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 Mymearan wrote:
it all depends on if you view it as a completely new game that hasn't found its footing or a failed WHFB9

Well said, and actually better said than you may have thought, considering you are contrasting those who aren't sure if the line has failed or succeeded with those who start by assuming it is a failure.

 Mymearan wrote:
Indeed.. I guess I could continue the simile by saying that the shipmaster decided it would be a good idea to start building the ship from the wrong end even I, a Stormcast player, am really annoyed by their release strategy.

Yeah, and as jono just said this is one I'm very interested to see because the Lizardmen release with no new models was a major turnoff to me - just rebranding the same models as "now in spaaaaace" (in the case of Lizzies) just doesn't do it for me.

But sweet new dwarfs would be much more tempting! If it's just a character, though, that won't be nearly enough imo... so hopefully there will at least be a few new units to show the direction they are headed in for their more traditional fantasy elements (which, lets be honest, is what most people play in fantasy, the sigmarines and khorne warriors are just too similar to one another to carry the line).

 Mymearan wrote:
it all depends on if you view it as a completely new game that hasn't found its footing or a failed WHFB9.

That, I believe, is just one of the problems AoS encountered - people thought it was Warhammer Next. Hell, I thought it was, too. It's very definitely a new game system completely. I think GW's mistake was releasing warscrolls for backwards compatibility with old Warhammer armies. Warhammer 8 should have been left to ride out the year and die it's long overdue death, while Age of Sigmar was introduced as a brand new game with Stormcast Eternals and Khorne dudes, with the slow release of these rebranded factions and new books and new models. Too many people were upset because either a) they loved Warhammer 8 and it was "replaced" by AoS or b) they didn't care about Warhammer 8 but wanted to jump on the bandwagon from (a).

My speculation regarding seraphon was, maybe the 8th Ed. lizardman release went really poorly relative to the expense of updating the line with new models, in which case the company would be less likely to invest more when reboxing the line with round bases and putting out the battletome.

 RiTides wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
Indeed.. I guess I could continue the simile by saying that the shipmaster decided it would be a good idea to start building the ship from the wrong end even I, a Stormcast player, am really annoyed by their release strategy.

Yeah, and as jono just said this is one I'm very interested to see because the Lizardmen release with no new models was a major turnoff to me - just rebranding the same models as "now in spaaaaace" (in the case of Lizzies) just doesn't do it for me.

That's not the fluff at all. The lizardmen are all dead. The Seraphon fluff is one of the coolest fluff things in AoS, which is saying a lot, because AoS is the coolest fluff GW has done since the first dozen Horus Heresy novels.

 judgedoug wrote:
Warhammer 8 should have been left to ride out the year and die it's long overdue death, while Age of Sigmar was introduced as a brand new game with Stormcast Eternals and Khorne dudes

It is pretty interesting when you look back on how there was this very long period of time that the company explicitly labeled THE END TIMES (for crying out loud!) and there were, throughout that period and IIRC a bit before, all these rumors about how the next incarnation of Fantasy was going to be a major, major overhaul. One can guess, the idea at GW was to transition between WHFB and AoS as a narrative. The product line itself was part of the storytelling.

Manchu wrote:You are using strawman incorrectly.

You equated points systems in games to a mythical thing desired by superstitious people.

Close enough.

You won't see as much dissatisfaction about any game not produced by GW on this site or other GW-centric sites because less people are talking about them.

What makes you think I only read Dakka, or GW-centric forums? Even on forums that complain about certain games, I don't see such a proportion complaining about them. Especially not about the common themes of GW complaints.

(E.g. the thing about WLG - I assume Warlord Games - is that if you don't like Bolt Action, or Black Powder, or Hail Caesar, or disruptive changes made to them, or the models available for them, you've got a bit more freedom to search out other WWII, musket, or ancients/medieval games. Possibly even a bit more knowledge of them. Kings of War has started to raise that kind of concept or culture to the general awareness of people wanting to game in the Warhammer setting, but even then Mantic's alternate models don't seem to be an easy alternative.)

Yes, that goal post has always been there (although it has been consistently ignored) given the sample has always been self-selected.

Nnnope. Pretty sure nobody else has tried to argue that the appearance of AoS's poor sales is because this is a 40K site. And despite the name, that's arguable.

That brings up strange implications, or possibly inferences. Are you suggesting that anti-AoS sentiment, and reports of said poor sales, are down to 40K players?

 Vermis wrote:
Are you suggesting that anti-AoS sentiment, and reports of said poor sales, are down to 40K players?

First, apologies for ignoring the rest of your post. It really seems we are talking directly past each other on those points with little hope of getting back on the same page. But I can answer your question: No. What I am suggesting is, Dakka Dakka attracts a certain demographic of gamers largely characterized by interest in pick-up play so that it is perfectly natural both that there is a low opinion of AoS as a game among our posters and also that our posters are more likely to perceive that AoS is a failure as a product line.

 judgedoug wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
Indeed.. I guess I could continue the simile by saying that the shipmaster decided it would be a good idea to start building the ship from the wrong end even I, a Stormcast player, am really annoyed by their release strategy.

Yeah, and as jono just said this is one I'm very interested to see because the Lizardmen release with no new models was a major turnoff to me - just rebranding the same models as "now in spaaaaace" (in the case of Lizzies) just doesn't do it for me.

That's not the fluff at all. The lizardmen are all dead. The Seraphon fluff is one of the coolest fluff things in AoS, which is saying a lot, because AoS is the coolest fluff GW has done since the first dozen Horus Heresy novels.

They are summoned memories. In a game that already had annoyed people with the idea that the new poster boys don't die but respawn and the bad guys had a literally endless horde they really did not need their 3rd faction to also be unkillable.

Manchu wrote:

 Vermis wrote:
Are you suggesting that anti-AoS sentiment, and reports of said poor sales, are down to 40K players?

First, apologies for ignoring the rest of your post. It really seems we are talking directly past each other on those points with little hope of getting back on the same page. But I can answer your question: No. What I am suggesting is, Dakka Dakka attracts a certain demographic of gamers largely characterized by interest in pick-up play so that it is perfectly natural both that there is a low opinion of AoS as a game among our posters and also that our posters are more likely to perceive that AoS is a failure as a product line.

I can agree with this. For many in my group, historical scenario-based gaming is where it's at, so points values are totally irrelevant to many of those members anyway. then there's me, and I fancy myself a tournament gamer occasionally (especially with Kings of War), but I also love playing historical scenarios, etc. So pick up and play points games quite literally do not matter to me, as there are plenty of alternatives that I freely enjoy (Bolt Action and GoA being the current favorites). However, AoS is simple, fun, and scratches the itch of Saturday Morning Cartoon Heroic Deeds that Warhammer 8 was turning into anyway. And a game can be finished in 1/8 of the time of any edition of WHFB as well

Manchu wrote:
My speculation regarding seraphon was, maybe the 8th Ed. lizardman release went really poorly relative to the expense of updating the line with new models, in which case the company would be less likely to invest more when reboxing the line with round bases and putting out the battletome.

As Mymearan said, their release strategy is baffling - if Lizardmen didn't sell well, why release it as the very first race after the starter set? That would be crazy! Even without models, it took up a release slot in their timeline... and as a result they won't have released any non-Stormcast / non-Khorne AoS models in their launch year.

Regarding telling a narrative with End Times - the same "anecdotal" evidence, but by all accounts I saw End Times was a big success - people loved seeing the narrative advance and the books were really hard to get hold of, along with some of the sweet large kits. The problem, of course, is that after people invested in those expensive books and models, they felt like they had the rug pulled out from under them. Everyone knew a big change was coming to fantasy, but I think it's safe to say AoS surpassed anyone's expectations for how different it truly was.

Judgedoug - I was being a little facetious about the Lizardmen in space and actually am not totally opposed to their background, although I think I would have preferred their warriors to not just be dreams/memories but things like Chakax - the last of their race guarding the precious Slann. Their background was always really cool I think, but the problem with their place in the release order is that there is still no attachment to models dying, they can just make more (like the Stormcasts as well), so from what I've seen people aren't yet getting drawn in to that background like they were quite rabidly (in my experience) for the End Times narrative.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
That's not the fluff at all. The lizardmen are all dead. The Seraphon fluff is one of the coolest fluff things in AoS, which is saying a lot, because AoS is the coolest fluff GW has done since the first dozen Horus Heresy novels.

They are summoned memories. In a game that already had annoyed people with the idea that the new poster boys don't die but respawn and the bad guys had a literally endless horde they really did not need their 3rd faction to also be unkillable.

The single most appealing thing about the AoS fluff is that with each book, the storyline advances. Things are happening, and a timeline is progressing.

It is not the last minute of the last century of the last millennia constantly forever, with no storyline advancing. It is not the Old World where the Storm of Chaos happens and then gets retconned. As far as I can tell, it is the only GW game, ever, where the actual plot progresses, other than retcons.
In 40k and Warhammer Fantasy Battles, all armies had an understood unlimited number of guys because nothing was ever going to happen to the storyline that would ever put sales of models in danger.

I agree advancing the story is awesome - that's why people loved End Times, too

OgreChubbs wrote:
I think the problem is the main rules not the warscrolls. Each unit has good rules and makeup and would work well in a system they all seem to be based off of.

The problem is look through the war scrolls alone, they look fine. Then when trying to add them to the starter box main rules and all goes to hell. There is no way to balance what to take and not to. The main rules are lacking and seem based of the starter box not a whole gaming system.

Indeed, how would you make an army list? You don't see it coming.

Manchu wrote:LOL I included that example precisely to see if someone would un-ironically throw it back in my face.

Ah-HA! I wanted you to pick out the double-standards in my post!

Manchu wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
it all depends on if you view it as a completely new game that hasn't found its footing or a failed WHFB9

Well said, and actually better said than you may have thought, considering you are contrasting those who aren't sure if the line has failed or succeeded with those who start by assuming it is a failure.

Manchu wrote:It is pretty interesting when you look back on how there was this very long period of time that the company explicitly labeled THE END TIMES (for crying out loud!) and there were, throughout that period and IIRC a bit before, all these rumors about how the next incarnation of Fantasy was going to be a major, major overhaul.

Assumptions, eh? I always thought that AoS was a completely new game, for the reasons you describe. I was even willing to give it the benefit of the doubt a couple of times (heck, I made a 100+ mile round trip just to see if I could nab the WD with the free sigmarine on the cover [I didn't]) and after it was released and I decided I wasn't going to bother, I still thought it looked like it was going to be a success based on all the excitement about it.

So no, some of us didn't start out from a position of assuming failure, even before it appeared.

AoS is doing a fine job persuading us, all by itself.

Argh, too much internet bickering. Sorry Deadnight, I saw your response. I'll have to look at it later.

 RiTides wrote:
Judgedoug - I was being a little facetious about the Lizardmen in space and actually am not totally opposed to their background, although I think I would have preferred their warriors to not just be dreams/memories but things like Chakax

I like it. Can't keep those spawning pools from drying up for however long after rocketing off from The Old World. And as a long long long time 40k fan (over 20 years now?) it made me gleeful that the ol' spacefaring Slann bouncing around in Warhammer 3red edition with shuriken pistols and power gloves were returning form whence they came - back to the stars.

 RiTides wrote:
if Lizardmen didn't sell well, why release it as the very first race after the starter set?

If you don't plan on releasing new models for a faction re-launch, then it is a relatively cheap and easy release in an otherwise busy season.

 RiTides wrote:
Everyone knew a big change was coming to fantasy, but I think it's safe to say AoS surpassed anyone's expectations for how different it truly was.

Agreed. No one expected points would go away. It was totally shocking. I remember personally thinking they would release something about points eventually.

 RiTides wrote:
no attachment to models dying

Has this ever been a selling point at all? Are you talking about campaign play or something?

 judgedoug wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
That's not the fluff at all. The lizardmen are all dead. The Seraphon fluff is one of the coolest fluff things in AoS, which is saying a lot, because AoS is the coolest fluff GW has done since the first dozen Horus Heresy novels.

They are summoned memories. In a game that already had annoyed people with the idea that the new poster boys don't die but respawn and the bad guys had a literally endless horde they really did not need their 3rd faction to also be unkillable.

The single most appealing thing about the AoS fluff is that with each book, the storyline advances. Things are happening, and a timeline is progressing.

It is not the last minute of the last century of the last millennia constantly forever, with no storyline advancing. It is not the Old World where the Storm of Chaos happens and then gets retconned. As far as I can tell, it is the only GW game, ever, where the actual plot progresses, other than retcons.
In 40k and Warhammer Fantasy Battles, all armies had an understood unlimited number of guys because nothing was ever going to happen to the storyline that would ever put sales of models in danger.

It's very easy to make a storyline advance where the "fleshed out" factions have infinitly reusable resources for war (Chaos/Sigmarines/Lizardmen) and there is an infinity of land to pseudo-conquer - this is actually one of the most pressing matters to be explained by AoS fluff - if the realms are infinite or not.

Who cares if Brother Sigmarite Bob/Seraphon Saurus Steve gets a sword through his gut if he'll be back in a week from now? Who cares if the X or Y peninsula is lost if that's just a grain int he infinity of Z realm?

There is no worth to a plot that advances without any palpable consequences are drawn from it.

 Vermis wrote:
double-standards in my post

Like the term strawman, you are using double standard incorrectly.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
There is no worth to a plot that advances without any palpable consequences are drawn from it.

You must loathe 40k. And it seems like you are focusing on fluff rather than gaming. The WM/H fluff seems right up your alley.

I mean, compare the importance of the plot advancements in ET compared to the AoS plot advancement?

And why was it that ET caused way more of a reaction? Because the players cared for the characters, for the factions. Every man dying, every dwarf hold falling was a step closer to the End.

There is no such thing in a setting like AoS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:
You must loathe 40k. And it seems like you are focusing on fluff rather than gaming. The WM/H fluff seems right up your alley.

And what does 40k/WM/H have to do with this discussion, again?

Edit: As for my stances on the mechanics of Aos, I am sure you can find them on one of the more heated arguments in that specific forum. But to cut it short - I find it simplistic and completely inadequate.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
And what does 40k/WM/H have to do with this discussion, again?

AoS is a 40k-ization of Fantasy as a setting. Previously, Fantasy was this very finite setting where plot progression was very important, like it is in the WM/H fluff. But now, there is all this space where really just about anything could happen, including the games all of us are playing, just like in 40k.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
That's not the fluff at all. The lizardmen are all dead. The Seraphon fluff is one of the coolest fluff things in AoS, which is saying a lot, because AoS is the coolest fluff GW has done since the first dozen Horus Heresy novels.

They are summoned memories. In a game that already had annoyed people with the idea that the new poster boys don't die but respawn and the bad guys had a literally endless horde they really did not need their 3rd faction to also be unkillable.

The single most appealing thing about the AoS fluff is that with each book, the storyline advances. Things are happening, and a timeline is progressing.

It is not the last minute of the last century of the last millennia constantly forever, with no storyline advancing. It is not the Old World where the Storm of Chaos happens and then gets retconned. As far as I can tell, it is the only GW game, ever, where the actual plot progresses, other than retcons.
In 40k and Warhammer Fantasy Battles, all armies had an understood unlimited number of guys because nothing was ever going to happen to the storyline that would ever put sales of models in danger.

It's very easy to make a storyline advance where the "fleshed out" factions have infinitly reusable resources for war (Chaos/Sigmarines/Lizardmen) and there is an infinity of land to pseudo-conquer - this is actually one of the most pressing matters to be explained by AoS fluff - if the realms are infinite or not.

Who cares if Brother Sigmarite Bob/Seraphon Saurus Steve gets a sword through his gut if he'll be back in a week from now? Who cares if the X or Y peninsula is lost if that's just a grain int he infinity of Z realm?

There is no worth to a plot that advances without any palpable consequences are drawn from it.

Aye.

I personally love the advancing story behind Warmahordes because it is a well fleshed out setting with established characters I can care about and, and this is the big point to me, each book talks about all the factions, so I have a reason to get it no matter what I play.

The fact that the advancing storyline offers nothing to say, a Dark Elf player, yet is terrible. I have no reason to buy the current books yet. If the next book came out as all about the Dark Elves I am behind on the story and suddenly have a huge pile of very expensive books I need to catch up. It seems like it would have put a lot of people between a rock and a hard place there.

Manchu wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
And what does 40k/WM/H have to do with this discussion, again?

AoS is a 40k-ization of Fantasy as a setting. Previously, Fantasy was this very finite setting where plot progression was very important, like it is in the WM/H fluff. But now, there is all this space where really just about anything could happen, including the games all of us are playing, just like in 40k.

Again, what does it have to do with this discussion? This thread is about AoS and I am expressing my opinions about it, adressing judgedoug's comment about plot progression when compared to FB and how it matters. I couldn't care less about WM/H and I don't really see why you need to point me towards it

Manchu wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
if Lizardmen didn't sell well, why release it as the very first race after the starter set?

If you don't plan on releasing new models for a faction re-launch, then it is a relatively cheap and easy release in an otherwise busy season.

Cheap and easy doesn't mean you should do it - again, look at the reactions to AoS so far, contrasted to some of the hopeful posts about the dwarf release, even from AoS fans. They really need to diversify, and releasing a faction without new models so early on certainly did not help! Hopefully the dwarf release fixes this, though

Regarding things being immortal, I was referring to drawing people into the background - people get very attached to heroes and struggles that matter, and right now the factions are a bit faceless since the Sigmarines can reincarnate (although there is a bit of cool background to that) and the Lizardmen are memories/dreams, so also a bit faceless. I'm hoping for a famous dwarf warriors leading his flaming slayers into battle, personally

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Again, what does it have to do with this discussion?

We had been talking about the contrast between End Times and AoS. If there is a setting spectrum from finite to infinite possibility, you would have WM/H toward the former and 40k toward the latter. From End Times to AoS, Warhammer Fantasy made a tremendous leap from the WM/H part of the spectrum to the 40k part. Some folks, like yourself, clearly see this as a flaw but many others see it as a feature. It is definitely a feature of 40k and one the company has been keen to sell over the decades. GW has been less committed to the idea of plot progression, with a few notable exceptions such as (most recently) End Times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
again, look at the reactions to AoS so far

I bought the Seraphon book. Actually it was the first AoS book I bought. I am not even sure I will ever have a seraphon army but the book was so cool I had to have it. That's my reaction.

Yeah, End Times was awesome and (again) almost universally well received. Hopefully that guides some of their decisions going forward with plot progression

Edit: When I'm talking about reactions, I'm referring to general overall reaction (such as when people say a movie released to "high praise" or "rave reviews"). End Times definitely had such a reception! Seraphon did not because there were no models to go along with the book... but again, hopefully they fix that with the dwarf release!

I dunno, I remember a lot of complaining about End Times on this very site and for me personally I just totally dropped out of caring about WHFB during that whole period, not that I ever cared too much about it before. I saw the stuff sit around on shelves but mostly only come in for special orders. And I know my friend just bought all the books for pennies on the dollar when Game Parlor closed.

I think there's a real nostalgia for End Times now people know what the alternative was!

Oh, there's always complaining about GW releases

I guess it's hard to know how to discuss it with you, but I think it's safe to say the reaction to it was very positive (or at least hopeful?). People were concerned about rules, where it was going next, etc... but the books sold like hotcakes in general (any particular store will always have leftover stock, of course). There was tons of chatter about what "9th edition" would look like coming out of it, and they generated a lot more buzz than they had in the years leading up to it.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think there's a real nostalgia for End Times now people know what the alternative was!

Hahahaha that too

 RiTides wrote:
When I'm talking about reactions, I'm referring to general overall reaction (such as when people say a movie released to "high praise" or "rave reviews")

I get what you meant, I am trying to get you to realize that you are mixing up your own perception with an objective fact. Unlike with films, we don't have GW review aggregators. We don't even have proper GW reviewers, for the most part.

 RiTides wrote:
it's hard to know how to discuss it with you

whew likewise!

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think there's a real nostalgia for End Times now people know what the alternative was!

100% correct and not just for End Times but also and especially Eighth Edition.