Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Vermis wrote:


Spearmen here. Since AoS dropped I'd wondered how difficult it might be to scrape the bows, quivers, sea dragons, seaweed etc. off the Lothern sea guard. I decided it'd be easier to sculpt new hands and legs on the old ones. (Biggest problem is how to alleviate the impression that elves have a torso shaped like an upper-case T.)

Why not just use the DE Spearmen regiment instead?

Rihgu wrote:
and while I haven't been there to check it out, I hear that 4chan's /tg/ board is warmly receptive of AoS

I just looked and at best the reception on 4chan could be described as 'tepid'.

There is always a danger of an echo chamber effect but the problems with AoS are so fundamental that I am perfectly willing to take the negativity here as generally representative, not least because it seems to be common on other sites.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Do a great many people even like the Khornate faction? The Stormcast seem to get the most good and bad press, while it seems lots of people just rolled their eyes at Yet Another Chaos Army (tm). Though I could be wrong, mostly as an outsider looking in that really only knows WHFB.

Actually, yes, the Khornate faction provides a way to get more variety in a WE or Daemonkin army.

I have been led to believe that this seems to be how the Khornate models were intended to function - as they also serve an additional hook to get 40k players into AoS.

It could be the opposite. At least, it's the opposite for me. I use the Khornate models for my WE army. They are also suitable for 30k.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

Why not just use the DE Spearmen regiment instead?

1) Too spiky. Or, at least, after nicking a few jagged bits off, I'd still have the problem of scraping the shield icons back and trying blend a patch of putty with the smoothly curved, 3-upped/digitally sculpted surface. To be honest I think I'd find that more of a faff than bodging a few organic, more forgiving details like fingers.

2) That's the other army I started to collect, just for Dragon Rampant. (Akshualee, anyone doing Black Friday deals on DE...? I'll check that thread in News.)

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
I'd say new units are almost a certainty considering that the only concrete info we have on the new dwarves is the short blurbs about Fire Slayers. my guess is that the models from the latest Dwarf release (2013?) will be repackaged and older ones will be replaced.

Many a man has guessed that the old, outdated, models will be updated when an army is due for an update by virtue of them being old, ugly, and don't match the new aesthetic.

Many a man has been brutally disappointed.

Seriously, basic chaos marines are too old and don't match the awesome new look of the chosen, rapots, and yes even the dino bots. The High Elves desperatly needed new spearmen and archers, but instead they got an eagle pulling a chariot.

GW seem to fear that if they release a replacement for a unit without making it a dual kit that makes a new unit they will not get any sales because people will already own the old unit. Which is really dumb since they think that so few people buy to game and everyone buys for the models themselves, someone buying for the models doesn't care if he already owns a box of spearmen if the new spearmen look better he'll buy them.

Oh, I didn't mean they'll actually replace the older kit with newer versions. I think the old kits will be dropped altogether, some might re-emerge in a new form,but most will be replaced with entirely new unit types. That'd be my guess.

Hrm, looks like my local store is now trying to firesale off the AoS starter at 50% off. Part of that's holiday deals, but I don't think they've sold any in the last month either...

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, looks like my local store is now trying to firesale off the AoS starter at 50% off. Part of that's holiday deals, but I don't think they've sold any in the last month either...

Why does everyone else get firesales? My local stores never sell anything for a big discount, it'll be sitting on the shelf 5 years out of date and still only be the same 15% off that it was when it was new

Wrong country.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, looks like my local store is now trying to firesale off the AoS starter at 50% off. Part of that's holiday deals, but I don't think they've sold any in the last month either...

This is a big deal. I'd like to get a hand on the Khornate models.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
For the best of both worlds, set up your club in a pub function room.

That's the same conclusion I came to.

/it works surprisingly well

AoS hasn't died in my area because it never was alive to begin with.

Killing off WHFB was so negatively received it made nobody pick up any AoS.

Yeah, both stores in my area that carry models talked down about AoS right from the start. Good or bad, it was the goodwill killer for WHFB.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, both stores in my area that carry models talked down about AoS right from the start. Good or bad, it was the goodwill killer for WHFB.

Fair enough if they choose not to carry it, its their prerogative but if thats not the case then its just bad business.

 Bottle wrote:
^ Did you not see Archaon?


And we have seen fire slayers in the artwork. They are just normal slayers with red hair.

"Hair on fire" != "normal slayers with red hair"

 NAVARRO wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, both stores in my area that carry models talked down about AoS right from the start. Good or bad, it was the goodwill killer for WHFB.

Fair enough if they choose not to carry it, its their prerogative but if thats not the case then its just bad business.

It is also really bad business on GWs part if their stockists are choosing not to stock their product because of a perceived fault in it. It could be the best damn game out there but if everyone is bitter that it killed WHFB and not willing to put it on their shelves or have a demo game of it then GW has quite simply failed to capture people's attention and alienated potential customers.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, both stores in my area that carry models talked down about AoS right from the start. Good or bad, it was the goodwill killer for WHFB.

Fair enough if they choose not to carry it, its their prerogative but if thats not the case then its just bad business.

It is also really bad business on GWs part if their stockists are choosing not to stock their product because of a perceived fault in it. It could be the best damn game out there but if everyone is bitter that it killed WHFB and not willing to put it on their shelves or have a demo game of it then GW has quite simply failed to capture people's attention and alienated potential customers.

To be fair, it's not something that can always be laid strictly on GW's doorstep. Stockists need to understand that the players at their stores CAN impact their sales with their behavior/discussions.

The independents I've been to locally? They let their "veterans" who buy virtually nothing but snacks or the occasional small ticket item run roughshod over them and staff members do very little to engage their potential first time customers, often letting the veterans do it instead or sending the customer to talk to the veterans in the store.
To give an anecdotal example? Last time I was at one shop to pick up an Infinity blister(September), I overheard some of the (ex-)Fantasy(now Warmahordes) players basically mocking two people who had looked at the AoS starter and seemed genuinely interested in it, having been told by the staff to talk to soandso.

The usual crap of "It's so dumbed down it might as well be for kids" and "There's no point doing anything but spamming <insert power option here> because of the no points values" etc from people who were having the staff members hold them up as knowledgeable/reliable was enough to get customers who were willing to drop $120+ that day, in addition to whatever else they were planning on getting that day, to reconsider that purchase.

I was also highly entertained hearing one of the guys say that "There's no community playing AoS" when he very well knows there is a large number of people playing it not far away at the local GW. He was signed up for the Escalation League that we had running at the shop, showed up for one game and his previously ridiculous list of Dark Elf Witches and Cauldron of Blood got stomped in week one. We didn't see him again except for 40k, but even that has seen him not playing as much after the most recent books put the hurt down on his jetbike Eldar lists.

I think GW's policy's have a much larger impact on the player base than one or two upset veterans.

It was GW's decisions that upset many people and put others off. The fact that GW relies on these (now pissed off) veterans for word of mouth is a failing on GW's part.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think GW's policy's have a much larger impact on the player base than one or two upset veterans.

It was GW's decisions that upset many people and put others off. The fact that GW relies on these (now pissed off) veterans for word of mouth is a failing on GW's part.

Did you read what I posted, or just what you think I posted?

I'm saying that independents can't lay the blame for their inability to sell things at GW's feet. It's not unheard of for independents to have one or two guys that they considering "de facto employees" who might run events or whatever at the shop and steer potential customers towards them. That's a terrible idea when those people aren't actually interested in getting you sales but just badmouthing a system that they dislike.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think GW's policy's have a much larger impact on the player base than one or two upset veterans.

It was GW's decisions that upset many people and put others off. The fact that GW relies on these (now pissed off) veterans for word of mouth is a failing on GW's part.

Did you read what I posted, or just what you think I posted?

I'm saying that independents can't lay the blame for their inability to sell things at GW's feet. It's not unheard of for independents to have one or two guys that they considering "de facto employees" who might run events or whatever at the shop and steer potential customers towards them. That's a terrible idea when those people aren't actually interested in getting you sales but just badmouthing a system that they dislike.

No, no. I understood that. I'm saying the reason for those two de-facto employees badmouthing the game is laid at GW's feet.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The independents I've been to locally? They let their "veterans" who buy virtually nothing but snacks or the occasional small ticket item run roughshod over them and staff members do very little to engage their potential first time customers

I'm surprised they're still in business! We do have one store like that locally, but they are basically a Magic-sales store and allow miniature gamers to play there, but don't move much in the way of miniatures.

The other store is the exact opposite, though - completely engaging, several dedicated staff knowledgeable about miniature games, ready to talk about any small gaming system, organizing leagues, etc etc.

But the fact is AoS is a very hard sell right now... it's not cheap to get into, and outside of GW stores there usually isn't a play-group to point them to to get them plugged in (since the groups that were playing fantasy have either dissolved here or switched to KoW, or just aren't playing fantasy and focusing on other games while waiting to see how things shake out).

 RiTides wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The independents I've been to locally? They let their "veterans" who buy virtually nothing but snacks or the occasional small ticket item run roughshod over them and staff members do very little to engage their potential first time customers

I'm surprised they're still in business! We do have one store like that locally, but they are basically a Magic-sales store and allow miniature gamers to play there, but don't move much in the way of miniatures.

The other store is the exact opposite, though - completely engaging, several dedicated staff knowledgeable about miniature games, ready to talk about any small gaming system, organizing leagues, etc etc.

That's how my previous three stores have been.

 RiTides wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The independents I've been to locally? They let their "veterans" who buy virtually nothing but snacks or the occasional small ticket item run roughshod over them and staff members do very little to engage their potential first time customers

I'm surprised they're still in business! We do have one store like that locally, but they are basically a Magic-sales store and allow miniature gamers to play there, but don't move much in the way of miniatures.

The other store is the exact opposite, though - completely engaging, several dedicated staff knowledgeable about miniature games, ready to talk about any small gaming system, organizing leagues, etc etc.

The funny part is that this is one of the biggest stores, locally. The shop's space used to be a specialty supermarket so it's not a small place.

They make a lot of money via MTG and comics/RPG sales, and the person who does miniatures ordering apparently isn't that great. Nor do they really have too many people on staff that play--one guy who is trying really hard to push KoW, but that's failing miserably even with AoS replacing WHFB.

But the fact is AoS is a very hard sell right now... it's not cheap to get into, and outside of GW stores there usually isn't a play-group to point them to to get them plugged in (since the groups that were playing fantasy have either dissolved here or switched to KoW, or just aren't playing fantasy and focusing on other games while waiting to see how things shake out).

And that's why I found it so funny that the one guy kept harping on "there's nobody playing it". He signed up for an AoS Escalation League. He even attended the first week! It was only after he got tabled in week one by a Sudden Death that he started badmouthing the game. He was super pumped to play in the league, trashtalking everyone about how he might just play week one and week four...then he never even showed up past week one.

 RiTides wrote:


But the fact is AoS is a very hard sell right now... it's not cheap to get into, and outside of GW stores there usually isn't a play-group to point them to to get them plugged in (since the groups that were playing fantasy have either dissolved here or switched to KoW, or just aren't playing fantasy and focusing on other games while waiting to see how things shake out).

I'm not so sure that this has ever been different for any miniature game that takes hundreds of dollars (and, potentially, hours) commitment. A question to ask is: other than Warhammer 40k, what miniature games inspires people to go spend hundreds or thousands of dollars ** and keep coming back to spend hundreds or thousands more ** in the same order of magnitude of Magic cards?

This type of recurring sales and "upgrade treadmill" is pretty important to the continuing success of gaming stores, because otherwise, how do they get years and decades of sales out of the same people? One or two boardgames a year from someone isn't going to do it. The number of new wargamers who actually spend large dollars isn't huge. People buying snacks won't keep you in business in an environment where rent is getting pricey and the lowest paid employees cost $10-$15 an hour.

In my neck of the woods, I think that it basically boils down to 40k, WMH, and X-Wing -- plus the paint racks -- that keep miniatures part of the stores open. There are some really loyal Infinity customers, but they buy such a tiny amount of miniatures (and the miniatures themselves take up such a tiny amount of shelf space...) that I don't think it's a big impact.

Don't forget: influx of new customers. Without new customers any game will die.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And that's why I found it so funny that the one guy kept harping on "there's nobody playing it". He signed up for an AoS Escalation League. He even attended the first week! It was only after he got tabled in week one by a Sudden Death that he started badmouthing the game. He was super pumped to play in the league, trashtalking everyone about how he might just play week one and week four...then he never even showed up past week one.

Perhaps the "defacto employees" didn't want to tell new players to go to another store to game? I mean, that's an excellent way to lose repeat customers "don't come here and buy it, go to that other store" isn't really a nice thing for a regular to do to a store that treats them well.

But just out of interest, how did that story end? Did the new person buy nothing, or were they shown some other games to try? Perhaps a game with a community in the store? I assume the vet didn't just point at AOS and say "This is ", and walk away.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, both stores in my area that carry models talked down about AoS right from the start. Good or bad, it was the goodwill killer for WHFB.

Fair enough if they choose not to carry it, its their prerogative but if thats not the case then its just bad business.

It is also really bad business on GWs part if their stockists are choosing not to stock their product because of a perceived fault in it. It could be the best damn game out there but if everyone is bitter that it killed WHFB and not willing to put it on their shelves or have a demo game of it then GW has quite simply failed to capture people's attention and alienated potential customers.

To be fair, it's not something that can always be laid strictly on GW's doorstep. Stockists need to understand that the players at their stores CAN impact their sales with their behavior/discussions.

The independents I've been to locally? They let their "veterans" who buy virtually nothing but snacks or the occasional small ticket item run roughshod over them and staff members do very little to engage their potential first time customers, often letting the veterans do it instead or sending the customer to talk to the veterans in the store.
To give an anecdotal example? Last time I was at one shop to pick up an Infinity blister(September), I overheard some of the (ex-)Fantasy(now Warmahordes) players basically mocking two people who had looked at the AoS starter and seemed genuinely interested in it, having been told by the staff to talk to soandso.

The usual crap of "It's so dumbed down it might as well be for kids" and "There's no point doing anything but spamming <insert power option here> because of the no points values" etc from people who were having the staff members hold them up as knowledgeable/reliable was enough to get customers who were willing to drop $120+ that day, in addition to whatever else they were planning on getting that day, to reconsider that purchase.

I was also highly entertained hearing one of the guys say that "There's no community playing AoS" when he very well knows there is a large number of people playing it not far away at the local GW. He was signed up for the Escalation League that we had running at the shop, showed up for one game and his previously ridiculous list of Dark Elf Witches and Cauldron of Blood got stomped in week one. We didn't see him again except for 40k, but even that has seen him not playing as much after the most recent books put the hurt down on his jetbike Eldar lists.

I do believe you entirely missed my point. I was talking about the stores that aren't stocking AoS at all, the ones that never tried or else got the starter boxes and then quickly dumped the line.

If stores don't have the faith in a product to try it, or are overly eager to dismiss it after only receiving the first box set then there is a serious problem with the marketing and reputation of the company trying to get them to stock this produce. If disgruntled veterans made the stores not want to stock it you don't blame the veterans, you blame the people that disgruntled them and failed to raise any hype for the product.

All of this then happens before anyone can walk into a shop to buy AoS and be driven away, but even then it is GWs choice to focus on word of mouth advertising so it is on them if it bites them in the ass.

 Maddermax wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And that's why I found it so funny that the one guy kept harping on "there's nobody playing it". He signed up for an AoS Escalation League. He even attended the first week! It was only after he got tabled in week one by a Sudden Death that he started badmouthing the game. He was super pumped to play in the league, trashtalking everyone about how he might just play week one and week four...then he never even showed up past week one.

Perhaps the "defacto employees" didn't want to tell new players to go to another store to game? I mean, that's an excellent way to lose repeat customers "don't come here and buy it, go to that other store" isn't really a nice thing for a regular to do to a store that treats them well.

But just out of interest, how did that story end? Did the new person buy nothing, or were they shown some other games to try? Perhaps a game with a community in the store? I assume the vet didn't just point at AOS and say "This is ", and walk away.

They tried to push Warmahordes, which didn't interest the people, so no sale.

 Maddermax wrote:
But just out of interest, how did that story end? Did the new person buy nothing, or were they shown some other games to try? Perhaps a game with a community in the store? I assume the vet didn't just point at AOS and say "This is ", and walk away.

I am a bit curious about that too, I know when I tell someone a game sucks I follow it up with a suggestion that x game is better because of y and z.

And ninja'd, darn tablet touchpad

 MWHistorian wrote:
Don't forget: influx of new customers. Without new customers any game will die.

Well, attracting new customers is a big issue for GW.
Here we have seen no new players just older ones who came back from a break.

 jonolikespie wrote:

I do believe you entirely missed my point. I was talking about the stores that aren't stocking AoS at all, the ones that never tried or else got the starter boxes and then quickly dumped the line.

If stores don't have the faith in a product to try it, or are overly eager to dismiss it after only receiving the first box set then there is a serious problem with the marketing and reputation of the company trying to get them to stock this produce. If disgruntled veterans made the stores not want to stock it you don't blame the veterans, you blame the people that disgruntled them and failed to raise any hype for the product.

Tell that to the veterans who got stores to stock any number of games that sit and rot on shelves.

If a store follows JUST the demands/whims of veterans who don't buy crap? No, you absolutely don't blame the company of the product--you blame whoever you have in charge of ordering/stocking miniatures games for listening to people that they are (likely) "friends" with, who didn't stop to think "can we actually sell this?".

All of this then happens before anyone can walk into a shop to buy AoS and be driven away, but even then it is GWs choice to focus on word of mouth advertising so it is on them if it bites them in the ass.

If a store doesn't have an employee bothering to learn how to play a game system or setting out even an unpainted demo set? Yeah, it's on the store not the company whose game it is.

If you can't be bothered to be knowledgeable about your own product, that's on you.