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Just finished Descent of Angels and have a question.

Ok in the interest of fairness I’ll tell you now that I did not like this novel or the second Dark Angels Heresy novel “Fallen Angels”. The Dark Angels have two full Novels that are not really about the Dark Angels at all but are actually about the Fallen which is the subject the authors really wanted to focus on as neither was really interested in telling a story about the Lion and his sons. Neither Novel tells you anything about what the First where like as a legion and the Lion despite the fleshing out of the other Primarchs in other Hersey stories is little more than a convenient plot device. I ask you after reading this novel can you remember one thing about the first Legion (not what was happening on Caliban but the actual Legion itself) that is at all rememberable or makes them stand out when compared to any of the other legions.

As for why he sent Zahariel and Israfael back to Caliban the truth is that we just don’t know but it wasn’t because they were psychic. Remember the Dark Angels stood in defence of Magnus and the Thousand sons at the Council of Nikaea and he apparently had no problem reinstating his Librarians later on during the Hersey; making great use of their ability’s i might add.

My own personal head cannon is that the Lion recognized the similarities between the Saroshi home planet and Caliban. Both planets are corrupt to their very core, their taint hidden away from prying eyes. The Lion is not stupid by any stretch of the imagination and I am confident that what he witnessed under the planet’s surface combined with the knowledge he obtained from the Knights of Lupus and the council of the Watches in the Dark would have been enough to convince him that if anyone found out about the true nature of Caliban it would lead to the inevitable destruction of his home and everyone he cared for; perhaps by staying away from Caliban and sending back all those that had witnessed the corruption (and might have eventually came to the same conclusion he had) back to Caliban the Lion was trying to protect Caliban in his own way, attempting to hide the corruption for as long as possible until he can find a way to deal with it. Or perhaps the Lion didn’t want to risk the chance that some might have been corrupted by the encounter without their knowledge (the Watches seem to be very good at sensing the corrupting influence of Chaos) and essentially put them all into quarantine back home until he could be sure. But until we get a chance for the Lion to explain his actions we can unfortunately only guess as to what his reasons were.

That's a pretty good response and what I hoped for. Yeah, I was a little disappointed with it. It had a great opening, but really, there's nothing on the First as a Legion. Learning more about Caliban was great, but I wanted a lot more DA action than I get.

I always thought the Lion, while a great supporter of the Imperium, is a selfish gloryhound willing to do anything to win. I think that Luther is right. Deep down, the Lion wants the glory and he wants to remove from view people who get in the way. So he sent them home. I'm in the house that thinks the Lion planted and sowed the seeds of the heresy in his own chapter without realizing it. He just realizes his folly too late, and on top of that the Fallen don't really realize how deep they're in until it's too late, and then, well it's too late might as well go all in.

 jreilly89 wrote:
That's a pretty good response and what I hoped for. Yeah, I was a little disappointed with it. It had a great opening, but really, there's nothing on the First as a Legion. Learning more about Caliban was great, but I wanted a lot more DA action than I get.

Happy to help and I agree that learning more about Caliban was great but I wanted to learn more about what the first were like before the Fallen. This was the biggest disappointment for me as it seemed like such a wasted opportunity; the fallen are a big part of what the Dark Angels are in 40k but we are not reading about 40k Dark Angels we are reading about 30k Dark Angels. I wanted to read about them before the shame, when they were true Dark Angels not what they would become 10,000 years later. I really wanted to see them at their best so we could truly see how far they have fallen, to see what the Dark Angels had been like when they fought alongside their Primarch and the Emperor, and perhaps maybe get an idea of what they could be again someday when the hunt is finally over.

 disdamn wrote:
I always thought the Lion, while a great supporter of the Imperium, is a selfish gloryhound willing to do anything to win. I think that Luther is right. Deep down, the Lion wants the glory and he wants to remove from view people who get in the way. So he sent them home. I'm in the house that thinks the Lion planted and sowed the seeds of the heresy in his own chapter without realizing it. He just realizes his folly too late, and on top of that the Fallen don't really realize how deep they're in until it's too late, and then, well it's too late might as well go all in.

I wouldn't go as far as gloryhound, but I think he put his own ambitions above other people. He even admitted he wanted to be Warmaster.

Brother-Redemptor wrote:

My own personal head cannon is that the Lion recognized the similarities between the Saroshi home planet and Caliban. Both planets are corrupt to their very core, their taint hidden away from prying eyes. The Lion is not stupid by any stretch of the imagination and I am confident that what he witnessed under the planet’s surface combined with the knowledge he obtained from the Knights of Lupus and the council of the Watches in the Dark would have been enough to convince him that if anyone found out about the true nature of Caliban it would lead to the inevitable destruction of his home and everyone he cared for; perhaps by staying away from Caliban and sending back all those that had witnessed the corruption (and might have eventually came to the same conclusion he had) back to Caliban the Lion was trying to protect Caliban in his own way, attempting to hide the corruption for as long as possible until he can find a way to deal with it.

The events of Fallen Angels strongly support this theory. I think Luther actually openly states this theory himself near the end of the book.

Brother-Redemptor wrote:Neither Novel tells you anything about what the First where like as a legion and the Lion despite the fleshing out of the other Primarchs in other Hersey stories is little more than a convenient plot device. I ask you after reading this novel can you remember one thing about the first Legion (not what was happening on Caliban but the actual Legion itself) that is at all rememberable or makes them stand out when compared to any of the other legions.

1.) The First Legion was obsessively honest (to the point where outright lying is a capital offence). This is evidenced when Nemiel is "shocked to his very core" when he finds out the Lion deceived his Sons about his intentions when going to save Diamat from the Sons of Horus. Also, it's evidenced by the opening scene of Descent of Angels, and that the Lion made his Legion into basically a larger version of the Order.
2.) Legion combat doctrine includes concentric circles when operating on foot; the inner circle strengthening the outer
3.) The Legion uses the spiral as the basis for its swordplay
4.) The Legion operates in Squads of 10
5.) The Legion called its Chaplains "brother-redemptors" prior to the Fallen
6.) The Legion never actually heeded the Edict of Nikaea (as evidenced by Fallen Angels and Descent of Angels in their entirety)

 jreilly89 wrote:
Just finished Descent of Angels and have a question.

Spoiler:

Why did the Lion leave Zahariel and Israfael behind? Why was he suck a douche to everyone who defeated the angel of Sarosh? Was he butthurt he didn't have psychic powers? Also, is the Melachim affiliated to the Chaos gods? It seemed a mix of both Slaanesh and Tzeentch.

I believe the Melachim is a manifestation of Chaos Undivided, which doesn't necessarily have to be all 4 together. It can be a mixture of only a couple. Though not usually gods of opposite alignments(which Tzeentch and Slannesh are not)

Alternately, it could have been a minor warp entity. There are daemons who are not affiliated with any of the 4 main chaos gods, and there are even other minor warp gods(at which point the line between greater daemon and minor warp god is blurred).

 dusara217 wrote:

Brother-Redemptor wrote:Neither Novel tells you anything about what the First where like as a legion and the Lion despite the fleshing out of the other Primarchs in other Hersey stories is little more than a convenient plot device. I ask you after reading this novel can you remember one thing about the first Legion (not what was happening on Caliban but the actual Legion itself) that is at all rememberable or makes them stand out when compared to any of the other legions.

1.) The First Legion was obsessively honest (to the point where outright lying is a capital offence). This is evidenced when Nemiel is "shocked to his very core" when he finds out the Lion deceived his Sons about his intentions when going to save Diamat from the Sons of Horus. Also, it's evidenced by the opening scene of Descent of Angels, and that the Lion made his Legion into basically a larger version of the Order.
2.) Legion combat doctrine includes concentric circles when operating on foot; the inner circle strengthening the outer
3.) The Legion uses the spiral as the basis for its swordplay
4.) The Legion operates in Squads of 10
5.) The Legion called its Chaplains "brother-redemptors" prior to the Fallen
6.) The Legion never actually heeded the Edict of Nikaea (as evidenced by Fallen Angels and Descent of Angels in their entirety)

1-5 are goods points and I might have to reread the novels now to see if there is anything else in them that I may have forgotten . But still even when taking them into consideration compared too many of the other legions the representation of the First in these stories still feels very underwhelming and undeveloped in comparison especially when they had the benefit of two full Novels.

I disagree on 6 however. As far as I can remember the legion itself did heed the Edict of Nikaea it was just those that where on Caliban that did not for same reason. I could be very wrong on this however but as far as I can tell the Saroshi incident happened before Nikaea and when we see them in later stories there is no mention of any librarians amongst their ranks until they are reinstated during the Hersey apart from those on Caliban that for plot convenience sake are apparently still active.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 disdamn wrote:
I always thought the Lion, while a great supporter of the Imperium, is a selfish gloryhound willing to do anything to win. I think that Luther is right. Deep down, the Lion wants the glory and he wants to remove from view people who get in the way. So he sent them home. I'm in the house that thinks the Lion planted and sowed the seeds of the heresy in his own chapter without realizing it. He just realizes his folly too late, and on top of that the Fallen don't really realize how deep they're in until it's too late, and then, well it's too late might as well go all in.

I wouldn't go as far as gloryhound, but I think he put his own ambitions above other people. He even admitted he wanted to be Warmaster.

Actually, almost every primarch wanted to be Warmaster. When Kairos Fateweaver tried tempting the Lion, he found the Lion incorruptible. El'Jonson saw duty as its own reward,

However, the Lion did decapitate Nemiel for refusing to disobey the Edict of Nikae and staying loyal to the Emperor, rather than obey his primarch.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 disdamn wrote:
I always thought the Lion, while a great supporter of the Imperium, is a selfish gloryhound willing to do anything to win. I think that Luther is right. Deep down, the Lion wants the glory and he wants to remove from view people who get in the way. So he sent them home. I'm in the house that thinks the Lion planted and sowed the seeds of the heresy in his own chapter without realizing it. He just realizes his folly too late, and on top of that the Fallen don't really realize how deep they're in until it's too late, and then, well it's too late might as well go all in.

I wouldn't go as far as gloryhound, but I think he put his own ambitions above other people. He even admitted he wanted to be Warmaster.

Actually, almost every primarch wanted to be Warmaster. When Kairos Fateweaver tried tempting the Lion, he found the Lion incorruptible. El'Jonson saw duty as its own reward,

However, the Lion did decapitate Nemiel for refusing to disobey the Edict of Nikae and staying loyal to the Emperor, rather than obey his primarch.

That's called bad fluff. Mainly because, after reading a novel with Nemiel as the protagonist, that is completely and utterly uncharacteristic of Nemiel; he would have undoubtedly realized how the Lion would have reacted to that action and decided against it - it was a huge part of why he was made Chaplain, after all.