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Yes, it's that time of the year when AlmightyWalrus complains about the BT Chapter Tactics again!

Considering the power level of pretty much any of the other Chapter Tactics in the book, BT is rubbish. I suggest the following changes:

Chapter Tactics: Black Templars

Suffer not the Witch to Live
All models with Chapter Tactics: Black Templars have the Adamantium Will special rule. Librarians may not be taken in a detachment using Chapter Tactics: Black Templars.

Same as "Holy Crusaders" and "The Lost Librarius" in the current book, except no Crusader special rule.

Righteous Zeal
Any time an unengaged unit with Chapter Tactics: Black Templars suffers one or more unsaved wound(s) that unit may immediately make a 3" consolidation move towards an enemy unit (i.e. if it moves, the unit as a whole must end up closer to a specific enemy unit than it was before).

Essentially the old Righteous Zeal on steroids; kill one Neophyte and the unit moves forward, but now with the possibility of triggering more than once a turn.

Accept Any Challenge
All models with Chapter Tactics: Black Templars rerolls all failed to-hit rolls in the Assault Phase. Models that would get to reroll all hits in the Assault Phase due to another special rule (including, but not limited to, Zealot) instead may reroll both to-hit and to-wound rolls that Assault Phase.

The old Accept Any Challenge, again on steroids. Considering Ultramarines can get rerolls for a turn, the Ultramarines actually have a better Chapter Tactic for close combat than the current Black Templars, and that's not counting the two other Doctrines the Ultramarines have up their sleeves.


The above suggestions may seem like huge buffs, and that's because they are. They're also all buffs to close combat in an edition that favours shooting unless you've got something like TWC, which just isn't present in the current Space Marine Codex. Considering how powerful psykers are this edition, not being allowed to take Librarians, arguably the most powerful non-named HQ choice in the book, really ought to come with some sort of compensation. Formation-wise the fact that the Gladius doesn't work with Crusader Squads further kicks the Black Templars in the proverbial groin.

Looks pretty reasonable to me, certainly less situational than the current CT they have right now, you can actually build an army around their chapter tactics besides spamming crusader squads in LRC, which, despite being fun, is a little monotonous after a while.

Seems reasonable enough to me. And I'm an Ultramarines player

Kinda crazy brutal, and not in a good way.

It is pretty strong, but I think that's counterbalanced by the fact that the real nastiness only works in melee (though that consolidate move could possibly be exploited, but probably not predictably). That, and the fact that Templars can't cash in on the Gladius Strike Force without giving up on their Crusader Squads, which means they get to have free transports XOR good CC troops.

That said, I've favored a house rule for the Gladius that reads "detachments using Black Templars chapter tactics may take Crusader Squads in any situation where they may take Tactical Squads", then make sure to reiterate that free transports covers Rhinos, Razorbacks and Drop Pods only. Free Land Raiders would be sick and wrong, obviously.

I'd change the 3" consolidation move every time something dies to "at the end of the opponent's shooting phase" + current bonuses. Cause as is it'd be crazy powerful vs msu.

Free land raiders would be insane, 250 point free transport. So much av14!

 koooaei wrote:
I'd change the 3" consolidation move every time something dies to "at the end of the opponent's shooting phase" + current bonuses. Cause as is it'd be crazy powerful vs msu.

That's kinda the point.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'd change the 3" consolidation move every time something dies to "at the end of the opponent's shooting phase" + current bonuses. Cause as is it'd be crazy powerful vs msu.

That's kinda the point.

... To make it broken?

Well... GG?

 raverrn wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'd change the 3" consolidation move every time something dies to "at the end of the opponent's shooting phase" + current bonuses. Cause as is it'd be crazy powerful vs msu.

That's kinda the point.

... To make it broken?

Well... GG?

Not really, it forces your opponent to re-evaluate their target priorities to try and wipe out a BT unit rather than attempt to just cripple it and I personally I think its a cool way to mitigate removing casualties from the front because this way shooting at BT doesn't make it any harder for them to move any closer for charge ranges. Don't forget, BT are still using MEQ units and the ability only triggers when they start dying so its not as if though they get this just from being shot at, chances are that if they do move a significant amount that they've lost more than half their guys anyways. It's a cool melee version of overwatch: you shoot, I charge in even faster!

 Grimskul wrote:

 raverrn wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'd change the 3" consolidation move every time something dies to "at the end of the opponent's shooting phase" + current bonuses. Cause as is it'd be crazy powerful vs msu.

That's kinda the point.

... To make it broken?

Well... GG?

Not really, it forces your opponent to re-evaluate their target priorities to try and wipe out a BT unit rather than attempt to just cripple it and I personally I think its a cool way to mitigate removing casualties from the front because this way shooting at BT doesn't make it any harder for them to move any closer for charge ranges. Don't forget, BT are still using MEQ units and the ability only triggers when they start dying so its not as if though they get this just from being shot at, chances are that if they do move a significant amount that they've lost more than half their guys anyways. It's a cool melee version of overwatch: you shoot, I charge in even faster!

It's an insane amount of free movement, and it makes little sense with other game rules. Why do two combat squaded Marine squads give you 6" of movement, but an entire Tau Hunter Contingent give you only 3"?

And I didn't mention 'Accept Any Challenge' because ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

It' freakin' ludicrously overpowered. The Salamanders get the ability to re-roll ONE miss on ONE model out of a unit, clearly the Templars should re-roll ALL their misses from ALL their models and ALSO THE WOUNDS TOO BECAUSE WHY NOT?

 raverrn wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 raverrn wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'd change the 3" consolidation move every time something dies to "at the end of the opponent's shooting phase" + current bonuses. Cause as is it'd be crazy powerful vs msu.

That's kinda the point.

... To make it broken?

Well... GG?

Not really, it forces your opponent to re-evaluate their target priorities to try and wipe out a BT unit rather than attempt to just cripple it and I personally I think its a cool way to mitigate removing casualties from the front because this way shooting at BT doesn't make it any harder for them to move any closer for charge ranges. Don't forget, BT are still using MEQ units and the ability only triggers when they start dying so its not as if though they get this just from being shot at, chances are that if they do move a significant amount that they've lost more than half their guys anyways. It's a cool melee version of overwatch: you shoot, I charge in even faster!

It's an insane amount of free movement, and it makes little sense with other game rules. Why do two combat squaded Marine squads give you 6" of movement, but an entire Tau Hunter Contingent give you only 3"?

Because Tau ignore rules all the time.

 raverrn wrote:

And I didn't mention 'Accept Any Challenge' because ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

Yes, Black Templars were really wrecking face in 5th edition with those re-rolls to hit in close combat! So broken it's unbelievable, right? We've LITERALLY had rerolls to hit in CC before, and it didn't break the game. We've LITERALLY been able to move after being shot at, and it didn't break the game. Yes, these are more powerful versions of the old rules, but considering how much stronger shooting has become, melee needs to up the ante.

You're not even arguing WHY this would break the game, you're just saying it's OP without backing it up. You're going to have to do better than that.

I would suggest changing accept any challenge to just being on the first round of a combat, rather than all the time.

As for rerolling to wound... I don't see why Black Templar should be equal to the 5th edition Death Company across the board for being near Grimaldus or having a chaplain with them,

 Crazyterran wrote:
I would suggest changing accept any challenge to just being on the first round of a combat, rather than all the time.

As for rerolling to wound... I don't see why Black Templar should be equal to the 5th edition Death Company across the board for being near Grimaldus or having a chaplain with them,

There's no point to Chaplains (and almost no point to Helbrecht) as they're currently written if there's going to be rerolls regardless.

5th edition Death Company would still have FNP, WS5, Relentless, and Rage, so it's hardly being as good "across the board".


I do not see why people are so afraid of perma-rerolls in melee; the only new melee units that have entered the picture since the 4th edition Codex are Assault Centurions (who are... lacking, at best), Ironclad Dreadnoughts (who are perfectly fine, but hardly OMGWTFBBQBONKERS!!1!), and Honour Guard (see comment on Ironclad). What is arguably the best melee unit in the Codex, the TH/SS Terminator, has actually gotten WORSE since 5th edition! What is it people are so afraid that Black Templars are going to do? If this were Space Wolves or Necrons, sure, I'd understand it, but deathstars already get rerolls to hit from bringing Divination (you know, that thing Templars can't take without allies) AND they're getting it at range to boot!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I would suggest changing accept any challenge to just being on the first round of a combat, rather than all the time.

As for rerolling to wound... I don't see why Black Templar should be equal to the 5th edition Death Company across the board for being near Grimaldus or having a chaplain with them,

There's no point to Chaplains (and almost no point to Helbrecht) as they're currently written if there's going to be rerolls regardless.

5th edition Death Company would still have FNP, WS5, Relentless, and Rage, so it's hardly being as good "across the board".


I do not see why people are so afraid of perma-rerolls in melee; the only new melee units that have entered the picture since the 4th edition Codex are Assault Centurions (who are... lacking, at best), Ironclad Dreadnoughts (who are perfectly fine, but hardly OMGWTFBBQBONKERS!!1!), and Honour Guard (see comment on Ironclad). What is arguably the best melee unit in the Codex, the TH/SS Terminator, has actually gotten WORSE since 5th edition! What is it people are so afraid that Black Templars are going to do? If this were Space Wolves or Necrons, sure, I'd understand it, but deathstars already get rerolls to hit from bringing Divination (you know, that thing Templars can't take without allies) AND they're getting it at range to boot!

I think it's precisely because its so rare nowadays that people have forgotten that it used to be more common back in the day (and weren't OP by any means), for example the recent nid dex took away the re-roll ability of 2 pairs of scything talons which made CC Carnifexes reliable since they could get past their abysmal WS3 via the re-rolls. People are so used to seeing subpar CC units nowadays that its considered the norm rather than the clear imbalance it really is. So whenever tries bringing up assaulting from stationary rhinos, or from reserves like outflanking/infiltrating people scream bloody hell since their beloved shooty units have to actually prioritize shooting (despite all the buffs like overwatch/new way of casualty removing from the front) rather than just point-and-click like it is with a lot of the power units.