin game (sorry forgot the name). Thing is BoC is a core product, so will see how it goes.

For me, I am tired of Space Marines. Tired of Space Marines in a Fantasy setting so now I can't get excited for Space Marines in a 30K setting. If this was done before AoS then maybe I could like it (for the price of $180 Canadian, I can't get excited for it) but now, I am just Space Marined out.