How is AoS doing and why?

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**Saldiven**

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
I can tell you I have been playing Warhammer FB/40k since mid 2003 and before AoS I had NEVER seen any game that didn't abide to the typical pick up rules. Heck even the AoS games that I have knowledge of here are played following homebrewed rules to MAKE them closer to what was universally liked before.

I've been playing both since 1988 (though I stopped 40K a few years ago and WHFB when the End Times stuff dropped), and my experience has almost universally matched yours.

Very occasionally (maybe once or twice per year) did we put together some event that deviated significantly from the standard rules for force creation. Even all the way back to Rogue Trader and WHFB 3rd edition when the only points stuff was what appeared in the main rule book, that's what we used.

**Azreal13**

puree wrote:
I've been playing WFB on and off since it came out in 198?. 2003 would be probably near enough for 40k, can't remember exactly.

I can't talk to what you have seen only myself. WFB didn't have army lists when I started, and us kids didn't have more than a unit or 2 each. All our games were pre-arranged either at the games club or someones house. Back then GW had very few stores and the nearest would have been about 60 miles away. I'm not sure they even had game tables back then, they were not a GW only store but a general game store.

The only pick up games I've seen since are the ones at the GW stores. Most other players arrange their games in advance at clubs or other regular meets. It is certainly possible that club goers in particular use points and army lists if they have nothing else in particular they are involved in. The game gives them that as a default, but if it didn't I have no doubt they would use what other default there was. Points alone would probably suffice, even historical gamers drop army lists and just use points. Imagi-nations and what ifs can be quiet popular.

I haven't seen a lot of AoS games yet, but I haven't exactly gone looking that hard. But the few I have seen have not had any house rules (that said I can't speak to some of the video reports I've also watched, though if they did use house rules they were not obvious and presumably took place before recording), we didn't house rule lists etc when we played, we eyeballed and just stuck down what we had for the factions were using which happened to provide close enough games.

Lets turn this around a bit. I have said that whilst I am happy with points being missing I also don't have an issue with having them either. If I or someone else turned up at random to wherever you play with a small 2000pt dino army, or the small 2000pt Artic Ogre Nomad Mourngang/Mammoth list converted with fur cloaks and hats etc on nice snow bases (one of the other armies I considered) all painted (table top quality, I'm no golden demon painter) would you refuse that pick up game due to lack of army list compliance. Will I be excluded from pick up games because the time effort and money didn't produce a 'legal' army. Is uber balance so important that rather than play with someone you would refuse a game, would you even think about talking and ask whether I can maybe drop a unit or something as your more rounded army can't handle that heavy emphasis I have? Should pick up games not also include those who have focused on the minis they want. Why exclude a set of potential players who only want to do minis they can really 'get into' as opposed to armies you want to impose on them.

It's not just about the "dino army" concept though, it's also a mechanic that ensures a game is a fair contest.

It allows people, in theory, who don't have mathematics degrees and years of games design experience to select an army and know, again, in theory, that facing a force of equal points means they've got an approximately equal chance of winning the game, and if they do, they are the architect of that victory, not that they've simply chosen demonstrably better models in game than their opponent.

It isn't about über balance, it's about a fair contest. We aren't talking about RPGs here, we're talking about a style of game with an inherently confrontational paradigm, there are winners and losers. Most people I know don't mind if they lose, but they get a whole lot more bothered if they feel they couldn't have ever won.

Points facilitate that, and, again, as already pointed out, a tightly written, well balanced ruleset does not exclude you choosing something which lives outside those rules. Neither does the absence of such mean that by putting down a bunch of models because they're the most efficient choices excuse you of douchebaggery, and in my experience if you've genuinely built an unorthodox force for any game, people are usually fine with it as long as it's not been done to take advantage of some sort of inequity in the rules.

**Saldiven**

Mymearan wrote:
In Sweden at least there are very few pick-up games (by which I mean games played between people who don't know each other very well, who don't communicate before meeting and don't have an implied social contract partially determining what they will bring without asking first), simply because we don't have that many game stores. Most games are played at clubs or at home.

But, when you play, do you establish a points limit and show up with a list based on those points? Or, rather, do you throw together a cinematic or campaign style series of battles where a story is more important than attempting any sort of balance between forces?

The former is "pick up style" play.

**Graphite**

Saldiven wrote:
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
I can tell you I have been playing Warhammer FB/40k since mid 2003 and before AoS I had NEVER seen any game that didn't abide to the typical pick up rules. Heck even the AoS games that I have knowledge of here are played following homebrewed rules to MAKE them closer to what was universally liked before.

I've been playing both since 1988 (though I stopped 40K a few years ago and WHFB when the End Times stuff dropped), and my experience has almost universally matched yours.

Very occasionally (maybe once or twice per year) did we put together some event that deviated significantly from the standard rules for force creation. Even all the way back to Rogue Trader and WHFB 3rd edition when the only points stuff was what appeared in the main rule book, that's what we used.

Yeah, I'd say I've been playing since about 1992? I have never in all that time turned up at a random store where I knew absolutely nobody and tried to get a game. It's always been in clubs. And almost without exception they've been points based equal match games unless it's a campaign system like Necromunda. And the exceptions were usually planned at least a week in advance, and even then they generally use points as a ready reckoner of force imbalance. Saying that most people play in clubs therefore they've always worked out what type of game they want to play and that points systems are generally ignored simply isn't true.

(Ignore the flag, I'm in the UK)

**TheAuldGrump**

Graphite wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
I can tell you I have been playing Warhammer FB/40k since mid 2003 and before AoS I had NEVER seen any game that didn't abide to the typical pick up rules. Heck even the AoS games that I have knowledge of here are played following homebrewed rules to MAKE them closer to what was universally liked before.

I've been playing both since 1988 (though I stopped 40K a few years ago and WHFB when the End Times stuff dropped), and my experience has almost universally matched yours.

Very occasionally (maybe once or twice per year) did we put together some event that deviated significantly from the standard rules for force creation. Even all the way back to Rogue Trader and WHFB 3rd edition when the only points stuff was what appeared in the main rule book, that's what we used.

Yeah, I'd say I've been playing since about 1992? I have never in all that time turned up at a random store where I knew absolutely nobody and tried to get a game. It's always been in clubs. And almost without exception they've been points based equal match games unless it's a campaign system like Necromunda. And the exceptions were usually planned at least a week in advance, and even then they generally use points as a ready reckoner of force imbalance. Saying that most people play in clubs therefore they've always worked out what type of game they want to play and that points systems are generally ignored simply isn't true.

(Ignore the flag, I'm in the UK)

Back when I was a much younger Grump, I had games that spontaneously generated in the food court of a shopping mall.... (The game store at the mall didn't have a table. But the food court was just sitting there....)

The Auld Grump - I also ran a James Bond RPG in that food court, again with absolute strangers....

**Vermis**

Azreal13 wrote:

It allows people, in theory, who don't have mathematics degrees and years of games design experience to select an army...

All of a sudden I'm reminded of Micro Squad's scenario design rules. (It's free on Wargame Vault, go check it out.)

I still wish there was some more implementation of scenario gaming, but there's no denying the neat convenience of points for pickups. Though I also still thnk they're not entirely mutually exclusive. Heck, most points-based rulebooks have a few scenarios in the back these days, right? How to expand on that?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAuldGrump wrote:
Back when I was a much younger Grump, I had games that spontaneously generated in the food court of a shopping mall.... (The game store at the mall didn't have a table. But the food court was just sitting there....)

The Auld Grump - I also ran a James Bond RPG in that food court, again with absolute strangers....

Blog post please.

**puree**

The argument is that points and lists are needed for pick up games. I take that to mean that as the Americans are saying they turn up at some place with pretty much no knowledge of who they will be playing etc. Similar to those who go to GW stores at the weekend and play who ever else turns up.

I didn't say that club goers ignore points etc (and points are not the main point being discussed, army lists are I believe as they are what mandates or prevents the use of certain miniatures and all that implies for getting people to play). I said they are not by definition pick up games (as I understand it to mean), and given they see each other regularly they are not in need of points and army lists as some vital rule, as they can discuss ahead, just as you say they do. It has seldom been my experience in the past that you will get a game at club that wasn't already arranged as most people seem to be at them for pre-arranged games, or club events etc. They are using those army lists and points as that is presented as the default. If you took lists away I have no doubt that they would continue to work with points. If you took the points away then they would continue to work with whatever else was provided or come up with their own (assuming they like the game itself, many don't like AoS irrespective of points etc).

**MWHistorian**

I rely almost exclusively on pick up games. I might know their names.

**Azreal13**

puree wrote:
The argument is that points and lists are needed for pick up games. I take that to mean that as the Americans are saying they turn up at some place with pretty much no knowledge of who they will be playing etc. Similar to those who go to GW stores at the weekend and play who ever else turns up.

I didn't say that club goers ignore points etc (and points are not the main point being discussed, army lists are I believe as they are what mandates or prevents the use of certain miniatures and all that implies for getting people to play). I said they are not by definition pick up games (as I understand it to mean), and given they see each other so regular they are not in need of points and army lists as some vital rule, as they can discuss ahead, just as you say they do. It has seldom been my experience in the past that you will get a game at club that wasn't already arranged as most people seem to be at them for pre-arranged games, or club events etc. They are using those army lists and points as that is presented as the default. If you took lists away I have no doubt that they would continue to work with points. If you took the points away then they would continue to work with whatever else was provided or come up with their own (assuming they like the game itself, many don't like AoS irrespective of points etc).

They'd still need a method of arbitrating what's a fair contest and what isn't, if you're not playing a scenario then you still want a fairly even balance of power between the two opposing sides.

Points, being strictly literal, aren't needed, but a method of determining parity is. Otherwise you're just abandoning all pretence of it being a war game and just playing a very shallow and basic RPG.

**puree**

They'd still need a method of arbitrating what's a fair contest and what isn't, if you're not playing a scenario then you still want a fairly even balance of power between the two opposing sides.

Points, being strictly literal, aren't needed, but a method of determining parity is. Otherwise you're just abandoning all pretence of it being a war game and just playing a very shallow and basic RPG.

Sure, as I keep saying I have no great problem with a game design that uses points, even if I'm personally happy enough without them. Fantasy miniature games that use army lists is where I give the game (or more accurately buying into the minis) a miss.

Points plus army lists gives a distinct impression of a much more 'competitive' or 'overly serious' game. It's a fantasy game and the primary reason for it is to sell the models. Army lists get in the way of just getting and playing the models you want or worse making you get models you don't want, points don't. Points give you your game arbitrator for those who want to just play the default type game.

[edit] So going back to the earlier post are you saying that for the XXXpt armies that is not army list compliant you would refuse to play, even though you have points and the other guy may well be happy to talk setup etc given all he wants to do is play with his models. I couldn't work out which way you were going?

**Yodhrin**

puree wrote:
-snip-

Ooh lovely, semantics with a thick tasty topping of implications that anyone who likes the mechanic you personally don't care about are manchildren incapable of coming to simple agreements; classy response.

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

puree wrote:
They'd still need a method of arbitrating what's a fair contest and what isn't, if you're not playing a scenario then you still want a fairly even balance of power between the two opposing sides.

Points, being strictly literal, aren't needed, but a method of determining parity is. Otherwise you're just abandoning all pretence of it being a war game and just playing a very shallow and basic RPG.

Sure, as I keep saying I have no great problem with a game design that uses points, even if I'm personally happy enough without them. Fantasy miniature games that use army lists is where I give the game (or more accurately buying into the minis) a miss.

Points plus army lists gives a distinct impression of a much more 'competitive' or 'overly serious' game. It's a fantasy game and the primary reason for it is to sell the models. Army lists get in the way of just getting and playing the models you want or worse making you get models you don't want, points don't. Points give you your game arbitrator for those who want to just play the default type game.

[edit] So going back to the earlier post are you saying that for the XXXpt armies that is not army list compliant you would refuse to play, even though you have points and the other guy may well be happy to talk setup etc given all he wants to do is play with his models. I couldn't work out which way you were going?

"So you want me to play my 450 pts of Space Marines against your 5 Titans? SURE THING! That's gonna be so swell! Especially for me as I watch my army being vaporized on T1!"

**puree**

Ooh lovely, semantics with a thick tasty topping of implications that anyone who likes the mechanic you personally don't care about are manchildren incapable of coming to simple agreements; classy response.

So like me you believe adults can work out balance and good games without list etc, as they will talk about it?

If the argument is that pick up games need the army lists, and that seems to be what is being argued that I can see (this whole lizard players and dino armies effectively comes about from that, not points or lack thereof) then working out whether armies that do not follow some list building rule will get rejected at some place where pick up games are played is a perfectly fair question.

If you will play such a list because the points are OK then you don't need army lists, if you need army lists then you do have a game that will get in the way of a set of potential players.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

"So you want me to play my 450 pts of Space Marines against your 5 Titans? SURE THING! That's gonna be so swell! Especially for me as I watch my army being vaporized on T1!"

Are 5 titans worth only 450pts, boy I've been out of 40K a while!

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

puree wrote:
Ooh lovely, semantics with a thick tasty topping of implications that anyone who likes the mechanic you personally don't care about are manchildren incapable of coming to simple agreements; classy response.

So like me you believe adults can work out balance and good games without list etc, as they will talk about it?

If the argument is that pick up games need the army lists, and that seems to be what is being argued that I can see (this whole lizard players and dino armies effectively comes about from that, not points or lack thereof) then working out whether armies that do not follow some list building rule will get rejected at some place where pick up games are played is a perfectly fair question.

If you will play such a list because the points are OK then you don't need army lists, if you need army lists then you do have a game that will get in the way of a set of potential players.

I would have no issue whatsoever in playing an all out dino list with a friend of mine while using WHFB rules - he'd send me the list in advance and I'd just sum up the total points and build an army that matches that point's cost. It's what the points are there for. Now, without any kind of balancing tool? Pffffff.... not really sure it's gonna be fun for me - or for him if I overshoot my "guesstimate" and end up whooping him.

Edit: You're trodding a dangerous path with that "adults can balance things" point...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

puree wrote:
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

"So you want me to play my 450 pts of Space Marines against your 5 Titans? SURE THING! That's gonna be so swell! Especially for me as I watch my army being vaporized on T1!"

Are 5 titans worth only 450pts, boy I've been out of 40K a while!

Why are you falling back on points to balance this match?

The guy "only" has 5 Titans and he really wants to play them all together! Go on... play him

**spiralingcadaver**

jonolikespie wrote:
Things are VERY different outside the UK.

In Australia, and from everything I have heard the US is in the same boat we are, it is not umheaed of to play games in your garage with friends but the vast majority of games take place between two people who meet at a store that might have seen each other around but probably don't know each other's names. You ask if they want a game, if so how many points, introduce myself and then start setting up.

As for clubs, they are rare here but most I have encountered are tied to a store that they use for tables and as a venue. Not many of us will have a table or two at home to invite people over to play on so if you are organizing a game in advance you still meet at the store to play.

I don't know about Europe, but I didn't think they were the same as the UK so I'd guess they lean more towards the pick up community.

+1. Unless it a regular RPG sort of thing, I'd say at least 2/3 of my games are pickups.

**Azreal13**

puree wrote:
They'd still need a method of arbitrating what's a fair contest and what isn't, if you're not playing a scenario then you still want a fairly even balance of power between the two opposing sides.

Points, being strictly literal, aren't needed, but a method of determining parity is. Otherwise you're just abandoning all pretence of it being a war game and just playing a very shallow and basic RPG.

Sure, as I keep saying I have no great problem with a game design that uses points, even if I'm personally happy enough without them. Fantasy miniature games that use army lists is where I give the game (or more accurately buying into the minis) a miss.

Huh? Isn't a "list" simply exactly that? A list of the units you're going to use? Whether you've actually written it down on a piece of paper is largely irrelevant, you could use "force" or "army" and mean largely the same thing. Or are you advocating for literally no structure where I can put down anything I want, in any quantity? Either way, a game that doesn't use some way of balancing the two players' armies to enable a fair contest is, as I mentioned, simply a very shallow, simplistic RPG, barely above the traditional small boys' toy soldiers.

Points plus army lists gives a distinct impression of a much more 'competitive' or 'overly serious' game. It's a fantasy game and the primary reason for it is to sell the models. Army lists get in the way of just getting and playing the models you want or worse making you get models you don't want, points don't. Points give you your game arbitrator for those who want to just play the default type game.

No, that's a fairly GW-centric way of thinking, in fact I'd be totally unsurprised to see something like that in a Jervis Johnson editorial. It's been fairly obvious for a while that GW manipulates the rules to promote model sales, many other games place a far higher priority on the gaming experience and work far harder on making their force selection (I won't call it list building

) as balanced as possible. If players want to modify those painstakingly developed systems, then nothing is stopping them. It's much harder to try and and turn an anything goes system into something that allows a fair contest. Because the nature of what's "fair" is entirely subjective, if there's no limits imposed on the situation and it makes games between star angers harder. It doesn't make games between players who know each other well any more difficult to alter if they want to break out of the status quo.

[edit] So going back to the earlier post are you saying that for the XXXpt armies that is not army list compliant you would refuse to play, even though you have points and the other guy may well be happy to talk setup etc given all he wants to do is play with his models. I couldn't work out which way you were going?

Well, if points exist in the system, the non-compliant list still has a value. If it's obviously been done for creative or fluff reasons, I can still put together a force of approximately equal points, and I'd feel free to modify the structure of that force outside of standard organisation if I wanted to as well. I'd have no problem with that and it would likely thoroughly enjoy the game.

If points don't exist in that game, and if I'm not intimately familiar with the abilities of every model that my opponent has chosen, I've got a cat in hells chance of selecting a force which will give us both an even, and therefore, for me, fun, game. I could accidentally select a force which is way too over or underpowered, and while losing is fine, being steamrollered is no fun for anyone.

So, I'm happy to play unorthodox forces, but outside of a points system there's no way to balance them into a fair contest, but if you put the equivalent of 6 Wraithknights on the table, you can feth off.

**DanielBeaver**

jreilly89 wrote:
Had they just released AoS as a new/side game instead of killing off WHFB, they would be in a better position.

I'm still totally floored that they didn't do that. Especially considering the compatibility with square bases - there is absolutely no reason that AoS couldn't have coexisted with WHFB.

As for sales... we don't have any conrete data, but I can offer an anecdote:
I was talking to my FLGS about it, and they sold about twice as many copies of Betrayal at Calth on the Saturday release than they have sold AoS products since it's release.

**puree**

Why are you falling back on points to balance this match? The guy "only" has 5 Titans and he really wants to play them all together! Go on... play him

My argument was about buying and painting etc models that you want and not buying stuff that you don't want and hence not meeting some list requirement. I thought it was obvious but clearly failed in saying that both players would still have the same points in this 'pick up game' as the start point, but may tweak from there to agree something.

So, lets assume that 2000pts of hypothetical AoS points is a 'standard' sort of size game that most places use. I turn up with 2000pts of lizards that is heavy on dinos. You have a lizard army list book that says 1 monster per 1 unit of core or whatever. My list doesn't meet that, but you have 2000 pts of something else.

A) Will you just say that we are both 2000 pts so lets play.
B) Will you look over my stuff and say that looks nice, love the paint job and I see nothing too horrible for me, it might not be perfectly balanced to mine one way or the other but lets play and see.
C) Will you say happy to play but can you remove one of your 5 dinos or whatever (you take another unit if you have them), as my list based army can't handle 5 dinos, but only 4 or an extra monster slayer unit for me should be interesting .
D) Wave the list book and say I can't play here.

**Azreal13**

Except points don't exist in AOS, and you're saying you're quite happy with that.

What the rest of us are essentially saying is the fact that there's no way to do what you are talking about and that's a big factor behind its apparent lack of popularity.

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

Azreal13 wrote:
Except points don't exist in AOS, and you're saying you're quite happy with that.

What the rest of us are essentially saying is the fact that there's no way to do what you are talking about and that's a big factor behind its apparent lack of popularity.

Exactly! There are a lot of people here that have said that they'd be happy to play that all dino list if there at least something to give us a rough sizing of the strength. Be it points or whatever.

Without that, it's just taking a huge risk of prepping a game that won't be any fun at all.

**RiTides**

puree wrote:
I didn't say that club goers ignore points etc (and points are not the main point being discussed, army lists are I believe as they are what mandates or prevents the use of certain miniatures and all that implies for getting people to play). I said they are not by definition pick up games (as I understand it to mean)

Puree, did you see this post? I think you're just misunderstanding what people refer to when they say "pickup games":

Graphite wrote:
Yeah, I'd say I've been playing since about 1992? I have never in all that time turned up at a random store where I knew absolutely nobody and tried to get a game. It's always been in clubs. And almost without exception they've been points based equal match games unless it's a campaign system like Necromunda. And the exceptions were usually planned at least a week in advance, and even then they generally use points as a ready reckoner of force imbalance. Saying that most people play in clubs therefore they've always worked out what type of game they want to play and that points systems are generally ignored simply isn't true.

(Ignore the flag, I'm in the UK)

Graphite plays in the exact same setting as you, and is referring to the usual way of getting a game - show up to your regular store / club, play an equal points match. Any exception to this had to be planned out (see above).

I think you're generalizing the US a bit too much, it's a pretty big place, after all

. Almost everyone I have heard of here generally frequents the same store (or a few stores) and thus usually knows their opponents. It's possible to get games with strangers, sure, but a lot of times you will be playing a friend or at least someone you are familiar with.

When people say "pickup games" they mean that it's a game you don't have to make an "exception" for (as Graphite says) and work out all the details in advance. You can just walk into the store / club and play.

Hopefully this clears it up, I think you're getting a little confused by what people mean with the term "pickup", when it can really encompass anything other than a special scenario / campaign / rpg type game where details have to be worked out well in advance.

**Saldiven**

RiTides wrote:
I think you're generalizing the US a bit too much, it's a pretty big place, after all . Almost everyone I have heard of here generally frequents the same store (or a few stores) and thus usually knows their opponents. It's possible to get games with strangers, sure, but a lot of times you will be playing a friend or at least someone you are familiar with.

When people say "pickup games" they mean that it's a game you don't have to make an "exception" for (as Graphite says) and work out all the details in advance. You can just walk into the store / club and play.

Exactly 100% of my games over the last ten+ years have taken place at a gaming store. Ever since the first year or so when I was just getting to know people, I would estimate that 75%+ of the games I've had since then have been against people I considered friends. We play at the store because it's a convenient place to meet up that has tables and terrain that we're allowed to use. Honestly, the main time I played against people I didn't already know were in tournaments. I had enough friends and acquaintances at the store that played that I almost never had to play against a complete stranger by the time I decided to stop playing GW games.

To me, a pick up game is merely one that wasn't planned in advance. I would go to the local store to hang out and see if anyone I knew was there and wanted to play, too. This is in contrast to a game that is part of a specific event, such as a tournament, campaign, or something special like a mega-battle.

**Solar_lion**

In our local meta we play mostly prearranged games. If I show up late and and looking for a game I'll work out the details with whomever. However in either case We'll agree on a point total. It may not result in a ' Balanced' game as armies power levels vary as well as what I managed to bring but for me it is the starting point

Communication is the key and I don't have any problem with turning down a power gamer. If junior wants to bring 5 IK ( cause he loves them) and is looking for a game for which I don't have a chance against. I'll pass. not Interested in making it a Special day for Junior. Now Junior sets a game in advance and we work out a game ahead of time.. all good.

I've faced armies that contain 4 knights and 2 WKs in their list. Still played them but what a crappy game for me.

I'll fight any reasonable list. Points for us is the first question. I like doing off shoot games, tank only battles, Knight battles ect.. I still use the points to start.

Last I'm not saying it all has to be equal. Our group doesn't sweat if the points aren't equal ( to a point ). We usually play that for every 5 points off your opponent gets a re-roll.

**spiralingcadaver**

Solar_lion wrote:
We usually play that for every 5 points off your opponent gets a re-roll.

Cool rule, I like that mod... as long as it's not intentionally exploited (i.e. buy 2 fewer guard specifically to get the 2 rerolls)... actually, in general, that might be a bit cheap, but a fun idea either way.

**Solar_lion**

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Solar_lion wrote:
We usually play that for every 5 points off your opponent gets a re-roll.
Cool rule, I like that mod.

We are all about the friendly game. We play competitively and our lists are moderately so. We like a good close game and no one really abuses the rule ( ie .. I added 200 pts so you get 40 re-rolls). Most of the time its like.. I'm off by 6 pts.. or I wanna give these guy melta bombs ( for which they 90 % of the time will never use) 1 re-roll.

**puree**

Azreal13 wrote:
Except points don't exist in AOS, and you're saying you're quite happy with that.

What the rest of us are essentially saying is the fact that there's no way to do what you are talking about and that's a big factor behind its apparent lack of popularity.

I'm not sat here waving a flag that there are no points type happy, so if by happy you mean it doesn't bother me fair enough.

But this wasn't about what we have or what I like. It was about what those of you arguing the other way want. This 'sub' thread started because someone said some might want to do armies that the WFB lists prevented, e.g. the dino army. That is not a points issue, that is an army list issue. That means there must be some who see army lists as essential to pick up games if I follow the general argument. Every one keeps coming back to points though, no matter how many times I say it is not the points that bother me nor prevent me doing that army that I actually am building/painting at the moment. It is the army lists.

So for pick up games what is needed; points, restrictive WFB style army lists defining what constitutes a legal army or both?

So if we had points in AoS but no WFB style army lists would that be a deal breaker for you. Would you feel you could not play your idea of a pick up game (and yes to the above poster there appears to be some crossed wires on what we mean by pick up game, though it probably isn't that relevant). If so is it because you are worried about having those 'uber' balanced games rather than games that are 'near enough, but might be a bit wonky' balanced or some other reason.

**Bottle**

I play AoS, but I think it would be improved with a points system. (I too would like to keep total unbound army selection).

I also think it would be improved by the fluff having more villages.

It's the two things it is missing!

**Mymearan**

Saldiven wrote:
Mymearan wrote:
In Sweden at least there are very few pick-up games (by which I mean games played between people who don't know each other very well, who don't communicate before meeting and don't have an implied social contract partially determining what they will bring without asking first), simply because we don't have that many game stores. Most games are played at clubs or at home.

But, when you play, do you establish a points limit and show up with a list based on those points? Or, rather, do you throw together a cinematic or campaign style series of battles where a story is more important than attempting any sort of balance between forces?

The former is "pick up style" play.

We do both, but the former is not what I would call pick-up style. We know each other, and arrange the game well in advance, which means that we know more or less which army and even which models we will be facing, we have implied or explicit social contracts that help us balance the game, and will agree on house rules etc before playing. If that's pick-up style, then AoS is eminently suited for pick-up style after all!

**RiTides**

Unbound is something to consider, certainly. But I think Unbound + no point values = a complete sandbox that most wargamers aren't interested in entering.

I missed your point on that earlier puree, hopefully this addresses it!

**Solar_lion**

Legal No. But some balance has to play into the equation. Points I admit IMO are arbitrary to begin with. Not sure anyone would agree on what a unit of this cost or this item X is worth. Thus there is an explosion of new games out there.

Nothing prevents you from doing anything you want. Screw the points. But on a consumer scale there has to be some measures other than who can afford the baddest/ biggest models and still relate to the other game players.

BOT: So I think AoS will end up as a nitch market game. No one plays it here. Most of the WFB folks still play the older versions and some actually resent the re-branding.

Off to buy my 2 warlord Titans ( notice I didn't say Tau

) and see if I can get a pick up game! ( humor - all, please don't get bent out of shape )