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Hello wise people of the internet! I come to you with a question: Don't Space Marines mind the worshiping of the Emperor as a God by mortals? When he was still kicking, the Emperor made it abundantly clear that he didn't want to be worshiped and that he was not a God. Unless the Space Marines went through a mass amnesia, they should remember that pretty important fact. So, do they not protest against the Eclesiarchy and its' cult? They seem pretty zealous on all the rest of the Emperor's teachings; why not this one too?

(Just to be clear, I am obviously talking about loyalist marines here. Chaos Marines are pretty clear on their thoughts on this )

It's been ten thousand years. No one really remembers what the Emperor said, He's nigh mythical at this point. Most of the people who are taken into a Space Marine Chapter were born on planets with Ecclesiarchal presences (especially, you know, the Imperial Fists, who recruit from Terra).

There are roughly 35 canon Chapters with close ties to the Ecclesiarchy, who are definitely in the Emperor-worshipping camp.

Most of them don't worship him as a god actually. They revere him as the pinnacle of mankind, but not a god.

I doubt one could be in real tight with the Ecclesiarchy and profess such a heresy, unless you mean "most" as in "of the remaining Chapters of the 1,000 apart from those 35".

 Psienesis wrote:
I doubt one could be in real tight with the Ecclesiarchy and profess such a heresy, unless you mean "most" as in "of the remaining Chapters of the 1,000 apart from those 35".

Yes that is what I meant. Your reply wasn't up yet when I started writing my own.

There are plenty of figures in religions all over the place who never wanted to be worshiped. Yet we know thats not what happened.

The Emperor didn't say he wasn't to be worshiped because he said so. He said he wasn't to be worshiped as a god *because* he wasn't a god *because* gods don't exist any more than daemons and magic exist. By the time Horus' forces were vanquished the surviving Astartes would have been in even less doubt about the Emperor's dishonesty than the Imperium public in general.

 Gashrog wrote:
The Emperor didn't say he wasn't to be worshiped because he said so. He said he wasn't to be worshiped as a god *because* he wasn't a god *because* gods don't exist any more than daemons and magic exist. By the time Horus' forces were vanquished the surviving Astartes would have been in even less doubt about the Emperor's dishonesty than the Imperium public in general.

I would think the Astartes would have been even more convinced that he wasn't a god after the siege. They still didn't fully understand the concept of daemons and the warp and what have you, and they would have very recently witnessed a broken and bloodied Emperor being dragged away by Dorn to be placed on life support.

Most chapters seem to tolerate Emperor worship even if they don't indulge themselves. All Astartes at least venerate the Emperor as the exemplar of humankind.

Some chapters (Black Templars and Fire Hawks come to mind) are fervent believers. They'd be part of the '35' other posters referred to, though I've never heard the number of E-worshipping chapters given a number before. I'd like to see a source on that. Out of 1,000+ chapters I'd expect more to worship the Emperor.

I'd guess that the later a chapter was founded the more likely that it worships the Emperor. First Founding chapters and their direct descendants either interacted with the Emperor themselves and knew his 'humanness'. Later chapters, particularly those without strong ties to their parent chapter, might only know him as a mighty figure of myth. (Black Templars being a notable 2nd founding exception.)

It's easier to worship a figure of myth than a living, breathing exemplar.

That said, I'd be surprised if fervent chapters amounted to more than a smallish minority... perhaps 5-10% of all chapters tops. If my 5-10% is in the ballpark that'd be more like 50-100 chapters out of 1000. Veneration is an integral part of Astartes psychological makeup, while worship is not.

Based on the fact that only one of the original 20 Legions was religion-focused (Word Bearers), I'd lean more toward 5%. Just my personal opinion of course. On the other hand, a lot has changed in the IOM since the Heresy.

My two cents.

The Eclesiarchy was formed around M32 right? Had all the Space Marines who'd met the Emperor died by then? Or at least, had not a single Ultramarine written down: "Hey, you know what happened today? The big E gathered our entire legion to have us watch as he yelled at Lorgar: "I AM NOT A GOD!"

All Speehhse marines are brainwashed zombies all trained to shoot at the guy who asks questions screaming "I SMELL HERESY" so no-one would voice an opinion or they would have a melta shoved down their throat.

 SpaceMushroom wrote:
The Eclesiarchy was formed around M32 right? Had all the Space Marines who'd met the Emperor died by then? Or at least, had not a single Ultramarine written down: "Hey, you know what happened today? The big E gathered our entire legion to have us watch as he yelled at Lorgar: "I AM NOT A GOD!"

Bjorn's still alive and kickin', and seeing as he was a very high-ranking Space Wolf back during the Heresy I would've thought that he'd at least would've met the Emperor in person.

Space Marines generally have little time to deal with humans, and those that do usually only interact with people on their own recruiting world. They're warriors, not preachers, and their own preachers (Chaplains) only preach to their Chapter. Many recruiting worlds are also so primitive and worthless that they might not even have heard about this "Emperor" fellow. The Ecclesiarchy does send missions to convert newly discovered human populations but if the choice is between a feral world with a few million people or an industrial world with a few billion, well, money talks.

The IoM, or the Ecclesiarchy at least, might like more Chapters to worship the Emperor as a god. But forcing them is out of the question due to the way it's all set up. As long as their cult is Emperor-veneration and doesn't smell of Chaos things are cool or at least nothing worth stirring up trouble over.

As to why there aren't more Emperor-worshipping Chapters I'd guess the fan theory on how Chapters are founded makes some sense. Theory being that the new marines will be assigned a small training cadre of veterans with the same geneseed heritage who teach them how to be a marine and help them start a Chapter cult. If this was handled by regular humans they'd just teach the newbies Emperor worship as that's all they know.

I think most of them don't care. Whilst they don't outright worship him, most do worship their primarchs in some form. I think many of them worship the emperor in all but name. Whilst he may have not wanted to be worshiped and even said he was not a god that will be written off as modesty, or a wish to test the faithful. Those that truly do not, well, it's just not worth the effort. What damage does it do? The Ecclesiarchy are very good at keeping people working hard and not rebelling in general. Whats the risk of doing something about it? Huge.

 Orblivion wrote:

I would think the Astartes would have been even more convinced that he wasn't a god after the siege. They still didn't fully understand the concept of daemons and the warp and what have you, and they would have very recently witnessed a broken and bloodied Emperor being dragged away by Dorn to be placed on life support.

Why? Most religions have stories of gods or their avatars being beaten or killed. The difference between gods and mortals tends to be what happens after death, and there is much speculation about what will happen to the big E if/when he does eventually die.

Spetulhu wrote:
Many recruiting worlds are also so primitive and worthless that they might not even have heard about this "Emperor" fellow. The Ecclesiarchy does send missions to convert newly discovered human populations but if the choice is between a feral world with a few million people or an industrial world with a few billion, well, money talks.

I get the feeling that they are rather like the roman empire, in that they will also allow worlds to keep their own religion as long as it does not clash with the orthodoxy massively (including not being chaos worshiping). Lots of "Hello backward natives! You know that great lizard you worship that lives in the sky and vomits up the sun every morning? Ye, thats actually the same god we worship, just in a different form. Ye, look, what you believe is very close to us, but you just seem to have made a few errors interpreting this line and that page of your holy book. Oh, and that bit". Eventually every world gets its own approximation and understanding of the Imperial Creed.

 Orblivion wrote:
Most of them don't worship him as a god actually. They revere him as the pinnacle of mankind, but not a god.

I believe its as God/Ancestor. Marine cults have more in common with Ancestor worship than outright deities.

Marines themselves are almost worshiped as Demi-gods by the general populace, and maybe Marines have generally accepted their position in this pantheon.

 Steve steveson wrote:
I get the feeling that they are rather like the roman empire, in that they will also allow worlds to keep their own religion as long as it does not clash with the orthodoxy massively. Lots of "Hello backward natives! You know that great lizard you worship that lives in the sky and vomits up the sun every morning? Ye, thats actually the same god we worship, just in a different form. Ye, look, what you believe is very close to us, but you just seem to have made a few errors interpreting this line and that page of your holy book. Oh, and that bit". Eventually every world gets its own approximation and understanding of the Imperial Creed.

Oh, that's probably all true from what I've seen of the setting. There was this one place in Eisenhorn where people worshipped their sun since they lived on a planet with really long and hard winters. The nobility and others well-off would spend the winter time in some sort of hibernation chambers while the riffraff kept things running. Then in the spring everyone would wake up and together greet the great sun god that brought new life to their world. When the world was rediscovered by the IoM the Ecclesiarchy was careful to not cause a big stir (because rich and technologically advanced), they just slowly introduced the idea that the Emperor was responsible for the new sunrise. In effect they made the Emperor equal the local sun god.

But some places are just too insignificant and/or too dangerous for missionaries. Many Space Marine home worlds fit this description. The natives may well worship any sort of nature gods that a primitive people would have and only see organized religion when inducted into the Chapter cult.

The Missionaria Galactica and the Adepta Sororitas Sabine are both adept at converting worlds - the Missionaria by going from town to town preaching The New Way, and the Sabine by infiltrating the society and converting them one person at a time in such a clever manner that the people never even realise they've been converted.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
Most chapters seem to tolerate Emperor worship even if they don't indulge themselves. All Astartes at least venerate the Emperor as the exemplar of humankind.

Some chapters (Black Templars and Fire Hawks come to mind) are fervent believers. They'd be part of the '35' other posters referred to, though I've never heard the number of E-worshipping chapters given a number before. I'd like to see a source on that. Out of 1,000+ chapters I'd expect more to worship the Emperor.

I'd guess that the later a chapter was founded the more likely that it worships the Emperor. First Founding chapters and their direct descendants either interacted with the Emperor themselves and knew his 'humanness'. Later chapters, particularly those without strong ties to their parent chapter, might only know him as a mighty figure of myth. (Black Templars being a notable 2nd founding exception.)

It's easier to worship a figure of myth than a living, breathing exemplar.

That said, I'd be surprised if fervent chapters amounted to more than a smallish minority... perhaps 5-10% of all chapters tops. If my 5-10% is in the ballpark that'd be more like 50-100 chapters out of 1000. Veneration is an integral part of Astartes psychological makeup, while worship is not.

Based on the fact that only one of the original 20 Legions was religion-focused (Word Bearers), I'd lean more toward 5%. Just my personal opinion of course. On the other hand, a lot has changed in the IOM since the Heresy.

My two cents.

I went through the list of Loyalist Space Marine Chapters on Lexicanum and read each and every entry, looking for references to veneration of the Emperor, close ties to the Ecclesiarchy, etc.

I had, somewhere, a file that listed them all individually that I cannot, for the life of me, find (it was 2 PCs ago...) but here's a bit from the notes I was taking while compiling the list:

Various sources on Lexicanum wrote:
The Fire Hawks are one, prior to becoming the LotD, having been one of the first to the fight during the Age of Apostasy, in support of Sebastian Thor (and did, in fact, get awarded a Heresy-era Battle Barge by him, iirc, as Vandire had destroyed their homeworld). (IA v9, C:UM 2E, WH40K Comp, WD 99, C:Assassins 3E)

The Adulators were mentioned in a Chapter Approved article, of which it is said (according to Lexicanum) "The chapter is steeped in the ways of the Ecclesiarchy and are on close terms with their holy orders". (Chapter Approved 2001, Blood of Asaheim(BL) )

The Angels Revenant were said to be "stern supporters of the Imperial Creed". (Chapter Approved 2001, IA v12)

The White Consuls also worship the Emperor as a god, which is noted for being unusual for the Astartes. (WH40K BRB 5E, C:UM, C: EoT, DW: Rites of Battle, C: SM 6E ebook)

The Doom Eagles are "notoriously pious". (DW: Honour the Chapter, Legends of the Space Marines anthology, several BL novels/stories)

The Fire Angels (a UM Successor) are zealously dedicated to the Creed. Of them, it is said, "they do not revere their ancestral primarch (Roboute Guilliman) as most chapters do, believing this to be a form of idolatry". (IA v9)

The Red Scorpions, who developed the Helios-pattern Land Raider, are seriously in the Emp-worshipping camp. (IA v4, v6, v7, v9, WD 101, WD 105)

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SpaceMushroom wrote:
The Eclesiarchy was formed around M32 right? Had all the Space Marines who'd met the Emperor died by then? Or at least, had not a single Ultramarine written down: "Hey, you know what happened today? The big E gathered our entire legion to have us watch as he yelled at Lorgar: "I AM NOT A GOD!"

Bjorn's still alive and kickin', and seeing as he was a very high-ranking Space Wolf back during the Heresy I would've thought that he'd at least would've met the Emperor in person.

tbf, the Space Wolves worshiped the Allfather from the start.