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 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool well 1 that means jink doesn't work and 2 I'm going to want a quote for that.

Sure, when Jink relies on obscuring by being in terrain.

Oh, wait... It doesn't.

Context matters.

Ruins: "Models in ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured

Vehicles: "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedent".

I do not know how you can even argue this lol. Models (non vehicles) in ruins do not need to be 25% obscured to get a 4+ cover save. It then specifically says vehicles DO need to be 25% obscured.

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool well 1 that means jink doesn't work and 2 I'm going to want a quote for that.

Sure, when Jink relies on obscuring by being in terrain.

Oh, wait... It doesn't.

Context matters.

that's not what he claimed. He was arguing that vehicles couldn't get cover from rules like Jink and Ruins that give cover saves not reliant on being obscured.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool well 1 that means jink doesn't work and 2 I'm going to want a quote for that.

Sure, when Jink relies on obscuring by being in terrain.

Oh, wait... It doesn't.

Context matters.

that's not what he claimed. He was arguing that vehicles couldn't get cover from rules like Jink and Ruins that give cover saves not reliant on being obscured.

calm down there captain, obvious jink works as well. I was talking about terrain. And how about my quotes above?

Ruins: "Models in ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured

Vehicles: "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedent".

I do not know how you can even argue this lol. Models (non vehicles) in ruins do not need to be 25% obscured to get a 4+ cover save. It then specifically says vehicles DO need to be 25% obscured.

notredameguy10 wrote:
Ruins: "Models in ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured

Vehicles: "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedent".

I do not know how you can even argue this lol. Models (non vehicles) in ruins do not need to be 25% obscured to get a 4+ cover save. It then specifically says vehicles DO need to be 25% obscured.

Please learn to speak English before debating. Or if you know English please don't lie. Those rules do not say what you claim in the bottom paragraph at all. As has been explained in detail repeatedly now.

Do you have anything new to add or do you concede?

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
Ruins: "Models in ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured

Vehicles: "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedent".

I do not know how you can even argue this lol. Models (non vehicles) in ruins do not need to be 25% obscured to get a 4+ cover save. It then specifically says vehicles DO need to be 25% obscured.

Please learn to speak English before debating. Or if you know English please don't lie. Those rules do not say what you claim in the bottom paragraph at all. As has been explained in detail repeatedly now.

Do you have anything new to add or do you concede?

haha you are funny. That is exactly what it says.

1.) normally models need to be 25% obscured to get a cover save from terrain.
2.) Ruins add an additional rule that says in ruins you do not need to be 25% obscured and still get the cover save
3.) Then for vehicles it says that the 25% rule is still in effect even for ruins/forests

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool well 1 that means jink doesn't work and 2 I'm going to want a quote for that.

Sure, when Jink relies on obscuring by being in terrain.

Oh, wait... It doesn't.

Context matters.

that's not what he claimed. He was arguing that vehicles couldn't get cover from rules like Jink and Ruins that give cover saves not reliant on being obscured.

calm down there captain, obvious jink works as well. I was talking about terrain. And how about my quotes above?

Ruins: "Models in ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured

Vehicles: "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedent".

I do not know how you can even argue this lol. Models (non vehicles) in ruins do not need to be 25% obscured to get a 4+ cover save. It then specifically says vehicles DO need to be 25% obscured.

It specifies what it specifies. The first quote states being obscured is irrelevant to whether you get a cover save from ruins. The second quote states that vehicles are only ever obscured when they are 25% covered.

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool well 1 that means jink doesn't work and 2 I'm going to want a quote for that.

Sure, when Jink relies on obscuring by being in terrain.

Oh, wait... It doesn't.

Context matters.

that's not what he claimed. He was arguing that vehicles couldn't get cover from rules like Jink and Ruins that give cover saves not reliant on being obscured.

calm down there captain, obvious jink works as well. I was talking about terrain. And how about my quotes above?

Ruins: "Models in ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured

Vehicles: "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedent".

I do not know how you can even argue this lol. Models (non vehicles) in ruins do not need to be 25% obscured to get a 4+ cover save. It then specifically says vehicles DO need to be 25% obscured.

It specifies what it specifies. The first quote states being obscured is irrelevant to whether you get a cover save from ruins. The second quote states that vehicles are only ever obscured when they are 25% covered.

You are THE only person i have every met in 15 years of gaming who thinks this. You are just to stubborn or thickskulled to admit you are wrong.

Vehicles NEED to be obscured to get a cover save from terrain. It literally says the 25% rule takes precedent over area terrain

He hasn't even said he plays it that way.

It IS what the rules say RAW

I have literally stated what the rules have said. You have repeatedly lied about what the rules state then claim rules that have only existed for 2 years have been agreed on for 15 (another example of your lies). Being so obviously dishonest does not help your case or make for a polite discussion. Now do you have anything to add that actually supports your case?

I find it hard to believe you are honestly still missing the point.

vehicle rule says you are not obscured. terrain rule says you get a save even if you are not obscured

 jokerkd wrote:
He hasn't even said he plays it that way.

It IS what the rules say RAW

They literally added an entire bullet point separate from everything else that says "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedent". It is obvious this was put to say area terrain does not affect vehicles.


It says: "At least 25% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted... needs to be hidden by intervening terrain... for the vehicle to be in cover"... "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedent"

The 25% rule given above takes precedent meaning that overrides the regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
He hasn't even said he plays it that way.

It IS what the rules say RAW

They literally added an entire bullet point separate from everything else that says "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedent". It is obvious this was put to say area terrain does not affect vehicles.

I also believe that was the Intended purpose. though RAI can never really be known for sure. Flingit has given a possible reason that it should be as RAW (though i disagree)

I play it the same way you do. It's just not how the rules actually tell you to

 jokerkd wrote:
He hasn't even said he plays it that way.

It IS what the rules say RAW

I play by RaW unless my opponent will agree to the house rule that vehicles and MCs need to be 25% obscured to get a cover save from any terrain. I see no reason to treat MCs and Vehicles differently.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
He hasn't even said he plays it that way.

It IS what the rules say RAW

I see no reason to treat MCs and Vehicles differently.

Except MC are just larger humans/humanoids. They can quickly react and move behind a wall of ruins or trees of a forest. Vehicles cannot

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
He hasn't even said he plays it that way.

It IS what the rules say RAW

I see no reason to treat MCs and Vehicles differently.

Except MC are just larger humans/humanoids. They can quickly react and move behind a wall of ruins or trees of a forest. Vehicles cannot

Not all of them. Many are just vehicles with legs from a background perspective. But if that is how you and your group want to play, then go ahead and play by that House rule.

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
He hasn't even said he plays it that way.

It IS what the rules say RAW

I see no reason to treat MCs and Vehicles differently.

Except MC are just larger humans/humanoids. They can quickly react and move behind a wall of ruins or trees of a forest. Vehicles cannot

Not all of them. Many are just vehicles with legs from a background perspective. But if that is how you and your group want to play, then go ahead and play by that House rule.

Lol i think the rule is terrible in general. I do not believe MC should get cover for having a single toe in a ruins either (although that is crystal clear in the rules currently that they do)

You also need to work on your people skills, as you were starting to sound like kind of a back there. "do you concede?" "do you concede?" "do you understand english?"

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
He hasn't even said he plays it that way.

It IS what the rules say RAW

I see no reason to treat MCs and Vehicles differently.

Except MC are just larger humans/humanoids. They can quickly react and move behind a wall of ruins or trees of a forest. Vehicles cannot

Not all of them. Many are just vehicles with legs from a background perspective. But if that is how you and your group want to play, then go ahead and play by that House rule.

Lol i think the rule is terrible in general. I do not believe MC should get cover for having a single toe in a ruins either (although that is crystal clear in the rules currently that they do)

Just as it is crystal clear that vehicles do too.

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
He hasn't even said he plays it that way.

It IS what the rules say RAW

I see no reason to treat MCs and Vehicles differently.

Except MC are just larger humans/humanoids. They can quickly react and move behind a wall of ruins or trees of a forest. Vehicles cannot

Not all of them. Many are just vehicles with legs from a background perspective. But if that is how you and your group want to play, then go ahead and play by that House rule.

Lol i think the rule is terrible in general. I do not believe MC should get cover for having a single toe in a ruins either (although that is crystal clear in the rules currently that they do)

Just as it is crystal clear that vehicles do too.

Obviously not as you have numerous people arguing with you

 FlingitNow wrote:
Just as it is crystal clear that vehicles do too.

Yeup, because that is what the following means:

Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods
or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedence.

Yeup. It definitely states that the Vehicle gets to use Terrain Cover Saves just by being in them.

Oh, wait... It says the exact opposite.

That's the same as implying that Jink is Area Terrain that you previously had posted.

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
what don't you understand about the quote:

"Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedence."

i.e. Being in ruins do not give vehicles cover. They still need to be 25% obscured.

So all cover saves are depend on being obscured? Is that what you're saying? Because your quote talks about obscured and makes no mentionsof cover saves.

Because the ONLY cover saves vehicles CAN get are those from being obscured lol

Cool well 1 that means jink doesn't work and 2 I'm going to want a quote for that.

You took the link to Jink out of Context of the argument.

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Just as it is crystal clear that vehicles do too.

Yeup, because that is what the following means:

Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods
or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedence.

Yeup. It definitely states that the Vehicle gets to use Terrain Cover Saves just by being in them.

Oh, wait... It says the exact opposite.

Nope it says nothing about cover saves. Again I have gone over this countless times. Do you have a coherent point based on the rules or just repeating things you know to be false over and over?

That's the same as implying that Jink is Area Terrain that you previously had posted.

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
what don't you understand about the quote:

"Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedence."

i.e. Being in ruins do not give vehicles cover. They still need to be 25% obscured.

So all cover saves are depend on being obscured? Is that what you're saying? Because your quote talks about obscured and makes no mentionsof cover saves.

Because the ONLY cover saves vehicles CAN get are those from being obscured lol

Cool well 1 that means jink doesn't work and 2 I'm going to want a quote for that.

You took the link to Jink out of Context of the argument.

I never said jink was area terrain. Area terrain doesn't exist in 7th Ed. Jink however is just like Ruins and the Datasheets in that it gives a cover save not dependent on being obscured by terrain. So any claim that vehicles only get cover saves based on being obscured will cover Jink too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
He hasn't even said he plays it that way.

It IS what the rules say RAW

I see no reason to treat MCs and Vehicles differently.

Except MC are just larger humans/humanoids. They can quickly react and move behind a wall of ruins or trees of a forest. Vehicles cannot

Not all of them. Many are just vehicles with legs from a background perspective. But if that is how you and your group want to play, then go ahead and play by that House rule.

Lol i think the rule is terrible in general. I do not believe MC should get cover for having a single toe in a ruins either (although that is crystal clear in the rules currently that they do)

Just as it is crystal clear that vehicles do too.

Obviously not as you have numerous people arguing with you

Well just because people are arguing doesn't mean something isn't clear. Look at Coordinated Firepower in the new Tau codex. A very clear rule that people argue about a lot. Also note how no one is actually arguing against my rules with rules. They are making things up and then claiming the rules say those things often quoting the very rules that prove them wrong

 FlingitNow wrote:


Nope it says nothing about cover saves. Again I have gone over this countless times. Do you have a coherent point based on the rules or just repeating things you know to be false over and over?

Again, " The 25% rule given above takes precedence" overrides anything the ruins rule says about not needing to be obscured

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Nope it says nothing about cover saves. Again I have gone over this countless times. Do you have a coherent point based on the rules or just repeating things you know to be false over and over?

Again, " The 25% rule given above takes precedence" overrides anything the ruins rule says about not needing to be obscured

Seriously? Why this lie? Nothing in the vehicle rule prevents you from getting a cover save unless 25% obscured and if it did then Jink wouldn't work.

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Nope it says nothing about cover saves. Again I have gone over this countless times. Do you have a coherent point based on the rules or just repeating things you know to be false over and over?

Again, " The 25% rule given above takes precedence" overrides anything the ruins rule says about not needing to be obscured

Seriously? Why this lie? Nothing in the vehicle rule prevents you from getting a cover save unless 25% obscured and if it did then Jink wouldn't work.

*sigh* Because Jink is a special ability that is specifically given to vehicles

And it is not a lie. BRB specifically says more specific rules override general rules.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Nope it says nothing about cover saves. Again I have gone over this countless times. Do you have a coherent point based on the rules or just repeating things you know to be false over and over?

Again, " The 25% rule given above takes precedence" overrides anything the ruins rule says about not needing to be obscured

Seriously? Why this lie? Nothing in the vehicle rule prevents you from getting a cover save unless 25% obscured and if it did then Jink wouldn't work.

*sigh* Because Jink is a special ability that is specifically given to vehicles

And it is not a lie. BRB specifically says more specific rules override general rules.

Cool the Jink rules don't call out vehicles any more specifically than the datasheets and ruins rules. It is a lie to claim that the vehicle rules say things you know they don't say as we've discussed that at length many times. So do the vehicle rules say you can get a cover save unless 25% obscured? This is a claim that has been made multiple times yet no one can quote a rule that states that.

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Nope it says nothing about cover saves. Again I have gone over this countless times. Do you have a coherent point based on the rules or just repeating things you know to be false over and over?

Again, " The 25% rule given above takes precedence" overrides anything the ruins rule says about not needing to be obscured

Seriously? Why this lie? Nothing in the vehicle rule prevents you from getting a cover save unless 25% obscured and if it did then Jink wouldn't work.

*sigh* Because Jink is a special ability that is specifically given to vehicles

And it is not a lie. BRB specifically says more specific rules override general rules.

Cool the Jink rules don't call out vehicles any more specifically than the datasheets and ruins rules. It is a lie to claim that the vehicle rules say things you know they don't say as we've discussed that at length many times. So do the vehicle rules say you can get a cover save unless 25% obscured? This is a claim that has been made multiple times yet no one can quote a rule that states that.

You can think and play however you want, but you are wrong and everyone knows it. Good luck trying to pull that on anyone at a local gaming store, and tournaments already play that they do not get a cover save in area terrain.

You have also yet to explain the meaning of "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedence." You keep skipping over that part every time

notredameguy, where in the rules for ruins does the rules say a model in ruins is obscured?

 Happyjew wrote:
notredameguy, where in the rules for ruins does the rules say a model in ruins is obscured?

How in the heck else do ruins block shots from hitting you then obscuring you

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Nope it says nothing about cover saves. Again I have gone over this countless times. Do you have a coherent point based on the rules or just repeating things you know to be false over and over?

Again, " The 25% rule given above takes precedence" overrides anything the ruins rule says about not needing to be obscured

Seriously? Why this lie? Nothing in the vehicle rule prevents you from getting a cover save unless 25% obscured and if it did then Jink wouldn't work.

*sigh* Because Jink is a special ability that is specifically given to vehicles

And it is not a lie. BRB specifically says more specific rules override general rules.

Cool the Jink rules don't call out vehicles any more specifically than the datasheets and ruins rules. It is a lie to claim that the vehicle rules say things you know they don't say as we've discussed that at length many times. So do the vehicle rules say you can get a cover save unless 25% obscured? This is a claim that has been made multiple times yet no one can quote a rule that states that.

You can think and play however you want, but you are wrong and everyone knows it. Good luck trying to pull that on anyone at a local gaming store, and tournaments already play that they do not get a cover save in area terrain.

You have also yet to explain the meaning of "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedence." You keep skipping over that part every time

I have explained the meaning several times. It means what it says. Vehicles are only obscured by being 25% covered in the relevant facing and do not get obscured from simply being in terrain. It is a rule about how Vehicles get the obscured status and thus the cover saves gained from such a status, it does not interact with rules like Jink or Ruins which give cover saves regardless of obscured status. I really don't know how else to explain it to you? It is a rule about being obscured because it only talks about obscured and thus effects obscured. Seriously do you have any grasp of the English language?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
notredameguy, where in the rules for ruins does the rules say a model in ruins is obscured?

How in the heck else do ruins block shots from hitting you then obscuring you

By giving you a 4+ cover save. Nothing in the ruins rules says said save is based on being obscured in fact they state the exact opposite. If your interpretation is based on the rules meaning the exact opposite of what they say then you're on shaky ground...

Let me try to explain this again:

1.) Models IN ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured
2.) "Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule given above takes precedence."

Models in ruins are CONSIDERED OBSCURED no matter if only 1% is actually obscured instead of the normal 25%
Vehicles are not considered obscured for just being in ruins (1%-24%) but need to actually have 25% obscured.

I find it hilarious you believe ruins give a 4+ cover save, but don't actually obscure the target in any way