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 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psychopski wrote:
I see some similarities between our own world history, Ancient Rome, the Pyramids of Egypt versus 40K, lost knowledge and the Adeptus Mechanicus. Also the similarities between the fall of the Roman Empire leading us into the Dark ages... compared to the events that occurred in the "pre 40K" universe that lead humanity into "Old Night". A great power falls, many lines of communications are cut, much knowledge is lost, war and Chaos follows.

As far as our world history, there's no telling how much knowledge was lost when the Library at Alexandria, Egypt burned. We are still perplexed and wonder exactly how the Pyramids were constructed. Many 3rd world countries didn't have an effective system of running potable water or subterranean sewers until the 1960s, a system which the Romans had perfected almost 2000 years prior.

The Dark Ages is a complete fallacy. No knowledge was lost, many technologies marched onward without any hiccups, education continued to spread, and the Monks preserved any knowledge in danger of being lost by copying everything for future generations.

Society did suffer a huge setback. This can be determined quite simply by the lack of written records from the period when compared to the previous and following ones. There were also no longer any major cities, grand architecture or art aside from the occasional bracelet. Virtually all people in the Dark Ages were farmers living in wooden huts, even the kings. Knowledge and education was lost, simply because libraries and schools disappeared. Monasteries remained centres of knowledge and education, but they were not able to preserve all knowledge from the Romans. This is widely accepted historical fact.
I'd like to see your sources for such grand claims like that no knowledge was lost and education continued to spread.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psychopski wrote:
I see some similarities between our own world history, Ancient Rome, the Pyramids of Egypt versus 40K, lost knowledge and the Adeptus Mechanicus. Also the similarities between the fall of the Roman Empire leading us into the Dark ages... compared to the events that occurred in the "pre 40K" universe that lead humanity into "Old Night". A great power falls, many lines of communications are cut, much knowledge is lost, war and Chaos follows.

As far as our world history, there's no telling how much knowledge was lost when the Library at Alexandria, Egypt burned. We are still perplexed and wonder exactly how the Pyramids were constructed. Many 3rd world countries didn't have an effective system of running potable water or subterranean sewers until the 1960s, a system which the Romans had perfected almost 2000 years prior.

The Dark Ages is a complete fallacy. No knowledge was lost, many technologies marched onward without any hiccups, education continued to spread, and the Monks preserved any knowledge in danger of being lost by copying everything for future generations.

No, it's not. While they may not be as bad as people generally think, saying that nothing was lost during the time is just wrong. I could name multiple technologies that were completely lost for hundreds of years in the West. Yes, the Monks did preserve alot of knowledge, but that doesnt mean it was utilized or spread, or that they were able to preserve all or even most of it.

 Psienesis wrote:
Except the degradation of technology is Imperium-wide, not just that coming out of Mars.

The Tau are not really "advancing", not really. They build bigger versions of things they already have. That's a microscopic increase when compared to, say, going from firing a ferrous slug out of a ship-borne railgun to firing a singularity charge.

Not true. According to the Tau Codex, they are in the process of developing the same tech that allow the Necrons to use the raw amount of energy they do-n by taking it directly from stars. It's not there yet, but yes it is progressing.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psychopski wrote:
I see some similarities between our own world history, Ancient Rome, the Pyramids of Egypt versus 40K, lost knowledge and the Adeptus Mechanicus. Also the similarities between the fall of the Roman Empire leading us into the Dark ages... compared to the events that occurred in the "pre 40K" universe that lead humanity into "Old Night". A great power falls, many lines of communications are cut, much knowledge is lost, war and Chaos follows.

As far as our world history, there's no telling how much knowledge was lost when the Library at Alexandria, Egypt burned. We are still perplexed and wonder exactly how the Pyramids were constructed. Many 3rd world countries didn't have an effective system of running potable water or subterranean sewers until the 1960s, a system which the Romans had perfected almost 2000 years prior.

The Dark Ages is a complete fallacy. No knowledge was lost, many technologies marched onward without any hiccups, education continued to spread, and the Monks preserved any knowledge in danger of being lost by copying everything for future generations.

I am not sure about that - the world post Rome in Europe at least was a very different place - the populations were much smaller - especially in the towns and cities, the roads were not maintained to the same degree, most of the comforts of civilisations went - concrete for building, decent sewers, clean(ish) water supplies, interior heating, baths etc were lost or became symbols of decadence - with the reduction in basic hygiene - towns became even more dangerous. Large cities were not overly great under the Empire but the period after meant they became very unhealthy - which persisted for very many centuries in the West.

Medical science was restricted and although some things were preserved by the Church some were not. The rising nations of the Middle East also preserved quite a bit of knowledge - I would say more than the West - and in fact these are imported back through later trading links / and or warfare leading to the same..

The Church did not copy everything - there are still vast gaps in our knowledge of the writers of antiquity - many of their volumes are gone after the loss of many of the great libraries.

I worship many of the machines in my life. If I thought offering the tractor sacrifices would make it run better I would. If it wasn't for a background in science they would be indistinguishable from magic for me. The mechanicum no longer conducts scientific research as we understand it I think. They know the equations work but have not idea why they work.

One of my favorite bit of fluff about this is Tau capturing a warp drive and some of the workers who worked to maintain it. After interogating them to figure out how it works all the workers could tell them is the chants and memorize rituals they were taught and had no actually knowledge how it worked.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One of my favorite bit of fluff about this is Tau capturing a warp drive and some of the workers who worked to maintain it. After interogating them to figure out how it works all the workers could tell them is the chants and memorize rituals they were taught and had no actually knowledge how it worked.

The knowledge is contained within the chants and rituals. What better way is there to preserve knowledge than to immortalize it in religious cants (especiallly when knowledge is being lost at a prodigious rate)? It's akin to a Kata in Chinese Kempo (Katas were used by Shaolin Monks to condense huge amounts of teachings into relatively short periods of time). In Chinese Kempo, a Kata (or form) is a collection of seemingly random moves intended to teach the student certain aspects of fighting. For instance, in the Kata known as "2 Kata", you are taught rotational torque, how to use a neck-lock to take somebody down, and how to use the Crane's Wings technique, among other things. When I first learned the form, I had no idea of the value of the knowledge it contained. After years and years of practicing it, I came to find more and more new things contained within it (it's almost like reading scriptures; there's always something new if you're actively studying the symbolism). As somebody who just looks at the form, and doesn't think about the lessons contained within it, it just seems like a pointless ritual. However, it contains some of the most valuable teachings in the Art, if you're willing to look. On the same hand, the Mechanicum's endless ritual contains the lessons of how the technology works. The instruction manuals are effectively preserved via religious chants and the like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psychopski wrote:
I see some similarities between our own world history, Ancient Rome, the Pyramids of Egypt versus 40K, lost knowledge and the Adeptus Mechanicus. Also the similarities between the fall of the Roman Empire leading us into the Dark ages... compared to the events that occurred in the "pre 40K" universe that lead humanity into "Old Night". A great power falls, many lines of communications are cut, much knowledge is lost, war and Chaos follows.

As far as our world history, there's no telling how much knowledge was lost when the Library at Alexandria, Egypt burned. We are still perplexed and wonder exactly how the Pyramids were constructed. Many 3rd world countries didn't have an effective system of running potable water or subterranean sewers until the 1960s, a system which the Romans had perfected almost 2000 years prior.

The Dark Ages is a complete fallacy. No knowledge was lost, many technologies marched onward without any hiccups, education continued to spread, and the Monks preserved any knowledge in danger of being lost by copying everything for future generations.

I am not sure about that - the world post Rome in Europe at least was a very different place - the populations were much smaller - especially in the towns and cities, the roads were not maintained to the same degree, most of the comforts of civilisations went - concrete for building, decent sewers, clean(ish) water supplies, interior heating, baths etc were lost or became symbols of decadence - with the reduction in basic hygiene - towns became even more dangerous. Large cities were not overly great under the Empire but the period after meant they became very unhealthy - which persisted for very many centuries in the West.

Medical science was restricted and although some things were preserved by the Church some were not. The rising nations of the Middle East also preserved quite a bit of knowledge - I would say more than the West - and in fact these are imported back through later trading links / and or warfare leading to the same..

The Church did not copy everything - there are still vast gaps in our knowledge of the writers of antiquity - many of their volumes are gone after the loss of many of the great libraries.

I love how you seem to think that "the world" contained nothing but Europe during the Middle Ages . The Chinese were, in fact, continuing to develop during this time period, as were the Muslims, and the Hindi, as well as many other cultures. Just because your locale was in a period of regression =/= the rest of the world was in a period of regression.

Edit: also, the "Dark Ages" only lasted a few centuries. After that it was considered "medieval", as the people began progressing in the areas of agricultural technology, culture, etc.

Actually, I can distinctly see that he said "the world post Rome in Europe".
Regardless though, it is doubtless that the fall of the Roman empire affected the entire world, not just the West itself. These effects may not have been immediate, but they certainly happened. Recall that if the Roman empire (as opposed to just its weakened Eastern half) had still existed in the 600s, there is a good chance that Islam would not have.

China and the loose collection of Islamic kingdoms are also not good analogs to the Roman Empire.

China was advancing, but they very quickly got to a place of stagnation and isolationism and then ceased all forward progress till European powers beat them over the head with some of their own inventions.

The Islamic kingdoms were very advanced in many areas, particularly mathematics. However they fell into religious and political infighting and lost nearly all of these advances, which were only preserved because they got exported before there was total collapse.

 Grey Templar wrote:
China and the loose collection of Islamic kingdoms are also not good analogs to the Roman Empire.

China was advancing, but they very quickly got to a place of stagnation and isolationism and then ceased all forward progress till European powers beat them over the head with some of their own inventions.

The Islamic kingdoms were very advanced in many areas, particularly mathematics. However they fell into religious and political infighting and lost nearly all of these advances, which were only preserved because they got exported before there was total collapse.

Even the Islamic Kingdoms have Rome to thank for alot of that. Much of the bases for Middle Eastern technology and smarts came from the Romans and was then preserved and built on by the Muslims.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Monks preserved any knowledge in danger of being lost by copying everything for future generations.

Aye, they copied it. But for a long time there was no one - not even the monks - who could use all of that copied knowledge. There's manuscripts where entire pages have been slavishly copied because they were in the original text but no one could read the language (doodled in the margin you can faintly make out "it's Greek, don't read it").

The AdMech has a different problem. They know the language(s) but they lack the original texts.

 Jollydevil wrote:
Actually, I can distinctly see that he said "the world post Rome in Europe".
Regardless though, it is doubtless that the fall of the Roman empire affected the entire world, not just the West itself. These effects may not have been immediate, but they certainly happened. Recall that if the Roman empire (as opposed to just its weakened Eastern half) had still existed in the 600s, there is a good chance that Islam would not have.

Regardless, the loss of the Roman Empire did not bring all technology development to a screeching halt. There were still other civilizations developing, even if much of Europe imploded. Yes, the Muslims had their own issues, but the fact remains that the "Dark Ages" only stopped technology development in one area of the world. You can bring all of the points you want about the Muslim infighting, or China's stagnation (they really have little to do with the discussion at hand), but the fact remains that technology continued to develop. These periods of technological regression occurred after Medieval Europe was already in the process of creating better farming technology, weapons, etc.

 dusara217 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One of my favorite bit of fluff about this is Tau capturing a warp drive and some of the workers who worked to maintain it. After interogating them to figure out how it works all the workers could tell them is the chants and memorize rituals they were taught and had no actually knowledge how it worked.

The knowledge is contained within the chants and rituals. What better way is there to preserve knowledge than to immortalize it in religious cants (especiallly when knowledge is being lost at a prodigious rate)? It's akin to a Kata in Chinese Kempo (Katas were used by Shaolin Monks to condense huge amounts of teachings into relatively short periods of time). In Chinese Kempo, a Kata (or form) is a collection of seemingly random moves intended to teach the student certain aspects of fighting. For instance, in the Kata known as "2 Kata", you are taught rotational torque, how to use a neck-lock to take somebody down, and how to use the Crane's Wings technique, among other things. When I first learned the form, I had no idea of the value of the knowledge it contained. After years and years of practicing it, I came to find more and more new things contained within it (it's almost like reading scriptures; there's always something new if you're actively studying the symbolism). As somebody who just looks at the form, and doesn't think about the lessons contained within it, it just seems like a pointless ritual. However, it contains some of the most valuable teachings in the Art, if you're willing to look. On the same hand, the Mechanicum's endless ritual contains the lessons of how the technology works. The instruction manuals are effectively preserved via religious chants and the like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psychopski wrote:
I see some similarities between our own world history, Ancient Rome, the Pyramids of Egypt versus 40K, lost knowledge and the Adeptus Mechanicus. Also the similarities between the fall of the Roman Empire leading us into the Dark ages... compared to the events that occurred in the "pre 40K" universe that lead humanity into "Old Night". A great power falls, many lines of communications are cut, much knowledge is lost, war and Chaos follows.

As far as our world history, there's no telling how much knowledge was lost when the Library at Alexandria, Egypt burned. We are still perplexed and wonder exactly how the Pyramids were constructed. Many 3rd world countries didn't have an effective system of running potable water or subterranean sewers until the 1960s, a system which the Romans had perfected almost 2000 years prior.

The Dark Ages is a complete fallacy. No knowledge was lost, many technologies marched onward without any hiccups, education continued to spread, and the Monks preserved any knowledge in danger of being lost by copying everything for future generations.

I am not sure about that - the world post Rome in Europe at least was a very different place - the populations were much smaller - especially in the towns and cities, the roads were not maintained to the same degree, most of the comforts of civilisations went - concrete for building, decent sewers, clean(ish) water supplies, interior heating, baths etc were lost or became symbols of decadence - with the reduction in basic hygiene - towns became even more dangerous. Large cities were not overly great under the Empire but the period after meant they became very unhealthy - which persisted for very many centuries in the West.

Medical science was restricted and although some things were preserved by the Church some were not. The rising nations of the Middle East also preserved quite a bit of knowledge - I would say more than the West - and in fact these are imported back through later trading links / and or warfare leading to the same..

The Church did not copy everything - there are still vast gaps in our knowledge of the writers of antiquity - many of their volumes are gone after the loss of many of the great libraries.

I love how you seem to think that "the world" contained nothing but Europe during the Middle Ages . The Chinese were, in fact, continuing to develop during this time period, as were the Muslims, and the Hindi, as well as many other cultures. Just because your locale was in a period of regression =/= the rest of the world was in a period of regression.

Edit: also, the "Dark Ages" only lasted a few centuries. After that it was considered "medieval", as the people began progressing in the areas of agricultural technology, culture, etc.

Yes I said post Rome in Europe - we are talking here about how the fall of a specific Empire impacted on the lives of those who lived within its boundry and also those afected by it.

I also think it highly debatable that technology signifcantly advanced during the Dark Ages and medievil period that can not be attributed to either the rediscovery of anicent methods or influence of other cultures from the middle and Far East. What specific areas of technologcal advancement are you thinking about? Certainly agriculture was less effective as can be seen by the comparitive populations. medical science regressed, roads and transport was much less effective, large scale sanitation was virtually non existant,

The equivalent here is that the old Empire of mankind crashed and fell and only some knowledge was preseved in some areas -not always by people who understood - so yes in the same was as the monks copied some texxts they could no longer read or understand the Mechanicum does the same as well stuff they do understand.

Did I argue that Europe maintained its same level of technology? I don't think so, but let me double check...

Just because your locale was in a period of regression =/= the rest of the world was in a period of regression.

Okay, maybe I misinterpreted your post. Perhaps you don't think that the rest of the world was capable of making significant advances in technology (that last link has lotsa goodness about China)? Or perhaps you believe that the roots of European Classical Literature are the only fonts of ancient knowledge? Of course, Europe wasn't without invention during the so-called "Dark Ages", either. But, alas, we all seem to be forgetting about little Africa's contributions.I do believe that I just proved you to be incorrect.
Now, this is not to say that technology was not lost, in Europe, at least, but the fact remains that the Dark Ages were only Dark because of the two or three centuries of anarchy that ensued the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

EDIT: fixed a few typos

 dusara217 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One of my favorite bit of fluff about this is Tau capturing a warp drive and some of the workers who worked to maintain it. After interogating them to figure out how it works all the workers could tell them is the chants and memorize rituals they were taught and had no actually knowledge how it worked.

The knowledge is contained within the chants and rituals. What better way is there to preserve knowledge than to immortalize it in religious cants (especiallly when knowledge is being lost at a prodigious rate)? It's akin to a Kata in Chinese Kempo (Katas were used by Shaolin Monks to condense huge amounts of teachings into relatively short periods of time). In Chinese Kempo, a Kata (or form) is a collection of seemingly random moves intended to teach the student certain aspects of fighting. For instance, in the Kata known as "2 Kata", you are taught rotational torque, how to use a neck-lock to take somebody down, and how to use the Crane's Wings technique, among other things. When I first learned the form, I had no idea of the value of the knowledge it contained. After years and years of practicing it, I came to find more and more new things contained within it (it's almost like reading scriptures; there's always something new if you're actively studying the symbolism). As somebody who just looks at the form, and doesn't think about the lessons contained within it, it just seems like a pointless ritual. However, it contains some of the most valuable teachings in the Art, if you're willing to look. On the same hand, the Mechanicum's endless ritual contains the lessons of how the technology works. The instruction manuals are effectively preserved via religious chants and the like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psychopski wrote:
I see some similarities between our own world history, Ancient Rome, the Pyramids of Egypt versus 40K, lost knowledge and the Adeptus Mechanicus. Also the similarities between the fall of the Roman Empire leading us into the Dark ages... compared to the events that occurred in the "pre 40K" universe that lead humanity into "Old Night". A great power falls, many lines of communications are cut, much knowledge is lost, war and Chaos follows.

As far as our world history, there's no telling how much knowledge was lost when the Library at Alexandria, Egypt burned. We are still perplexed and wonder exactly how the Pyramids were constructed. Many 3rd world countries didn't have an effective system of running potable water or subterranean sewers until the 1960s, a system which the Romans had perfected almost 2000 years prior.

The Dark Ages is a complete fallacy. No knowledge was lost, many technologies marched onward without any hiccups, education continued to spread, and the Monks preserved any knowledge in danger of being lost by copying everything for future generations.

I am not sure about that - the world post Rome in Europe at least was a very different place - the populations were much smaller - especially in the towns and cities, the roads were not maintained to the same degree, most of the comforts of civilisations went - concrete for building, decent sewers, clean(ish) water supplies, interior heating, baths etc were lost or became symbols of decadence - with the reduction in basic hygiene - towns became even more dangerous. Large cities were not overly great under the Empire but the period after meant they became very unhealthy - which persisted for very many centuries in the West.

Medical science was restricted and although some things were preserved by the Church some were not. The rising nations of the Middle East also preserved quite a bit of knowledge - I would say more than the West - and in fact these are imported back through later trading links / and or warfare leading to the same..

The Church did not copy everything - there are still vast gaps in our knowledge of the writers of antiquity - many of their volumes are gone after the loss of many of the great libraries.

I love how you seem to think that "the world" contained nothing but Europe during the Middle Ages . The Chinese were, in fact, continuing to develop during this time period, as were the Muslims, and the Hindi, as well as many other cultures. Just because your locale was in a period of regression =/= the rest of the world was in a period of regression.

Edit: also, the "Dark Ages" only lasted a few centuries. After that it was considered "medieval", as the people began progressing in the areas of agricultural technology, culture, etc.

Yes I said post Rome in Europe - we are talking here about how the fall of a specific Empire impacted on the lives of those who lived within its boundry and also those afected by it.

I also think it highly debatable that technology signifcantly advanced during the Dark Ages and medievil period that can not be attributed to either the rediscovery of anicent methods or influence of other cultures from the middle and Far East. What specific areas of technologcal advancement are you thinking about? Certainly agriculture was less effective as can be seen by the comparitive populations. medical science regressed, roads and transport was much less effective, large scale sanitation was virtually non existant,

The equivalent here is that the old Empire of mankind crashed and fell and only some knowledge was preseved in some areas -not always by people who understood - so yes in the same was as the monks copied some texxts they could no longer read or understand the Mechanicum does the same as well stuff they do understand.

Did I argue that Europe maintained its same level of technology? I don't think so, but let me double check...

Just because your locale was in a period of regression =/= the rest of the world was in a period of regression.

Okay, maybe I misinterpreted your post. Perhaps you don't think that the rest of the world was capable of making significant advances in technology (that last link has lotsa goodness about China)? Or perhaps you believe that the roots of European Classical Literature are the only fonts of ancient knowledge? Of course, Europe wasn't without invention during the so-called "Dark Ages", either. But, alas, we all seem to be forgetting about little Africa's contributions.I do believe that I just proved you to be incorrect.
Now, this is not to say that technology was not lost, in Europe, at least, but the fact remains that the Dark Ages were only Dark because of the two or three centuries of anarchy that ensued the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

EDIT: fixed a few typos

Nobody's saying that the rest of the world wasnt capable of, or never made any technological developments. The question was wether the Dark ages actually existed, or wether they were a product of past historians.
By the way, the source you cited for inventions of the middle ages contains few from the early medieval ages, or the time period were actually talking about (Historians consider the dark ages now adays to end around 1000 irc).

 Jollydevil wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One of my favorite bit of fluff about this is Tau capturing a warp drive and some of the workers who worked to maintain it. After interogating them to figure out how it works all the workers could tell them is the chants and memorize rituals they were taught and had no actually knowledge how it worked.

The knowledge is contained within the chants and rituals. What better way is there to preserve knowledge than to immortalize it in religious cants (especiallly when knowledge is being lost at a prodigious rate)? It's akin to a Kata in Chinese Kempo (Katas were used by Shaolin Monks to condense huge amounts of teachings into relatively short periods of time). In Chinese Kempo, a Kata (or form) is a collection of seemingly random moves intended to teach the student certain aspects of fighting. For instance, in the Kata known as "2 Kata", you are taught rotational torque, how to use a neck-lock to take somebody down, and how to use the Crane's Wings technique, among other things. When I first learned the form, I had no idea of the value of the knowledge it contained. After years and years of practicing it, I came to find more and more new things contained within it (it's almost like reading scriptures; there's always something new if you're actively studying the symbolism). As somebody who just looks at the form, and doesn't think about the lessons contained within it, it just seems like a pointless ritual. However, it contains some of the most valuable teachings in the Art, if you're willing to look. On the same hand, the Mechanicum's endless ritual contains the lessons of how the technology works. The instruction manuals are effectively preserved via religious chants and the like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psychopski wrote:
I see some similarities between our own world history, Ancient Rome, the Pyramids of Egypt versus 40K, lost knowledge and the Adeptus Mechanicus. Also the similarities between the fall of the Roman Empire leading us into the Dark ages... compared to the events that occurred in the "pre 40K" universe that lead humanity into "Old Night". A great power falls, many lines of communications are cut, much knowledge is lost, war and Chaos follows.

As far as our world history, there's no telling how much knowledge was lost when the Library at Alexandria, Egypt burned. We are still perplexed and wonder exactly how the Pyramids were constructed. Many 3rd world countries didn't have an effective system of running potable water or subterranean sewers until the 1960s, a system which the Romans had perfected almost 2000 years prior.

The Dark Ages is a complete fallacy. No knowledge was lost, many technologies marched onward without any hiccups, education continued to spread, and the Monks preserved any knowledge in danger of being lost by copying everything for future generations.

I am not sure about that - the world post Rome in Europe at least was a very different place - the populations were much smaller - especially in the towns and cities, the roads were not maintained to the same degree, most of the comforts of civilisations went - concrete for building, decent sewers, clean(ish) water supplies, interior heating, baths etc were lost or became symbols of decadence - with the reduction in basic hygiene - towns became even more dangerous. Large cities were not overly great under the Empire but the period after meant they became very unhealthy - which persisted for very many centuries in the West.

Medical science was restricted and although some things were preserved by the Church some were not. The rising nations of the Middle East also preserved quite a bit of knowledge - I would say more than the West - and in fact these are imported back through later trading links / and or warfare leading to the same..

The Church did not copy everything - there are still vast gaps in our knowledge of the writers of antiquity - many of their volumes are gone after the loss of many of the great libraries.

I love how you seem to think that "the world" contained nothing but Europe during the Middle Ages . The Chinese were, in fact, continuing to develop during this time period, as were the Muslims, and the Hindi, as well as many other cultures. Just because your locale was in a period of regression =/= the rest of the world was in a period of regression.

Edit: also, the "Dark Ages" only lasted a few centuries. After that it was considered "medieval", as the people began progressing in the areas of agricultural technology, culture, etc.

Yes I said post Rome in Europe - we are talking here about how the fall of a specific Empire impacted on the lives of those who lived within its boundry and also those afected by it.

I also think it highly debatable that technology signifcantly advanced during the Dark Ages and medievil period that can not be attributed to either the rediscovery of anicent methods or influence of other cultures from the middle and Far East. What specific areas of technologcal advancement are you thinking about? Certainly agriculture was less effective as can be seen by the comparitive populations. medical science regressed, roads and transport was much less effective, large scale sanitation was virtually non existant,

The equivalent here is that the old Empire of mankind crashed and fell and only some knowledge was preseved in some areas -not always by people who understood - so yes in the same was as the monks copied some texxts they could no longer read or understand the Mechanicum does the same as well stuff they do understand.

Did I argue that Europe maintained its same level of technology? I don't think so, but let me double check...

Just because your locale was in a period of regression =/= the rest of the world was in a period of regression.

Okay, maybe I misinterpreted your post. Perhaps you don't think that the rest of the world was capable of making significant advances in technology (that last link has lotsa goodness about China)? Or perhaps you believe that the roots of European Classical Literature are the only fonts of ancient knowledge? Of course, Europe wasn't without invention during the so-called "Dark Ages", either. But, alas, we all seem to be forgetting about little Africa's contributions.I do believe that I just proved you to be incorrect.
Now, this is not to say that technology was not lost, in Europe, at least, but the fact remains that the Dark Ages were only Dark because of the two or three centuries of anarchy that ensued the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

EDIT: fixed a few typos

Nobody's saying that the rest of the world wasnt capable of, or never made any technological developments. The question was wether the Dark ages actually existed, or wether they were a product of past historians.
By the way, the source you cited for inventions of the middle ages contains few from the early medieval ages, or the time period were actually talking about (Historians consider the dark ages now adays to end around 1000 irc).

The sources that I cited included advances from as long ago as Egyptian Mathematics textbooks to [literal] astronomical discoveries of the Medieval Era, and everything in between. My point was that the world never stopped producing new technologies. However, seeing as how you have clarified that you're position was not, in fact, that the world regressed and simply that the Dark Ages occurred, I apologize for misconstruing your post. My mistake.

We are already way of topic but Dusara217 lets go back to the specific statement that caused a number of us to question what you were saying.

The Dark Ages is a complete fallacy. No knowledge was lost, many technologies marched onward without any hiccups, education continued to spread, and the Monks preserved any knowledge in danger of being lost by copying everything for future generations.

As we have repeatedly said - the Dark Ages refers to a specific period of European history following the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the consequences of this, which as I have repeatedly said included loss of agricultural prowess, sanitation, building, and many many other areas. The Roman Empire itself was not particularly great at innovation but it was relatively stable for the majority of its people to live and work within.

Education continued to spread - really? The only real source of education for centuries was the Church and that was highly restricted - women for instance had very limited avenues of academic exploration. The Roman Empire was by no means a paradise for academics but education for the general population was more accessible - especially for women.

In particular the assertion that "no knowledge was lost because monks were copying it" is simply not true - we have vast amounts of ancient literature that we know of only be references or fragments. And this is the area that were we talking about - the loss of knowledge or even the loss of the ability to comprehend the knowledge that you are preserving.......which fits very well the Mechancium model?

China, Middle East and other parts of the world went their own way yes, technology changed and improved or was forgoton or regressed but the impact of the end of the Western Roman Empire in Europe should I think not be underestimated.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psychopski wrote:
I see some similarities between our own world history, Ancient Rome, the Pyramids of Egypt versus 40K, lost knowledge and the Adeptus Mechanicus. Also the similarities between the fall of the Roman Empire leading us into the Dark ages... compared to the events that occurred in the "pre 40K" universe that lead humanity into "Old Night". A great power falls, many lines of communications are cut, much knowledge is lost, war and Chaos follows.

As far as our world history, there's no telling how much knowledge was lost when the Library at Alexandria, Egypt burned. We are still perplexed and wonder exactly how the Pyramids were constructed. Many 3rd world countries didn't have an effective system of running potable water or subterranean sewers until the 1960s, a system which the Romans had perfected almost 2000 years prior.

The Dark Ages is a complete fallacy. No knowledge was lost, many technologies marched onward without any hiccups, education continued to spread, and the Monks preserved any knowledge in danger of being lost by copying everything for future generations.

This is true. Ther reason we see it as the dark ages is because the western world has a very Eurocentric view. The knowledge of roman technology was preserved during the Muslim golden age which happened during the same time as the dark ages. the problem is that by the time the Germanic and barbarian civilizations of Europe caught up to a point where they could understand the technology, religious wars prevented the exchange of information. It wasn't lost so much as rejected as heretical... seems familiar. look at the issue of the Interex... its basically the same story, just projected onto 40k.

Hardline Religion is the biggest enemy of advance and logic. Just look at Galileo. If the church would have been more hardline about it he might have been banned or burned. And in 40k the possibility for supression and censorship is far greater because of the technology that was invented before the religious controll set in. Therefore "inventors" or "discoverers" or "revolutionists" are isolated and few hear about them before the inquisition takes note of them and acts.

Also, if islamic kingdoms enjoyed great development during european dark ages... what happened after this phase to them? Why did they stop beeing at the forefront of technology? The answer is hardline religion...

 Keep wrote:
Hardline Religion is the biggest enemy of advance and logic. Just look at Galileo. If the church would have been more hardline about it he might have been banned or burned.

Actually the Church and State was quite supportive of his efforts. He was investigated by the Inquisition for his findings after he published his findings supporting heliocentricism as they went against established religious knowledge but they took no action against him. He then was able to debate his findings against the main problems that people had with the heliocentric theory, such as the lack of stellar parallax and the size of the stars. It was no until that he (perhaps unwittingly) insulted the pope in a book which he had been asked to write explaining both sides of the argument that he was placed under house arrest where he continued to receive visitors and write.

But don't let that get in the way of your apparent hatred for all things religious.

 Keep wrote:
Hardline Religion is the biggest enemy of advance and logic. Just look at Galileo. If the church would have been more hardline about it he might have been banned or burned. And in 40k the possibility for supression and censorship is far greater because of the technology that was invented before the religious controll set in. Therefore "inventors" or "discoverers" or "revolutionists" are isolated and few hear about them before the inquisition takes note of them and acts.

Also, if islamic kingdoms enjoyed great development during european dark ages... what happened after this phase to them? Why did they stop beeing at the forefront of technology? The answer is hardline religion...

Europe conquered most of the Middle East for a couple centuries and divided the people up into ethnic camps, staged a few wars in their territory, and then held a few proxy wars. Never mind the fact that most of the Middle East is actually on par with Europe and the US as far as technological advancement goes. After all, the Middle East is full of automobiles, advanced medicine, televisions, cellphones, CDs and DVDs, video game consoles and all the rest of the consumerist crap we like to think makes us "advanced". They're not all bombed-out hellholes like Afghanistan and Iraq.

Let's not forget Genghis Khan and his mongol hordes. The center of the enlightened islamic world was Baghdad where the Caliph ruled, until the mongols razed the city in 1258 and did such damage to the irrigation systems of the twin river region that it has never been repaired. It's seen as the end of the Golden Age of Islam.

The Dark Ages were literally Dark. Large amounts of particulates from the eruption of Krakatoa blocked sunlight resulting in colder weather, shorter growing seasons and major disruptions to the climate from 534 to 546 AD.

This, on the heels of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire just prior caused major die offs in the human population in Europe.

However, the weather also affected most of the northern hemisphere and there are records of climatic issues in China, India and the Americas. The Moche Civilization in Peru collapsed, China entered into civil war, The Aztecs had major declines at their major city of Teotihuacan, and the Gupta Empire in India collapsed.

This represented a major setback in human advancement as the major stabilizing empires across the world suffered major upheaval, starvation and war. It also set off waves of immigration across Europe and Asia that caused further war and destruction.

So while some advancements were made at the time, few governments existed to implement them on any wide scale, and of those all who remained were at war and in no position to do so.

It is a great mirror for the Mechanicum, because right now the majority of the Mechanicum's efforts are geared towards cranking out war materials for the Imperium, and preserving what they already have. While some individual advancements are made, most are never shared or implemented due to the focus on production and preservation above all. And lets face it, so what if one planet has awesome nano tech or grav tech. If the wider imperium doesn't then they will standardize on the lowest tech level.

That is why the AM use las weapons. They are simple and understood by everyone. Same with Vox, Chimera, etc. SM gear is advanced because you get training at Mars, but still only represents the general level of Martian technology.

Science is a pyramid, every discovery builds off the prior base of knowledge. With the Heresy and Old Night taking a sledgehammer to that foundation what is left is stacks of rubble that could collapse at any moment, taking the knowledge of Neutron Lasers or Land Crawlers with it when the forge world that makes cogs is taken out by Orks.

Yay for unsupported historical claims! The Dark Ages were backwards! Actually, historians seem to generally refer to the time period as the Early Medieval Period or Early Middle Ages in contrast to earlier views exalting Classical knowledge and eschewing actual development during the period. Even Wikipedia has a decent summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography) .
Also, yay for unsupported attacks on religion, ignoring the fact that for hundreds of years, it was the main source of education in Europe (the cathedral and monastic schools building a tradition of education that lead to universities and higher education) and that Protestant reliance on Biblical primacy was a huge driver of literacy in the United States.

It's fun to trot out Galileo and ignore the fact that the dispute was largely based on the Church's demand for proof to support a new theory and Galileo's violation of a promise not to teach heliocentrism without proof (which didn't come abut until after his death). Far from being a persecuted martyr, he was treated as something of a celebrity by the Church.

While certainly anti-intellectual fundamentalist religion is a thing, religion is not inherently antithetical to knowledge or progress. Such a false dichotomy is usually presented by fanatics (of both religious and anti-religious stripes), however.

What does that have to do with the topic? Well, those with knowledge have their own agendas while the people are largely ignorant and afraid. The Mechanicum is a vast organization and has both devout literalists and forward thinking radicals. All are constrained by limits of available knowledge, however, often preserved in religious ritual.

Personally i think the highest levels of the mechanicum know a lot more than they are letting on but it helps keep them in control if everything is mysterious and shrouded in ritual

 Peregrine wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Tau barely have a Warp presence, if any. They could not progress to Chaos even if they wanted to.

But why should this apply to their technology? If Chaos can corrupt and possess a lasgun then surely it should be able to do the same to a pulse rifle.

I think it depends on the creator. I know when a human creates a scalpel, the human unwittingly psychically imbues that scalpel with the potential to cause harm. If that scalpel is used to cause harm that psychic potential becomes stronger.

I'm sure there are Eldar weapons that have their own personalities, some even are intelligent in their own right. Can anyone confirm this? It would suggest the more psychic race the more heavily imbued their weapons are.

Perhaps Tau, lacking any psychic potential create weapons and they simply work mechanically, no more than that?

Admittedly, I did not read most of the posts in this thread; but I am going to reply to the original premise in a way that may have already been stated:

First: there are some advancements in the last 10,000 years both technologically and theologically(speaking in-universe for 40k). Power Armour has advanced, many weapon systems have advanced or been recovered(and understood enough for new manufacture), etc.

Second: The lack of communication between worlds, lack of education, and entire age of strife relegated all technology to a mystery that you could keep maintained, but not really advance. The fear being that to mess around with the technology, or open up the ancient devices, could break them or cause unintended consequences. So now you have "Scientists" steeped in superstitious beliefs that the devices need to be prayed to along with lubricating the working parts.

Third draws off of 2 in a manner: There were planets that advanced prior to the great crusade, some of which had neared(or maintained) the Golden era and/or some of the 40k tech. Take the returning superstition and veneration of the Emperor as a God and you have a homogenization of all tech across the imperium where in 10,000 years the knowledge stagnates and the superstition comes to the fore.

nareik wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Tau barely have a Warp presence, if any. They could not progress to Chaos even if they wanted to.

But why should this apply to their technology? If Chaos can corrupt and possess a lasgun then surely it should be able to do the same to a pulse rifle.

I think it depends on the creator. I know when a human creates a scalpel, the human unwittingly psychically imbues that scalpel with the potential to cause harm. If that scalpel is used to cause harm that psychic potential becomes stronger.

I'm sure there are Eldar weapons that have their own personalities, some even are intelligent in their own right. Can anyone confirm this? It would suggest the more psychic race the more heavily imbued their weapons are.

Perhaps Tau, lacking any psychic potential create weapons and they simply work mechanically, no more than that?

Also, every single piece of Human technology is derived from an STC and believed to have a Machine Spirit. Complicated machinery can have very complex or even near-sentient Machine Spirits (Land Raiders, Titans), but even simple things like lasguns are believed to have (simple) Machine Spirits. This might be the cause of why Chaos is able to corrupt or possess Human technology, but is never seen doing the same to tech of other races.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

nareik wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Tau barely have a Warp presence, if any. They could not progress to Chaos even if they wanted to.

But why should this apply to their technology? If Chaos can corrupt and possess a lasgun then surely it should be able to do the same to a pulse rifle.

I think it depends on the creator. I know when a human creates a scalpel, the human unwittingly psychically imbues that scalpel with the potential to cause harm. If that scalpel is used to cause harm that psychic potential becomes stronger.

I'm sure there are Eldar weapons that have their own personalities, some even are intelligent in their own right. Can anyone confirm this? It would suggest the more psychic race the more heavily imbued their weapons are.

Perhaps Tau, lacking any psychic potential create weapons and they simply work mechanically, no more than that?

Also, every single piece of Human technology is derived from an STC and believed to have a Machine Spirit. Complicated machinery can have very complex or even near-sentient Machine Spirits (Land Raiders, Titans), but even simple things like lasguns are believed to have (simple) Machine Spirits. This might be the cause of why Chaos is able to corrupt or possess Human technology, but is never seen doing the same to tech of other races.

Chaos doesn't much bother with the other races in general, because humanity/The Emperor is the only species in the galaxy that has any potential to threaten the Ruinous Powers that is also corruptible.

Durandal wrote:The Dark Ages were literally Dark. Large amounts of particulates from the eruption of Krakatoa blocked sunlight resulting in colder weather, shorter growing seasons and major disruptions to the climate from 534 to 546 AD.

This, on the heels of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire just prior caused major die offs in the human population in Europe.

However, the weather also affected most of the northern hemisphere and there are records of climatic issues in China, India and the Americas. The Moche Civilization in Peru collapsed, China entered into civil war, The Aztecs had major declines at their major city of Teotihuacan, and the Gupta Empire in India collapsed.

This represented a major setback in human advancement as the major stabilizing empires across the world suffered major upheaval, starvation and war. It also set off waves of immigration across Europe and Asia that caused further war and destruction.

So while some advancements were made at the time, few governments existed to implement them on any wide scale, and of those all who remained were at war and in no position to do so.

It is a great mirror for the Mechanicum, because right now the majority of the Mechanicum's efforts are geared towards cranking out war materials for the Imperium, and preserving what they already have. While some individual advancements are made, most are never shared or implemented due to the focus on production and preservation above all. And lets face it, so what if one planet has awesome nano tech or grav tech. If the wider imperium doesn't then they will standardize on the lowest tech level.

That is why the AM use las weapons. They are simple and understood by everyone. Same with Vox, Chimera, etc. SM gear is advanced because you get training at Mars, but still only represents the general level of Martian technology.

Science is a pyramid, every discovery builds off the prior base of knowledge. With the Heresy and Old Night taking a sledgehammer to that foundation what is left is stacks of rubble that could collapse at any moment, taking the knowledge of Neutron Lasers or Land Crawlers with it when the forge world that makes cogs is taken out by Orks.

Why was I never taught this? Thanks for nothing, American public schools!