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sirlynchmob wrote:

 goblinzz wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
If you have a unit that is outflanking or in reserve and for whatever reason you can't make it on the board because your opponent lined up along your table edge, do you stay in reserve or are you removed as a causality.? The BRB says nothing about what happens. So I would say they die. Since a lot of rules say that if a model can't be placed it is destroyed, I'd apply the same rule here

neither actually as we see on pg 136 moving on from reserve, second paragraph.

move them on as far as you can and they can hang over the table edge if need be. so with 2" between the blocking models, you could probably get a 1/4" of the base onto the table before getting into 1" of either and just place a marker so every one knows that where the model is.

I would be hugely unhappy with this, and do not believe it is legal. IF any part of a model's base, or vehicles hull leaves the table, then that unit must leave the table. Having your land raider with a corner on the board, and then saying that it is firing from past the edge of the table is total nonsense.

It might make for other fun issues, but that is the RAW. you must move onto the table, and you are told what to do if the whole model doesn't fit onto the table. I cited where the rule is at, give it a read when you get the chance.

Sorry man, I totally missed your page reference. I love that falling back, and coming on from reserves, which should logically be treated the same way, aren't...

jeffersonian000 wrote:Two points, then I'll drop the mic again:

Arriving from Reserve
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

The underlined in both quotes make my case. If a unit cannot be deployed from reserve, it is removed as a casualty. While you can make an argument that the second passage in question deals only with pre-game set up, it does gives us a precedent for what can occur while deploying a unit during a game turn, as noted in the first quote.

The game don't end because one person can't move their models. The game ends because one person has no models on the table at the end of the game turn. Movement phase, can't deploy models on to the table, those models are lost. No Psychic phase, no Shooting phase, no Assault phase, game turn over, sudden death victory goes to the player with models on the table.

SJ

Umm... no. That is taking the sentences out of context in the second quote. It only deals with deploying units in the Deployment Phase, it has nothing to do with units arriving from Reserves in the middle of the game.

Preparing Reserves states that you can choose to put some units in to Reserves instead of Deploying them. Then if you cannot deploy them, you put them in to Reserves. EXCEPT if you cannot deploy them during Deployment, and put them in Reserves, but the unit cannot move after being Deployed, that unit is automatically destroyed.

Even if you chose to recreate the Kroot/White Scars fiasco (good luck), the White Scars could move after being deployed, as they were not immobile, and it was after Preparing for Battle, so the Preparing Reserves rule is no longer in force.

Yet again Jeffersonian has to pick the mic back up,again, after another failure to read the rules they quoted.

It wasn't impossible to deploy them during the deployment phase of preparing for battle. It was entirely possible, therefore they cannot be destroyed.

This is getting quite silly now...

Jeffersonian - any rule to backup your stance, or will you now accept you were wrong, and recover some grace?

Nos, can you cite a single rule to support your side of the argument? We both know that's a no, don't we.

SJ

Well, yes, he's going to be unable to provide a rule that says 'This rule from the Preparing Reserves rule that has nothing whatsoever to do with how units arrive from reserve should not be taken as being relevant to units arriving from reserve'...

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Nos, can you cite a single rule to support your side of the argument? We both know that's a no, don't we.

SJ

That still doesn't make your assessment accurate. Applying a standard that specifically addresses only deployment to the situation of a unit coming in from Reserves AFTER deployment is inaccurate unless specifically stated.

Moving On From Reserves carries no such stipulation. Outflank carries no such stipulation. The only method of arriving from Reserves which carries a "death" penalty is Deep Strike's Mishap.

Blocked Deployment Edges are not considered by the game at this present time. And let's face it, it is a real challenge to do that with all but the most ignorrant opponents these days. You need to cover 6-8 feet in order to completely block a non-Deep Striking arrival from Reserves, and most people will not give you the chance like that White Scars player, nor be prepared with that many Infiltrators at the same time like that Kroot player.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Nos, can you cite a single rule to support your side of the argument? We both know that's a no, don't we.

SJ

Erm, yes? That's my point

The game halts, as there is no rule to cover this.

You are forced to bring on reserves, but cannot do so. You cannot progress past this point, so you never hit the end of the movement phase, never mind the end of the game turn.

So after yet another attempt where you have had to pick the mic back up, will you concede that there are no rules supporting YOUR contention that this situation is covered in the rules?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Nos, can you cite a single rule to support your side of the argument? We both know that's a no, don't we.

SJ

Erm, yes? That's my point

The game halts, as there is no rule to cover this.

You are forced to bring on reserves, but cannot do so. You cannot progress past this point, so you never hit the end of the movement phase, never mind the end of the game turn.

So after yet another attempt where you have had to pick the mic back up, will you concede that there are no rules supporting YOUR contention that this situation is covered in the rules?

seeing as there no rule that states you halt a game if you can't get past a phase, I would have to disagree with you. While there are plenty of rules that state that if you cannot place a model it is destroyed I would apply the same rule here, since you cannot place your models then they are dead.
Also these people quoting a rule about reserves and marking where they would be, that rule has nothing to do with me blocking you, you can't come on at all, and since the rules don't say that you stay in reserve then your dead, and plus if your that bad of a player to allow that to happen to you then I don't think you deserve to have them alive lol (that last part wasn't directed towards you, just a general statement)

Dman137 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Nos, can you cite a single rule to support your side of the argument? We both know that's a no, don't we.

SJ

Erm, yes? That's my point

The game halts, as there is no rule to cover this.

You are forced to bring on reserves, but cannot do so. You cannot progress past this point, so you never hit the end of the movement phase, never mind the end of the game turn.

So after yet another attempt where you have had to pick the mic back up, will you concede that there are no rules supporting YOUR contention that this situation is covered in the rules?

seeing as there no rule that states you halt a game if you can't get past a phase, I would have to disagree with you. While there are plenty of rules that state that if you cannot place a model it is destroyed I would apply the same rule here, since you cannot place your models then they are dead.
Also these people quoting a rule about reserves and marking where they would be, that rule has nothing to do with me blocking you, you can't come on at all, and since the rules don't say that you stay in reserve then your dead, and plus if your that bad of a player to allow that to happen to you then I don't think you deserve to have them alive lol (that last part wasn't directed towards you, just a general statement)

Not past a phase. Reread what was wrote, and be more careful with your wording

You have a required action that must complete. You have no permission to ignore that action. It must complete.

It cannot complete

Cite your permission to ignore this required action. CIte how you are allowed to skip bringing reserves on.

Your disagreemetn is noted, but as it has no rules backing it is ignored as irrelevant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Nos, can you cite a single rule to support your side of the argument? We both know that's a no, don't we.

SJ

Erm, yes? That's my point

The game halts, as there is no rule to cover this.

You are forced to bring on reserves, but cannot do so. You cannot progress past this point, so you never hit the end of the movement phase, never mind the end of the game turn.

So after yet another attempt where you have had to pick the mic back up, will you concede that there are no rules supporting YOUR contention that this situation is covered in the rules?

seeing as there no rule that states you halt a game if you can't get past a phase, I would have to disagree with you. While there are plenty of rules that state that if you cannot place a model it is destroyed I would apply the same rule here, since you cannot place your models then they are dead.
Also these people quoting a rule about reserves and marking where they would be, that rule has nothing to do with me blocking you, you can't come on at all, and since the rules don't say that you stay in reserve then your dead, and plus if your that bad of a player to allow that to happen to you then I don't think you deserve to have them alive lol (that last part wasn't directed towards you, just a general statement)

Not past a phase. Reread what was wrote, and be more careful with your wording

You have a required action that must complete. You have no permission to ignore that action. It must complete.

It cannot complete

Cite your permission to ignore this required action. CIte how you are allowed to skip bringing reserves on.

Your disagreemetn is noted, but as it has no rules backing it is ignored as irrelevant.

I understand what you mean, but at the same time where is the rule that states the game is at a stalemate.? to me id say there dead since they can't come on, but some people might rule that they stay in reserves

Dman137 wrote:
I understand what you mean, but at the same time where is the rule that states the game is at a stalemate.? to me id say there dead since they can't come on, but some people might rule that they stay in reserves

There is no rules support for either of those options though, since were making up house rules now, you could just allow them to come on their table edge. As unrealistic as blocking and entire table edge is blocking two is magnitudes more unrealistic. Or as all your models are on one side of the table, just let them come on the other side.

Because we do know, they MUST come on the table. As that is the base rule I believe we should work towards that goal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and NOS the game does not freeze, we will complete the movement phase and we have 2 very good backup rules to fall back to to solve this dilemma.

Dman137 wrote:

I understand what you mean, but at the same time where is the rule that states the game is at a stalemate.? to me id say there dead since they can't come on, but some people might rule that they stay in reserves

And again, that is where you are wrong, Nos. The BRB does tell us how this specific situation ends. No models on the table for one player equals Sudden Death Victory for the other player. We are even told how to handle units that cannot deploy, they are removed as casualties. Your assumption that the game stalls is a How You Would Play It, not a break down in the rules that causes the game to break.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
We are even told how to handle units that cannot deploy, they are removed as casualties.

Do you have a proper quote on that? All you've quoted is the rule for deployment. Coming On From Reserves mentions nothing regarding that.

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
We are even told how to handle units that cannot deploy, they are removed as casualties.

Do you have a proper quote on that? All you've quoted is the rule for deployment. Coming On From Reserves mentions nothing regarding that.

can you quote a rule saying otherwise.? Every other rule in 40k where a model can't be place it is dead. Same thing would apply here and everyone can argue that but that's the most fair way to do it. And like I said before if you allow yourself to be in that situation then it's your own fault and you should be rewarded for stupidity

Dman137 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
We are even told how to handle units that cannot deploy, they are removed as casualties.

Do you have a proper quote on that? All you've quoted is the rule for deployment. Coming On From Reserves mentions nothing regarding that.

can you quote a rule saying otherwise.? Every other rule in 40k where a model can't be place it is dead. Same thing would apply here and everyone can argue that but that's the most fair way to do it. And like I said before if you allow yourself to be in that situation then it's your own fault and you should be rewarded for stupidity

pg 136 moving on from reserve, second paragraph.

You must place your models as far on the table as you can. so even a fraction of a mm and you're on the table, trying to kill those models is against RAW.

Dman137 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
We are even told how to handle units that cannot deploy, they are removed as casualties.

Do you have a proper quote on that? All you've quoted is the rule for deployment. Coming On From Reserves mentions nothing regarding that.

can you quote a rule saying otherwise.? Every other rule in 40k where a model can't be place it is dead. Same thing would apply here and everyone can argue that but that's the most fair way to do it. And like I said before if you allow yourself to be in that situation then it's your own fault and you should be rewarded for stupidity

That is incorrect. In many cases when a model cannot be placed, it either has to limit its movement or goes in to Mishap. The times where it is "destroyed"/"removed as a casualty" are all specifically delineated as such. Coming On From Reserves provides no such stipulation.

Let's look at those conditions which cause inability to deploy to kill the model.

First is deployment, where if a model cannot move for Deployment, but forced in to Reserves, it is automatically destroyed. The ability to force this situation is almost impossible, and usually regulated to Fortification Role units.

Deep Striking from Reserves where a unit cannot deploy because of model placement causes it to Mishap. In this case, it is 1/6 to destroy the unit, the other results either cause a delay by putting them in to Ongoing Reserves, or the opponent placing the unit.

Disembarking from a Wrecked Transport or being placed after a Transport Explodes! In these cases, the Transport must be surrounded sufficiently that an Embarked model cannot be placed in base contact with the Transport or the unit is of sufficient size as the surrounding unit provides literally no room.

I believe there is one for Falling Back, too, but in any case, it would still specifically state as such.

Where is it in Coming On From Reserves? For Outflank?

I'm not saying the rules have an answer for this situation, in fact, I'm stating quite the opposite. There are no rules for this situation, so assuming it is automatically dead is quite presumptive. In fact, there is as much case for it going in to Ongoing Reserves as there is for being automatically dead.

I'm not saying the rules have an answer for this situation, in fact, I'm stating quite the opposite. There are no rules for this situation, so assuming it is automatically dead is quite presumptive. In fact, there is as much case for it going in to Ongoing Reserves as there is for being automatically dead.

Then make that case. The whole "game broke, everyone go home" stance is a non-stance, as it has no meaning in a rules discussion.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

I'm not saying the rules have an answer for this situation, in fact, I'm stating quite the opposite. There are no rules for this situation, so assuming it is automatically dead is quite presumptive. In fact, there is as much case for it going in to Ongoing Reserves as there is for being automatically dead.

Then make that case. The whole "game broke, everyone go home" stance is a non-stance, as it has no meaning in a rules discussion.

SJ

I see that type of argument as invoking the rule that must not be named in YMDC. It's what they're trying to say without actually saying it. I highly doubt anyone has had a game end due to a broken rule.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
We are even told how to handle units that cannot deploy, they are removed as casualties.

Do you have a proper quote on that? All you've quoted is the rule for deployment. Coming On From Reserves mentions nothing regarding that.

can you quote a rule saying otherwise.? Every other rule in 40k where a model can't be place it is dead. Same thing would apply here and everyone can argue that but that's the most fair way to do it. And like I said before if you allow yourself to be in that situation then it's your own fault and you should be rewarded for stupidity

pg 136 moving on from reserve, second paragraph.

You must place your models as far on the table as you can. so even a fraction of a mm and you're on the table, trying to kill those models is against RAW.

if I'm lined up on your edge 1" apart, there is no way for you to even place your model, and on top of that show me in that paragraph where it states that you go back into reserves if you can't be placed. The rules are you can't come within a inch of my model so since you can't even move on at all and it doesn't say you go back into reserves then the only other option is you die. And if you're on the boat of "oh well if that's the case then I would pick up my models and never play you again" then that's even worse because people refuse to see error in there tactics from lack of play or just plain refusal of playing better players. Like I've already said, if you put yourself in that situation then your at your own fault and there for should not be idiot from anything. Just learn not to do it again lol it's not hard

Dman137 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
We are even told how to handle units that cannot deploy, they are removed as casualties.

Do you have a proper quote on that? All you've quoted is the rule for deployment. Coming On From Reserves mentions nothing regarding that.

can you quote a rule saying otherwise.? Every other rule in 40k where a model can't be place it is dead. Same thing would apply here and everyone can argue that but that's the most fair way to do it. And like I said before if you allow yourself to be in that situation then it's your own fault and you should be rewarded for stupidity

pg 136 moving on from reserve, second paragraph.

You must place your models as far on the table as you can. so even a fraction of a mm and you're on the table, trying to kill those models is against RAW.

if I'm lined up on your edge 1" apart, there is no way for you to even place your model, and on top of that show me in that paragraph where it states that you go back into reserves if you can't be placed. The rules are you can't come within a inch of my model so since you can't even move on at all and it doesn't say you go back into reserves then the only other option is you die. And if you're on the boat of "oh well if that's the case then I would pick up my models and never play you again" then that's even worse because people refuse to see error in there tactics from lack of play or just plain refusal of playing better players. Like I've already said, if you put yourself in that situation then your at your own fault and there for should not be idiot from anything. Just learn not to do it again lol it's not hard

Wow, you've read nothing that I've written. Nice rant though, to bad you have no rules to support any of it.

Go place your models 1" apart on the table edge, and you will see it creates a gap where the models coming on from reserves can occupy.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
And again, that is where you are wrong, Nos. The BRB does tell us how this specific situation ends. No models on the table for one player equals Sudden Death Victory for the other player. We are even told how to handle units that cannot deploy, they are removed as casualties. Your assumption that the game stalls is a How You Would Play It, not a break down in the rules that causes the game to break.

SJ

So, instead of accepting with some semblance of grace, you will yet again gloss over the utter dissection of your attempted argument?

1) at the end of any game turn this is true. As you well know, having quoted this rule before.
2) this occurs when preparing reserves. And only for units which were impossible to deploy. Neither of which is the case here.

Just stop. You cannot contribute to this thread currently.

Mark your posts hywpi and argue that basis all you want. You have shown no capability to actually argue rules in an honest fashion, however.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
We are even told how to handle units that cannot deploy, they are removed as casualties.

Do you have a proper quote on that? All you've quoted is the rule for deployment. Coming On From Reserves mentions nothing regarding that.

can you quote a rule saying otherwise.? Every other rule in 40k where a model can't be place it is dead. Same thing would apply here and everyone can argue that but that's the most fair way to do it. And like I said before if you allow yourself to be in that situation then it's your own fault and you should be rewarded for stupidity

pg 136 moving on from reserve, second paragraph.

You must place your models as far on the table as you can. so even a fraction of a mm and you're on the table, trying to kill those models is against RAW.

if I'm lined up on your edge 1" apart, there is no way for you to even place your model, and on top of that show me in that paragraph where it states that you go back into reserves if you can't be placed. The rules are you can't come within a inch of my model so since you can't even move on at all and it doesn't say you go back into reserves then the only other option is you die. And if you're on the boat of "oh well if that's the case then I would pick up my models and never play you again" then that's even worse because people refuse to see error in there tactics from lack of play or just plain refusal of playing better players. Like I've already said, if you put yourself in that situation then your at your own fault and there for should not be idiot from anything. Just learn not to do it again lol it's not hard

Wow, you've read nothing that I've written. Nice rant though, to bad you have no rules to support any of it.

Go place your models 1" apart on the table edge, and you will see it creates a gap where the models coming on from reserves can occupy.

lol no it doesn't

Pls stop mass quoting. It's annoying.

Have a look at your models and work it out...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Pls stop mass quoting. It's annoying.

Have a look at your models and work it out...

just did and you can't place anything

If the bases are 1" apart you have more than 1" to each base from one edge. Curved bases.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

I'm not saying the rules have an answer for this situation, in fact, I'm stating quite the opposite. There are no rules for this situation, so assuming it is automatically dead is quite presumptive. In fact, there is as much case for it going in to Ongoing Reserves as there is for being automatically dead.

Then make that case. The whole "game broke, everyone go home" stance is a non-stance, as it has no meaning in a rules discussion.

SJ

Actually, I have made that case. Once we hit cases of "the rules do not cover them", it is pure House Rules territory.

So, please, either demonstrate I am wrong, or accept that we're headed towards the Proposed Rules section.

Ok, so here are my two cents, bear in mind I do not participate in turnoments whatsoever, so if I'm factually wrong on something here feel free to correct me, no hard feelings on that.

My understanding is that most tournaments have a time limit on matches, and on turns, weather or not this one did I do not know, but this is just another possible ruling in my opinion based on that.

If the game freezes in place, following the rules perfectly, then doesn't that run out the clock, a secondary end game condition that was aforementioned in the tournament pamphlet (if it did have a time limit) in which case the game would end right?

If that's true, all units in deserve at the end of the game count as destroyed, and the tau player would have won via tabling.

Like I said, correct me if I'm wrong on the time limit thing, but that would have been the most accurate ruling under those constraints in my opinion.

Aegis1650 wrote:
Ok, so here are my two cents, bear in mind I do not participate in turnoments whatsoever, so if I'm factually wrong on something here feel free to correct me, no hard feelings on that.

My understanding is that most tournaments have a time limit on matches, and on turns, weather or not this one did I do not know, but this is just another possible ruling in my opinion based on that.

If the game freezes in place, following the rules perfectly, then doesn't that run out the clock, a secondary end game condition that was aforementioned in the tournament pamphlet (if it did have a time limit) in which case the game would end right?

If that's true, all units in deserve at the end of the game count as destroyed, and the tau player would have won via tabling.

Like I said, correct me if I'm wrong on the time limit thing, but that would have been the most accurate ruling under those constraints in my opinion.

Not quite. The issue at the time revolved around the fact that there was literally no rule to say that units were destroyed, or if they went into what we now call ongoing reserve... Given that, the TO had to rule what happened to the units. IF he had ruled that they couldn't enter the board, and kept going back into treserve, then yes, the Kroot player could have got a draw or win, depending on win conditions.

sirlynchmob wrote:
There is no rules support for either of those options though, since were making up house rules now, you could just allow them to come on their table edge. As unrealistic as blocking and entire table edge is blocking two is magnitudes more unrealistic. Or as all your models are on one side of the table, just let them come on the other side.

Because we do know, they MUST come on the table. As that is the base rule I believe we should work towards that goal.

The Kroot in the picture weren't all of the Tau army though, it's just his infiltrators - the rest are in his deployment zone. If we decided to let the bikers come in from the sides or the Tau edge we'd be handing them a huge bonus as they're now in the midst of the enemy who has a lot of his troops far away. If the all-reserves guy packs his models and goes home for having his reserves blocked surely the blocking guy will do the same if the other suddenly gets a huge advantage in Outflank for all his units?

A friendly game I'd just restart. A tournament with prizes? Let the time run out, or rather count points as if the time had run out. It's not the blocking player's fault that the rules don't say what happens to the other guy's reserves. Dock him Sportsmanship but the table is clearly his.

Personally I thought it made sense to count reserves destroyed if they couldn't come in - blocking everything isn't easy and coming from reserves is very good for certain units. Deepstriking carries a risk of mishapping, why shouldn't there be a risk of getting blocked with those that drive/walk on? The example biker army was in reserves precisely because it was so good for them. What's not to love about being able to turboboost on (prepared to Jink) with no chance of getting shot before you've moved?