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Hey guys,

I'm curious: How long would it take for a Chapter to recover from significant losses?

For example, we have the Crimson Fists who, in 989-990.M41 had the devastating battle of Rynn's World, lost large numbers of Astarted and currently have less than 500 Astartes. How long would it take them to get back to full strength (assuming full strength = 1,000 Astartes)?

Cheers guys

I think it depends on the chapter in question, how it runs its logistics, the resources it has and the support it has from other parties.

Some random 13th founding chapter? Yea, you're probably going on a slow decline into extinction.

Blood Angels get reduced to a few dozen men? Hey successor chapters: lend us some marines, back to full strength in no time.

So a Fleet-Based Crusading Chapter with approximately 300 Astartes remaining is unlikely to recover in a hurry?

"With the bulk of their Chapter deployed in defence of the Imperium around the Eye of Terror to halt the 13th Black Crusade, much of Archea was consumed by the Great Devourer. With a world and a Chapter to rebuild, it will likely take several standard centuries before the Sons of Dorn are back to full strength."

So, according to the wikia (not reliable, I know), it would take "several centuries" to recover from extensive losses (> 100 Astartes remaining).

Yep, they have to grow the zygotes for the implanted organs from harvested progenoids (or the "backup samples" sent to Terra) and grow them to term, then wait until enough suitable candidates are found to take them.

Then train them up, implant the organs, wait another 5 years, harvest the 1st progenoid, etc.

Logically, any chapter decimated the way the CF were, is doomed to extinction - which is why several such chapters HAVE gone off into "crusades" (better to die in battle than face slow extinction).

 chromedog wrote:
Yep, they have to grow the zygotes for the implanted organs from harvested progenoids (or the "backup samples" sent to Terra) and grow them to term, then wait until enough suitable candidates are found to take them.

Then train them up, implant the organs, wait another 5 years, harvest the 1st progenoid, etc.

Logically, any chapter decimated the way the CF were, is doomed to extinction - which is why several such chapters HAVE gone off into "crusades" (better to die in battle than face slow extinction).

Well, why ? They can just wait.

The Imperium does not have the resources to let three hundred fighting-fit Astartes lounge around for a century.

But I doubt they'd let them run around getting themselves killed because it would take too long to replenish their numbers. But never-the-less I'm sure its happened against my logic.

I'd reckon that either they get absorbed into another chapter, or they get wiped out in a final stand/crusade or they get reinforced by other chapters. If we're talking resolution within a decade.

Long-standing icons of the IOM like the Crimson Fists will be kept alive - possibly through reinforcements and by joining up with similarly devastated chapters.

Fully-populated chapters give a gene-seed tax to Terra, so that new chapters can be made in their place when an opening occurs. Badly damaged chapters could go into training up a new batch or three of marines.

The Ultramarines took two centuries to recover from the Battle of Macragge. That included replacing the entire first company.

 Nevelon wrote:
The Ultramarines took two centuries to recover from the Battle of Macragge. That included replacing the entire first company.

And they're a Chapter known for their very efficient recruiting practices. They carry out genetic tests on a large scale and select initiates based on their performance in military academies. Nothing is wasted as those not selected in this round of recruitment are allowed to carry on normal lives and thus can produce a new generation of genetically compatible children.

Now imagine how long it would take for some needlessly barbaric Chapter that first makes the willing fight to the death (or risk death in something else insanely dangerous, like hunting a beast alone or walking across a desert) and then kill off most of the rest too in training. For such losing over half the Chapter could actually be an unrecoverable loss, at least within any reasonable timeframe.

 Nevelon wrote:
The Ultramarines took two centuries to recover from the Battle of Macragge. That included replacing the entire first company.

My understanding of that is that they were held up by being elitist: It took them 2 centuries to bring the first company up to strength because they refused to just promote the 100 most senior surviving marines to the 1st company, they had to wait for them to fulfill the pre-Macragge criteria for veterancy.

 Gashrog wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The Ultramarines took two centuries to recover from the Battle of Macragge. That included replacing the entire first company.

My understanding of that is that they were held up by being elitist: It took them 2 centuries to bring the first company up to strength because they refused to just promote the 100 most senior surviving marines to the 1st company, they had to wait for them to fulfill the pre-Macragge criteria for veterancy.

And this is a bad thing? While a chapter could just recruit and promote as fast as possible, just to fill slots, is this a good thing? I’d not want to be in a situation where veteran skills were needed to pull out a win, and all we got was someone from the reserve company with white trim on his pauldrons.

I guess you could look at recovery time in two different ways. One is just to get the body count back up to full strength. Technically you could call that recovered. The other would be the time it takes to get to the point before the crisis happened. That means time for marines to naturally rise to their positions with proper seasoning and experience. Arms and armor replaced, etc. In the Ultramarines case, with the loss of the entire fist company, this is going to take a lot longer.

The recovery takes as long as the plot requires.

/thread

 Tigramans wrote:
The recovery takes as long as the plot requires.

/thread

Cheet answer if you ask me. For example:

I could say that a Chapter went from 200 Astartes back up to full strength (1,000 Astartes) in one Terran year "... because the plot requires."

It would depend on the chapter. Some, like the Ultramarines, can recover their losses relatively quickly due to a larger scout company and efficient recruiting. Others (like the White Consuls) might take centuries depending on the severity of the loss.

As mentioned in most space marine threads, space marine chapters dont make any sense at 1000 marines; if they were 1000000 marines they would match the fluff and have sensible recovery times based on realistic losses.

It also depends on the chapters' base of operations. The ultramarines have many worlds constantly seeking aspirants, so they can rebuild quickly. The crimson fists don't have a stable base from which to recruit, so they have to find worlds that might be suitable first, which often results in conflicts, reducing numbers even further.

Tailessine wrote:
As mentioned in most space marine threads, space marine chapters dont make any sense at 1000 marines; if they were 1000000 marines they would match the fluff and have sensible recovery times based on realistic losses.

I am 100% with you. I wish that Games Workshop just admitted that they balls'ed up the concept or were completely oblivious to militay logistics, manpower, tactics etc when they drew up the lore around chapter strength and organisation, and just retcon the numbers to make a chapter in the region of 10,000 line marines (at the very least, though a couple of hundred thousand would make more sense, with legions having been in the millions).

1000 soldiers is ridiculously small for any kind of open warfare or open battle in our current era, let alone in the far distant future of galaxy wide conflict involving millions of troops, titans, weapons which can destroy cities etc. If you were talking about special forces, small scale surgical engagements, then 1000 is still very small, but a bit more believable. However, that is not how the fluff is portrayed. In fact 1000 marines in fact never even happens, because a whole chapter rarely takes to the field,.. so you might be talking about a hundered or so marines with vehicles to transport etc.

Take the 2013 G8 summit, they had the smallest amount of police EVER deployed and it still came to about 8000 officers, covering a small area over a week long period, with a fairly small allowance for attrition. That is not even talking about a city or country or continent, let along a hive city or a whole planet or solar system. Even super soldiers would need to number in the thousands upon thousands to simply cover the ground or take territory (allowing millions upon millions of imperial guard to support or hold captured ground).

The French have deployed 115,000 police and military just for the current crisis, which is effectively about maintaining a deterrent/ reassurance and surge QRF capability.

Under the current fluff of how the astartes go about their business, they would spend far more more time in recovery and rebuilding than fighting,... in fact they would only be able to afford serious engagments every few decades if not less often.
I know, creative juices have been flowing and many consider that 1000 is ridiculously small (simple bad luck like a thunderhawk crash, a couple of drop pods and rhinos get taken out or other large ordinance/ arty explosion could wipe out half the fielded force if they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time), so we have theories such as servitor pilots or vehice crew, chapter serfs piloting, crewing and maintaining.

In the 60's/ 70's the ratio of support troops to combat troops was about 20 to 1,... I'm guessing the servitors can handle a lot, but that still means a huge support organisation keeping a chaper (or company in the field).

The ridiculously long training times, difficult logistics, problems with inefficient recruitment (high attrition rate of aspirants, organ rejection etc) etc only compound the problem.

In short, under current fluff, the chapters would be always under strength and struggling to maintain numbers, 1000 marine are just far too small.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Tigramans wrote:
The recovery takes as long as the plot requires.

/thread

Cheet answer if you ask me. For example:

I could say that a Chapter went from 200 Astartes back up to full strength (1,000 Astartes) in one Terran year "... because the plot requires."

The Chapter received handouts from lesser chapters. Done.

 Selym wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Tigramans wrote:
The recovery takes as long as the plot requires.

/thread

Cheet answer if you ask me. For example:

I could say that a Chapter went from 200 Astartes back up to full strength (1,000 Astartes) in one Terran year "... because the plot requires."

The Chapter received handouts from lesser chapters. Done.

dem blood angles doh...

Even though i think a full strength chapter is over 1000, i don't think that number is crazy. What's wrong is the table top doesn't match the fluff.

@houndsofdemos don't forget that the fluff doesn't match the logic you see Ultramarines playing the part of IG all the friggin time.

It entirely depends on their geneseed reserves. Remaining living marines aren't a huge issue unless the Apothecaries are gone or nobody is left to teach the initiates.

Since each space marine creates 2 Progenoids, and one can be harvested prior to death, and each progenoid can create 2 new sets of geneseed, you basically have a simple x2 reproduction multiplier.

We know it takes approximately 10 years for an initiate to mature to the point where he can receive the black carapace. And the first geneseed matures in roughly 12 years.

So, however many initiates a chapter begins with, they can, using only the maturing geneseed from those initiates, double their numbers every 12 years assuming no losses.

So if you started with 10 initiates, and only had their 10 sets of geneseed, and doubled their numbers every 12 years.

10-20-40-80-160-320-640-1280

You would be back up to full chapter strength in 84 years, assuming no losses or failures.

Assuming a 10% failure rate.

9-16-28-50-90-162-291-523-941

With 10% failure you'd be back up to full strength in 94 years.

From the implication in the fluff, a 10% failure rate of Initiates is phenomenally good.

Indeed, but increasing the rate doesn't significantly alter the recovery time. Its right around 100ish years give or take a few decades. And that is assuming you only had 10 sets of geneseed to start with, which would be disastrous.

Most likely, a chapter that gets a large portion of its number wiped out, but still survived, likely has a ton of geneseed to play with. So its more a question of how many initiates can you train at once and what does your equipment supply look like.

True... which reminds me that the Space Wolves, after the Months of Shame and the Battle of the Fang, should have died out centuries ago. Fenris doesn't have the population to keep feeding to the Chapter, let alone to support a full Chapter-and-a-half of Marines.

I'm trying to write for a crusading fleet-based Chapter who are not the type to "take breaks", so that would more than likely extend this estimated 100-year recovery time wuite a bit.

 Psienesis wrote:
True... which reminds me that the Space Wolves, after the Months of Shame and the Battle of the Fang, should have died out centuries ago. Fenris doesn't have the population to keep feeding to the Chapter, let alone to support a full Chapter-and-a-half of Marines.

Sure Fenris has the population. You wouldnt need very many people to keep the wolves supplied.

If you have a population of 300k people, and a population growth of 1%, that means there are 3000 people at puberty that you can choose from each year. Half of those will be women, so you are left with 1500 people a year to pick from. Maybe a third are fit. 500 left. 2/3 will fail the process. That means you get 166 initiates a year without effecting the population of the planet.

In theory, it's nearly impossible for a Chapter to "go extinct". Every Marine can theoretically make 2 replacement Marines.

The Chapter tithes 10% of its geneseed to the AdMech for "reasons", however, if we were to say the average Space Marine, with battle casualties, lives 200 years, would generate 10000 new sets of geneseed every 1000 years, 9000 of which would be kept by the chapter, and 4000 of which would be left over after replacing battle casualties (200 years each, 5 times for 1000 Marines of a Chapter).

So, for every 1000 years a Chapter exists, there are 4000 surplus sets of geneseed being stored. Now, we know that 100% of recruits don't survive to Marinehood and not all corpses are retrievable, but even if we set an (unbelievably) high rate of failure/loss at like 50%, there will still be 1500 surplus sets of geneseed being stored by a Chapter for every 1000 years of its existence. A First or Second Founding Chapter would therefore have between 15,000 and 40,000 extra sets of geneseed.

And given the fact that it takes ten years, give or take, to recruit, indoctrinate and train a Space Marine, a chapter can't simply start making a new one when they lose one. There would be a constant pipeline set up for recruits, and they would be scattered all along the development process. Even losing the entire 10th company, a Chapter would still every recruit ages 8-14 or so who hadn't even gotten to the Scouts yet and were still on the Chapter's home world, theoretically.

So, for a chapter to die, it pretty much has to lose all of its Marines, recruits, and homeworld/genestash all at once or in close succession.

Otherwise, the rebuilding process should only take as long as it takes to find and recruit the required number of compatible recruits since the genestock to make them into Marines would already exist.


However, logistics and other matters of supply chain management are boring, and not nearly as dramatic as "On the brink of extinction!"