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Ych. What a horrible rule. I feel embarrassed playing Tzeentch just because I end up paying 15pts on an icon that gives only my Bolters SOUL BLAZE. How can we change it?

A quick fix is just to let it stack instead of being stuck with only one counter after being wounded by a weapon with soul blaze. So make it so you put a counter on a unit every time it takes a wound from a weapon with soul blaze. Then at the end of the turn, you a roll for each of these counters to see whether or not they get burned by the D3 S4 AP5 ignores cover hits. Helps clear out hordes as it should.

Personally, I think the issue with soul blaze is how it doesn't represent ethereal fire to me, just extra flamer hits which barely ignores most armour. If we don't go through the stacking route, units that suffer soul blaze have the counter as usual and on a 4+ the unit suffers D3 wounds with no armour or cover saves allowed. This way it gives it some measure of utility against MC's and heavier units while not being too crazy since it requires you to get a wound in first, so it acts as more of a finisher rather than a weapon in of itself.

I wished it messed with leadership checks. Like if your unit is on fire, shouldn't they have to make a morale check or do nothing? Also this soul blaze ignores fearless, and atsknf and stubborn. Your soul is on fire! Being fearless dont help. You are forced to make a morale check in the move phase and failing stops movement. Another in the psychic phase and failing stops them from generating wc and manifest powers. Another jn the shooting phase and failing stops you from shooting. Finally the last one on the assault phase and failure stops you from making any attacks. 4 checks for the next turn and thats it and it ends. If the unit gets hit again with soul blaze, they have to make all 4 morale checks on the following turn.

That is how you beef up soul blaze.

Fearless Troops move 6" in that direction!
Oh crap I cant! My soul is on fire! I got to stop drop and roll!

Fearless Troops generate this psychic power!
I cant! My soul is on fire! I cant concentrate!

Fearless troops, shoot the enemy!
I cant! My souls is on fire! I cant see with all this blazing soul in my face!

Fearless troops, assault the enemy!
I cant! My soul is on fire! I cant fan away the flames!

I always thought the rule was overly convoluted and needlessly complicated. The same effect it is trying to achieve could be achieved through extra attack generation, which would cut down on the paperwork/counters on the field. This would also allow Soul Blaze to be more varied, having Strength and AP equal to the weapon being used.

Another idea would be to simply allow To Wound rolls of 6 to generate an additional attack which resolves at Strength 4, AP 5 and hit automatically.

Yet another idea would be to make Soul Blaze kind of a package deal, perhaps making it give the weapon Blind, Ignores Cover and forces successful invulnerable save to be re-rolls. Or perhaps making the weapon be able to ignore invulnerable saves that are worse than its AP value.

Just some ideas.

What about making soul blaze a debuff until next turn and any flame attack or weapon with soul blaze hitting a unit with soul blaze gets something like shred or rending.

 Filch wrote:
I wished it messed with leadership checks. Like if your unit is on fire, shouldn't they have to make a morale check or do nothing? Also this soul blaze ignores fearless, and atsknf and stubborn. Your soul is on fire! Being fearless dont help. You are forced to make a morale check in the move phase and failing stops movement. Another in the psychic phase and failing stops them from generating wc and manifest powers. Another jn the shooting phase and failing stops you from shooting. Finally the last one on the assault phase and failure stops you from making any attacks. 4 checks for the next turn and thats it and it ends. If the unit gets hit again with soul blaze, they have to make all 4 morale checks on the following turn.

That is how you beef up soul blaze.

Fearless Troops move 6" in that direction!
Oh crap I cant! My soul is on fire! I got to stop drop and roll!

Fearless Troops generate this psychic power!
I cant! My soul is on fire! I cant concentrate!

Fearless troops, shoot the enemy!
I cant! My souls is on fire! I cant see with all this blazing soul in my face!

Fearless troops, assault the enemy!
I cant! My soul is on fire! I cant fan away the flames!

I'm all for pumping up soul blaze, but forcing 4 checks on all the units on fire every turn they are on fire would slow down the game significantly. Imagine having to do that against a Tzeentch army with Icons. You would be rolling moral checks on all your units every phase, every turn. It would get kinda ridiculous fast. If you would want to go that route, wouldn't it just be easier to make them all get pinned at the beginning of the movement phase if they fail the moral check. I personally don't see why having your soul on fire will distract a unit from moving down the field, but won't bother them enough for them to take a calm calculated shot. Also, while I agree that in general that more things should effect fearless, ATSKNF, and stubborn units, this should not be one of them. Not much short of a bolter lobotomy should discourage a khorne berserker charging in, frothing at the mouth. I doubt being on fire, soul.and all, would do much more than tickle for them at that point..

Want to fix soulblaze? Treat it like tesla, with the exception of instead of 6's to hit, its on 6's to WOUND, treat is like 3 wounds. That way it represents the body AND soul being on fire. No convoluted counter management to see if your still on fire or not every turn. This way template weapons with soulblaze are not useless, and 1k sons are halfway playable with having serious wound potential. Sure, heldrake gets better, but it's the only thing that even skirts the line of OP for CSM. I honestly don't know what other armies use soulblaze besides Chaos, so I don't know how it would affect them.

Edit: Added something constructive instead of just nitpicking.

eh, my bad idea.

How anout just scrap soul blaze all together.

By no means was it a bad idea Filch. I think your idea has a ton of merit, just needs a little finetuning. I also agree that more things should be susceptible to LD checks in general, The problem there doesn't so much deal with the checks as it does with the prevalence of "fearless-like" USR's. There are so many rules that prevent LD checks that basically do the same thing minus a minor difference here or there that it's pointless to try and come up with any kind of rule that forces LD checks. Just off the top of my head, I can think of ATSNKF, Fearless, Stubborn, and Zealot. There are probably more I can't think of.

While I can totally accept there being one less crappy rule out there, I kinda like soulblaze. If for no other reason, I like the idea of lighting someone's soul on fire. I just want it to be represented better. Which is why i suggested just more flat out wounds instead of the slow heartburn it currently gives. I also dislike more counter management. Between counting wounds, HPs,smoke deployed, and weapon destroyed results. I don't really want to remember which people are on fire too.

I also strongly dislike the proliferation of unnecessary special rules in 40k. But as long as Soul Blaze is going to be around, I agree it should actually be the target's soul on fire and the hits should somehow be leadership based (and also not leave counters).

How about for every unsaved wound a unit takes from Soul Blaze weapons, it automatically suffers an additional S8 hit with no saves of any kind allowed, rolling to wound against the model's leadership instead of toughness (and using the leadership for instant death, so this won't be wiping out characters).

This gives a boost against lower quality hordes but is still useful against high armor value targets, and fits the description better. I think I'd pay 15 points for that.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
I also strongly dislike the proliferation of unnecessary special rules in 40k. But as long as Soul Blaze is going to be around, I agree it should actually be the target's soul on fire and the hits should somehow be leadership based (and also not leave counters).

How about for every unsaved wound a unit takes from Soul Blaze weapons, it automatically suffers an additional S8 hit with no saves of any kind allowed, rolling to wound against the model's leadership instead of toughness (and using the leadership for instant death, so this won't be wiping out characters).

This gives a boost against lower quality hordes but is still useful against high armor value targets, and fits the description better. I think I'd pay 15 points for that.

I think this is actually a best of both worlds solution. Less counter management, more wounds to wipe out hordes. I'm good with that. The only thing I didn't quite understand is after unsaved wounds are taken. They take an additional set of S8 wounds equal to what they lost against their leadership instead of toughness to prevent instant death, for example, its S8 to LD9, so 5+ to wound with no saves? Or was it they take a leadership test and if failed they take the same amount of wounds they just didn't save against at S8 against their toughness, meaning if they may be doubled out and ID? I think i understand the concept, just need some clarification.

How much of a damage boost do we want soul blaze to do?

CalgarsPimpHand's suggestion deals 83%, 67%, 50%, 33% and 17% extra wounds vs Ld6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 models respectively (not factoring in FNP or RP). I am assuming that one would roll to wound against majority leadership, so S8 vs a unit of tac marines (Ld8) would be an extra wound with no saves on a 4+.

This deals more damage vs common horde units and less vs more elite troops, but is it too much? Versus most armies troops it will do 50% or more extra wounds. That might be fine on Pyromancy powers but could actually be too good on things like Mandrakes or units with an Icon of Flame.

Mr_Piddlez's suggestion of 2 extra wounds on a 6 to wound seems to do more relative damage vs higher toughness targets. If the to wound roll is a 3+, 1 in 4 successful wounds would proc 2 more wounds for a total boost of 50% more wounds. If the to wound roll is a 4+ that relative boost increases to 66% more wounds. If the to-wound roll is a 6+ you are doing 200% more damage! This seems to do more damage vs elite stuff and less versus low T opponents which might be counter to what was intended.

WangoFett wrote:
How much of a damage boost do we want soul blaze to do?

Mr_Piddlez's suggestion of 2 extra wounds on a 6 to wound seems to do more relative damage vs higher toughness targets. If the to wound roll is a 3+, 1 in 4 successful wounds would proc 2 more wounds for a total boost of 50% more wounds. If the to wound roll is a 4+ that relative boost increases to 66% more wounds. If the to-wound roll is a 6+ you are doing 200% more damage! This seems to do more damage vs elite stuff and less versus low T opponents which might be counter to what was intended.

While a 200% damage increase sounds pretty impressive. Your still looking at along a 16.7% chance of doing that crazy amount of damage. with an 83% chance of nothing at all. So you're already taking a gamble using your soul blaze weapons against that target. Especially when there are probably better targets available. While I agree that the original rule was intended to target small hordes, it was pretty inefficient at that. I also have no issue with soulblaze actually hurting elite units. Now 1k sons can actually hurt those bike and wolf stars more effectively. Now a heldrake with a baleflamer can do a whole 3 wounds against a wraithknight instead of 1. You still only have a 1 in 6 chance of hurting it. But its possible, even after FnP, you'll probably do at least one wound.

As of right now, Soul Blaze is up there with Fear on the list of pointless rules. Which is sad considering how cool it could be.

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
I think this is actually a best of both worlds solution. Less counter management, more wounds to wipe out hordes. I'm good with that. The only thing I didn't quite understand is after unsaved wounds are taken. They take an additional set of S8 wounds equal to what they lost against their leadership instead of toughness to prevent instant death, for example, its S8 to LD9, so 5+ to wound with no saves? Or was it they take a leadership test and if failed they take the same amount of wounds they just didn't save against at S8 against their toughness, meaning if they may be doubled out and ID? I think i understand the concept, just need some clarification.

Thanks! You had it right the first time, the idea is for each unsaved wound from a Soul Blaze weapon, you hit them again with a S8 weapon, but swap their majority Leadership for their Toughness. So a LD 7 model would be wounded on a 3+, for example, no saves of any kind allowed. ID would be impossible unless you could reduce a target's Ld to 4 or lower somehow.

And if that seems too strong, you could reduce it to S7.

Soul Blaze

Place a small blast template on one model that was wounded by a soul blaze weapon. No scatter. The models under the template makes a toughness check, if they fail they are wounded. Saves applied.

This is meant to be weak vs MC and Heavy armor and not hurt vehicles.

It should hurt weak infantry with 4+ armor.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
I think this is actually a best of both worlds solution. Less counter management, more wounds to wipe out hordes. I'm good with that. The only thing I didn't quite understand is after unsaved wounds are taken. They take an additional set of S8 wounds equal to what they lost against their leadership instead of toughness to prevent instant death, for example, its S8 to LD9, so 5+ to wound with no saves? Or was it they take a leadership test and if failed they take the same amount of wounds they just didn't save against at S8 against their toughness, meaning if they may be doubled out and ID? I think i understand the concept, just need some clarification.

Thanks! You had it right the first time, the idea is for each unsaved wound from a Soul Blaze weapon, you hit them again with a S8 weapon, but swap their majority Leadership for their Toughness. So a LD 7 model would be wounded on a 3+, for example, no saves of any kind allowed. ID would be impossible unless you could reduce a target's Ld to 4 or lower somehow.

And if that seems too strong, you could reduce it to S7.

Sounds fair, Is it always S8 or is it based on the profile of the weapon? For example, a baleflamer is S6 so wounds on 5+, or a 1k son bolters are S4, so 6s. Or is it always S8 so it always has a chance to hit?

Filch wrote:Soul Blaze

Place a small blast template on one model that was wounded by a soul blaze weapon. No scatter. The models under the template makes a toughness check, if they fail they are wounded. Saves applied.

This is meant to be weak vs MC and Heavy armor and not hurt vehicles.

It should hurt weak infantry with 4+ armor.

I like the idea of a toughness check, Don't know how I feel about the small blast. In CC it could be good, similar to how Typhus's Destroyer Hive is. But in ranged combat, which involves most soulblaze weapons, it'll be pretty meh at most. Maybe forcing 2 checks just because of unit spacing.

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:


Sounds fair, Is it always S8 or is it based on the profile of the weapon? For example, a baleflamer is S6 so wounds on 5+, or a 1k son bolters are S4, so 6s. Or is it always S8 so it always has a chance to hit?

I think it needs a fixed strength if you want to use Leadership as the Toughness value, weapon strengths are too weak to be effective. Since we're ignoring all saves (your soul is on fire, not your body, or am I misremembering the fluff?) S7 might be the best place to start.

I say base it off space marine majority leadership of 8. Just like how GW bases everything off space marines (though poorly), so S8 to LD8. So 4+ to wound. 50% chance to wound. I'm ok with that. IF it feels too powerful, just make it a set S8 AP2 Ignores cover, allowing Invulnerable saves, FNP, and RP? So it still bypasses armor, but lets people still get their backup saves. Meaning it still hurts basic troops well enough, but wont eat ICs alive.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
I think this is actually a best of both worlds solution. Less counter management, more wounds to wipe out hordes. I'm good with that. The only thing I didn't quite understand is after unsaved wounds are taken. They take an additional set of S8 wounds equal to what they lost against their leadership instead of toughness to prevent instant death, for example, its S8 to LD9, so 5+ to wound with no saves? Or was it they take a leadership test and if failed they take the same amount of wounds they just didn't save against at S8 against their toughness, meaning if they may be doubled out and ID? I think i understand the concept, just need some clarification.

Thanks! You had it right the first time, the idea is for each unsaved wound from a Soul Blaze weapon, you hit them again with a S8 weapon, but swap their majority Leadership for their Toughness. So a LD 7 model would be wounded on a 3+, for example, no saves of any kind allowed. ID would be impossible unless you could reduce a target's Ld to 4 or lower somehow.

And if that seems too strong, you could reduce it to S7.

You mean S5 to avoid instant death, right?

 Bobthehero wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
I think this is actually a best of both worlds solution. Less counter management, more wounds to wipe out hordes. I'm good with that. The only thing I didn't quite understand is after unsaved wounds are taken. They take an additional set of S8 wounds equal to what they lost against their leadership instead of toughness to prevent instant death, for example, its S8 to LD9, so 5+ to wound with no saves? Or was it they take a leadership test and if failed they take the same amount of wounds they just didn't save against at S8 against their toughness, meaning if they may be doubled out and ID? I think i understand the concept, just need some clarification.

Thanks! You had it right the first time, the idea is for each unsaved wound from a Soul Blaze weapon, you hit them again with a S8 weapon, but swap their majority Leadership for their Toughness. So a LD 7 model would be wounded on a 3+, for example, no saves of any kind allowed. ID would be impossible unless you could reduce a target's Ld to 4 or lower somehow.

And if that seems too strong, you could reduce it to S7.

You mean S5 to avoid instant death, right?

No, because it's against Leadership not Toughness.

I say resolve it like Psychic Shriek.

At the end of a shooting phase all units with a Soul Blaze counter take a leadership test on 3d6. They then take as many wounds as they failed the leadership test by.

Soul blaze might be one of the worst rules in 40k. I hate the delayed dmg mechanism, it clogs up the game while it doesn't really affect it that much. My suggestion would be just to apply the dmg effect immediately after the shots are fired combined with a pinned test if they got damaged by the extra dmg.