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notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say no advantage. Most Super heavy vehicles can't be hurt by small arms while GMCs can.

Small arms are functionally useless against all MCs and GMCs. You'll never do enough damage before your army is massacred.

um no? Small arms fire will obliterate Stormsurges as they are T6 with a 3+ save

You and I have very different definitions of "obliterate". T6 3+ save is functionally immortal against boltguns/lasguns. The reality is that there won't be anything left to shoot at this thing if it can fire all weapons and then double up when sieged up. Seriously, if Tau get this thing, I want goddamn Terran siege tanks from Starcraft for my marines.

i apologize, i jumped the gun. I wasn't thinking of blowguns or lasguns. I was more thinking more along the lines of Atr 5/6 AP3 type guns that normally could do nothing to SHV but will easily kill SS

Well, that is certainly a lot better. What guns have that profile though? Off hand, I don't see guns with that profile spammed to any great degree.

Akiasura wrote:
Generally, most small arms are on a BS 4 Str 4 platform.
So, each round causes .03737 wounds, so it takes 26 rounds to cause 1 wound.

So, if you possibly get your entire army into rapid fire range, you can 1 round the storm surge with bolters. This is not including it's crazy good range or any other upgrades it has, or what else the Tau army has brought that you may want to shoot at.

Lascannons, Missile Launchers and Plasma Guns sound like better choices to me. Maybe Grav weapons too?

Or Exorcists. Exorcists are always fun to use against things with good toughness and armor saves. I especially love using them against my mom's Meganobz, since my other options for dealing with MANz are melta weapons, and I generally don't want my troops getting that close.

 Pouncey wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Generally, most small arms are on a BS 4 Str 4 platform.
So, each round causes .03737 wounds, so it takes 26 rounds to cause 1 wound.

So, if you possibly get your entire army into rapid fire range, you can 1 round the storm surge with bolters. This is not including it's crazy good range or any other upgrades it has, or what else the Tau army has brought that you may want to shoot at.

Lascannons, Missile Launchers and Plasma Guns sound like better choices to me. Maybe Grav weapons too?

Or Exorcists. Exorcists are always fun to use against things with good toughness and armor saves. I especially love using them against my mom's Meganobz, since my other options for dealing with MANz are melta weapons, and I generally don't want my troops getting that close.

True. Grav weapons and PGs do very well against the SS. ML's are good too, although I don't think as cost effective as the grav weapons and PGs. Scat bikes also do well against these things.
But those are the same weapons you'd use against the wraithknight as well. Not the tide, except for plasma and grav, but it's standard fare against all GMCs/MCs.

Small arms though? Small arms do terrible against the SS.

notredameguy10 wrote:

You can just as easily say that "may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired" completely overrides the shooting rules for MC;

No, you can't. Nowhere are you given permission to do that.

notredameguy10 wrote:
as previously it says there are a list of exceptions to the MC rules

Yes, but the rule does not include a permission to fire more than 2 weapons - only an option to fire at different targets.

This discussion boils down to two things:

1) An individuals interpretation of the word 'each'
2) GW inability to write clear rules that portray their intent.

Think the thread is done.

Not sure if it has been posted here, and I can't be tossed to read through all the pages ><.

Here is the ETC 2016 first Draft (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzus0DMobfGYcDFQNmxOQ3A5azA/view?pli=1) it allows :

''GARGANTUAN CREATURES

1. (CETC) Gargantuan creatures may fire all of their weapons in the shooting phase.

2. (RAW) In the shooting phase, declare each target a weapon will fire at before resolving any shooting attack.''

Ofcourse it isn't a GW faq but lets be real here, the ETC faq in general is a pretty good guideline to go by for competitive 40k.

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say no advantage. Most Super heavy vehicles can't be hurt by small arms while GMCs can.

Small arms are functionally useless against all MCs and GMCs. You'll never do enough damage before your army is massacred.

um no? Small arms fire will obliterate Stormsurges as they are T6 with a 3+ save

You and I have very different definitions of "obliterate". T6 3+ save is functionally immortal against boltguns/lasguns. The reality is that there won't be anything left to shoot at this thing if it can fire all weapons and then double up when sieged up. Seriously, if Tau get this thing, I want goddamn Terran siege tanks from Starcraft for my marines.

So... a Vindicator?

Vindicator has crap range, and doesn't have two modes of fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say no advantage. Most Super heavy vehicles can't be hurt by small arms while GMCs can.

Small arms are functionally useless against all MCs and GMCs. You'll never do enough damage before your army is massacred.

um no? Small arms fire will obliterate Stormsurges as they are T6 with a 3+ save

You and I have very different definitions of "obliterate". T6 3+ save is functionally immortal against boltguns/lasguns. The reality is that there won't be anything left to shoot at this thing if it can fire all weapons and then double up when sieged up. Seriously, if Tau get this thing, I want goddamn Terran siege tanks from Starcraft for my marines.

i apologize, i jumped the gun. I wasn't thinking of blowguns or lasguns. I was more thinking more along the lines of Atr 5/6 AP3 type guns that normally could do nothing to SHV but will easily kill SS

Those aren't small arms unless you are Eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:
This discussion boils down to two things:

1) An individuals interpretation of the word 'each'
2) GW inability to write clear rules that portray their intent.

Think the thread is done.

Assuming GW knows their own intent. Which I think is a huge assumption.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:
Not sure if it has been posted here, and I can't be tossed to read through all the pages ><.

Here is the ETC 2016 first Draft (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzus0DMobfGYcDFQNmxOQ3A5azA/view?pli=1) it allows :

''GARGANTUAN CREATURES

1. (CETC) Gargantuan creatures may fire all of their weapons in the shooting phase.

2. (RAW) In the shooting phase, declare each target a weapon will fire at before resolving any shooting attack.''

Ofcourse it isn't a GW faq but lets be real here, the ETC faq in general is a pretty good guideline to go by for competitive 40k.

I am being real. I am really not playing against this thing with that ruling in effect.

 vipoid wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

You can just as easily say that "may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired" completely overrides the shooting rules for MC;

No, you can't. Nowhere are you given permission to do that.

notredameguy10 wrote:
as previously it says there are a list of exceptions to the MC rules

Yes, but the rule does not include a permission to fire more than 2 weapons - only an option to fire at different targets.

Yes it does. It says there are exceptions to the rules of MC. "may fire each of its weapons at a different target" can be seen as an exception and change the shooting rules for MC only firing 2 weapons. Again, if they wanted them to just be able to fire at different targets they would have given all GC split-fire special rule; but they didn't.

Martel732 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say no advantage. Most Super heavy vehicles can't be hurt by small arms while GMCs can.

Small arms are functionally useless against all MCs and GMCs. You'll never do enough damage before your army is massacred.

um no? Small arms fire will obliterate Stormsurges as they are T6 with a 3+ save

You and I have very different definitions of "obliterate". T6 3+ save is functionally immortal against boltguns/lasguns. The reality is that there won't be anything left to shoot at this thing if it can fire all weapons and then double up when sieged up. Seriously, if Tau get this thing, I want goddamn Terran siege tanks from Starcraft for my marines.

So... a Vindicator?

Vindicator has crap range, and doesn't have two modes of fire.

But the Vindicator has a big, powerful explosive shot that doesn't fire very quickly and can clear out large swathes of troops.

And not having two modes of fire isn't a problem. It gets the big splashy blast, but can drive around while firing it off.

notredameguy10 wrote:
Yes it does. It says there are exceptions to the rules of MC.

Yes, but the rule you're quoting does not give permission to override all MC shooting rules. There has to be a specific exception and there isn't one.

notredameguy10 wrote:
"may fire each of its weapons at a different target" can be seen as an exception and change the shooting rules for MC only firing 2 weapons.

Grammatically speaking, no it can't.

Again:

 insaniak wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
"May fire each of its weapons". If I have 4 weapons how many am I allowed to fire if the rules say I can fire each weapons?

You would be allowed to fire 4.

That's not what the rules say, though. They say that you may fire each of its weapons at a different target. Nowhere in that rule does it say 'now' or 'instead' as you claimed. You can't just add extra words (or remove them) in and claim that the meaning of the rule remains the same. Words matter. And so does punctuation.

You're reading the rule as -

'...may fire each of its weapons, at different targets if desired.'

...when what it actually says is -

'..may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired.'



The former is permission to fire as many weapons as it has, and to fire them at different targets. The latter is permission to fire as many weapons as you are firing at different targets. It has no impact on how many weapons you can fire.

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say no advantage. Most Super heavy vehicles can't be hurt by small arms while GMCs can.

Small arms are functionally useless against all MCs and GMCs. You'll never do enough damage before your army is massacred.

um no? Small arms fire will obliterate Stormsurges as they are T6 with a 3+ save

You and I have very different definitions of "obliterate". T6 3+ save is functionally immortal against boltguns/lasguns. The reality is that there won't be anything left to shoot at this thing if it can fire all weapons and then double up when sieged up. Seriously, if Tau get this thing, I want goddamn Terran siege tanks from Starcraft for my marines.

So... a Vindicator?

Vindicator has crap range, and doesn't have two modes of fire.

But the Vindicator has a big, powerful explosive shot that doesn't fire very quickly and can clear out large swathes of troops.

And not having two modes of fire isn't a problem. It gets the big splashy blast, but can drive around while firing it off.

Except the range is terrible, and functionally the Vindicator sucks in 40K because of cover and jinking units. And units like TWC with multiple stormshields. A weapon system that outranges Xeno stuff would be really nice.

 vipoid wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
Yes it does. It says there are exceptions to the rules of MC.

Yes, but the rule you're quoting does not give permission to override all MC shooting rules. There has to be a specific exception and there isn't one.

notredameguy10 wrote:
"may fire each of its weapons at a different target" can be seen as an exception and change the shooting rules for MC only firing 2 weapons.

Grammatically speaking, no it can't.

Again:

 insaniak wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
"May fire each of its weapons". If I have 4 weapons how many am I allowed to fire if the rules say I can fire each weapons?

You would be allowed to fire 4.

That's not what the rules say, though. They say that you may fire each of its weapons at a different target. Nowhere in that rule does it say 'now' or 'instead' as you claimed. You can't just add extra words (or remove them) in and claim that the meaning of the rule remains the same. Words matter. And so does punctuation.

You're reading the rule as -

'...may fire each of its weapons, at different targets if desired.'

...when what it actually says is -

'..may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired.'



The former is permission to fire as many weapons as it has, and to fire them at different targets. The latter is permission to fire as many weapons as you are firing at different targets. It has no impact on how many weapons you can fire.

I disagree. If a brand new type of model came out and the rules for shooting were "may fire each of its weapons at a different target" it is obvious it means all weapons and a different target may be picked for each.

I noticed how you very quickly moved on from my point about superheavy vehicles having nothing on GMCs with this ruling. GMCs are functionally immune to small arms, as opposed to the vehicles being completely immune. Yippee.

Str 5/6 ap3 guns are a lot less common in most armies and the few that can be brought are easily taken out by a stormsurge long before getting into a good range.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Str 5/6 ap3 guns are a lot less common in most armies and the few that can be brought are easily taken out by a stormsurge long before getting into a good range.

DA can bring a ton of plasma, but that's assuming you aren't vaporized by cover-ignoring blasts before you get within 9"-12".

I would never get in range of one, even if I outflank the amount of interceptor the Tau can have will see the squad destroyed long before the shooting phase.

Martel732 wrote:
Except the range is terrible, and functionally the Vindicator sucks in 40K because of cover and jinking units. And units like TWC with multiple stormshields. A weapon system that outranges Xeno stuff would be really nice.

Ahh, sorry, I was thinking more in terms of the blast itself rather than the range.

I suppose taking some IG tanks as allies is out of the question? I seem to recall that the most recent IG codex I've read has rules that allow for a fully-tank IG list, but I could be wrong.

LRBT has VERY nice range, and its blast is just as effective against the Stormsurge Battlesuit as a Vindicator. Plus it gets some extra less-powerful guns that can be ablative weapons for Weapon Destroyed results, or provide some firepower if the main turret is taken out.

A bit pricey, but a Predator with 4 Lascannon barrels (2 being the twin-linked turret weapon together) can put out some long-range anti-tank firepower while staying Marines. Probably can damage tanks and other large targets better than the LRBT.

Okay. I've read all of the posts so far. All of them.

The "2 weapons"- side have the stronger argument. And come on; The rulebook came out before the Stormsurge. Anyone (well, many) whining about it having many guns and therefore should be able to fire them all are suffering from confirmation bias. While GW will do things that GW does it the MC/GMC rules will get a FAQ, sometime around 2017-2018. But until then it is 2 weapons with "split fire" for your GMC's. Sauce: This thread.

Anyway. I will make a roll as per The most important rule™ on behalf of the whole 40k community. 4+ means only shooting two weapons for GMC.

*roll*
Ha! Would you look at that!

 Forcemajeure wrote:
Okay. I've read all of the posts so far. All of them.

The "2 weapons"- side have the stronger argument. And come on; The rulebook came out before the Stormsurge. Anyone (well, many) whining about it having many guns and therefore should be able to fire them all are suffering from confirmation bias. While GW will do things that GW does it the MC/GMC rules will get a FAQ, sometime around 2017-2018. But until then it is 2 weapons with "split fire" for your GMC's. Sauce: This thread.

Anyway. I will make a roll as per The most important rule™ on behalf of the whole 40k community. 4+ means only shooting two weapons for GMC.

*roll*
Ha! Would you look at that!

Too bad the "community" has already voted and ~80% has voted they can fire all weapons, thus why all ITC tournaments use that ruling

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Except the range is terrible, and functionally the Vindicator sucks in 40K because of cover and jinking units. And units like TWC with multiple stormshields. A weapon system that outranges Xeno stuff would be really nice.

Ahh, sorry, I was thinking more in terms of the blast itself rather than the range.

I suppose taking some IG tanks as allies is out of the question? I seem to recall that the most recent IG codex I've read has rules that allow for a fully-tank IG list, but I could be wrong.

LRBT has VERY nice range, and its blast is just as effective against the Stormsurge Battlesuit as a Vindicator. Plus it gets some extra less-powerful guns that can be ablative weapons for Weapon Destroyed results, or provide some firepower if the main turret is taken out.

A bit pricey, but a Predator with 4 Lascannon barrels (2 being the twin-linked turret weapon together) can put out some long-range anti-tank firepower while staying Marines. Probably can damage tanks and other large targets better than the LRBT.

None of these weapon systems are as effective as a GMC or the Crucio tank in Starcraft for that matter. Everything you listed is horribly overcosted in 40K for its utility. GMCs are undercosted, and the Crucio is near-perfectly costed in SC II.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Too bad the "community" has already voted and ~80% has voted they can fire all weapons, thus why all ITC tournaments use that ruling

I've heard much of this supposed vote. Link please? Just out of curiosity of course. The rulebook is not a democratic constitution, mind you.

 Forcemajeure wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Too bad the "community" has already voted and ~80% has voted they can fire all weapons, thus why all ITC tournaments use that ruling

I've heard much of this supposed vote. Link please? Just out of curiosity of course. The rulebook is not a democratic constitution, mind you.

Compilation of all polls and rule clarifications:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NkfW26mcJHaqDKlaZyA3PB-prM0k17-DuTifGv2mOG4/pub

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say no advantage. Most Super heavy vehicles can't be hurt by small arms while GMCs can.

Small arms are functionally useless against all MCs and GMCs. You'll never do enough damage before your army is massacred.

um no? Small arms fire will obliterate Stormsurges as they are T6 with a 3+ save

You and I have very different definitions of "obliterate". T6 3+ save is functionally immortal against boltguns/lasguns. The reality is that there won't be anything left to shoot at this thing if it can fire all weapons and then double up when sieged up. Seriously, if Tau get this thing, I want goddamn Terran siege tanks from Starcraft for my marines.

I guess all those times my Dreadknight, which is T6 with a 2+ save, died to bolter fire he was really just leaving the battle because he was bored.

Two of the largest tournament faq ''bodies'' ITC and ETC ( and in the case of the ETC, one of the most prestigious in terms of competitive 40k) have ruled that it can fire all it's weapons. Which seems to make perfect sense considering it's points cost, would be baffling if it could not.

Furthermore there is multiple emails from White Dwarf, FW and GW stating that it can fire all it's weapons.

I think it's time players move past this because that's how the stormsurge is gona play for almost all the major tournaments, if your list/army can't handle that, gz, your list/army isn't fit for tournament play. Meta's change. Armies sometimes have to change with that.

I think this has gone around in circles for long enough, by this point. Time to move on.