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And as for genocide... the countless Force Sensitive wars are what? Anyway, the problem remains - what is and isn't canon for SW?

Not genocide since they aren't targeting a specific species or sub-species.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't know the setting well but I've been told that the Culture can do it as well.

The Culture has the tech, but not the heart or sheer manpower to match up to the Imperium.

Anyone claiming the Culture could not win a war is missing on the point of the Culture. They are the antagonist that simply cannot be beaten, under any circumstances. And to say that they do not have the heart to engage the Imperium is just plain wrong : they've annihilated all atoms of contested planets simply to put across their point.

Seems to me that in a SW vs Imperium war, the SW forces simply have to remain spaceborne and will never have a problem. Imperium ships takes 30 minutes to load a single broadside and a few hours to do a full 180.

It also doesn't take a genius to go around the lack of starcharts. Capturing a single enemy vessel should already help a lot toward this.

 Psienesis wrote:

And as for genocide... the countless Force Sensitive wars are what? Anyway, the problem remains - what is and isn't canon for SW?

Not genocide since they aren't targeting a specific species or sub-species.

Yes yes, they're not genocide, but you got what I meant.

If the GE is willing to blow up a planet just to make a point...

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't know the setting well but I've been told that the Culture can do it as well.

The Culture has the tech, but not the heart or sheer manpower to match up to the Imperium.

It doesn't need manpower. A single Culture warship could take on the combined forces of the entire 40k galaxy simultaneously and win in less time than it took me to write this sentence. And it can turn entire planetary masses into combat drones if, for some reason, it wishes to engage in ground combat.

Various Minds might have to have a bit of heart to heart about the appropriate way to deal with the Imperium and the social / political aftermath but militarily there would be no contest............

Orks would be an interesting one for them to consider - they are a bit like the Afront..............

The Necrons having time travel might cause issues with the Culture - who are not infallible - but not far off.

Anyone claiming the Culture could not win a war is missing on the point of the Culture. They are the antagonist that simply cannot be beaten, under any circumstances.

Not quite true - they nearly lost their last big war and there are more advanced civilisations than them in their own galaxy - many of which have sublimed but not all.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
what is and isn't canon for SW?

Officially, as in Lucasfilms statement, only the six films and the two Clone Wars animated series are canon. Nothing else is.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
what is and isn't canon for SW?

Officially, as in Lucasfilms statement, only the nine films and the two Clone Wars animated series are canon. Nothing else is.

Sorry, fixed that

You also forgot Star Wars: Rebels.

The EU Old Republic lore is best lore imo.

How long could a Space Marine company survive an infinite stream of Stormtroopers then?

Who knows? We don't know the values.

Blaster weapons seem somewhat survivable by normal humans, comparable to the small arms of today or the lasguns of 40k, so they shouldn't do all that much against PA.

 Matthew wrote:
How long could a Space Marine company survive an infinite stream of Stormtroopers then?

They could.

All the Storm troopers would miss

 Ashiraya wrote:
Who knows? We don't know the values.

Blaster weapons seem somewhat survivable by normal humans, comparable to the small arms of today or the lasguns of 40k, so they shouldn't do all that much against PA.

Its weird because you see holes being blasted in wall and metal and whatnot, but then you have the scene where Leia gets shot in the arm and she's fine-ish.

 Matthew wrote:
How long could a Space Marine company survive an infinite stream of Stormtroopers then?

Between the poor aim of Stormtroopers, the very low velocity of blaster bolts, Astartes' superhuman reflexes, the Astartes' Power Armor, and blaster bolts only being strong enough to mildly burn the arm of an Alderaanian princess, I'd say they would hold out until the pile of stormtrooper corpses becomes high enough to block the passage of anything else. At which point the Astartes would go into sus-an to fend off starvation until such time as reinforcements could arrive.

Think about it, we've seen people get shot with the Blasters and survive (to the arm/leg, Leia even survives a hit from an AT-ST!). Meanwhile, if you were hit in the arm with a Bolter, being alive wouldn't really be a thing.

And yet stormtroopers as well as rebels die to their own blasters shots all the time. But of course, lets ignore that, because god forbids the Muhreens gets displayed in a bad light, right?

 Bobthehero wrote:
And yet stormtroopers as well as rebels die to their own blasters shots all the time. But of course, lets ignore that, because god forbids the Muhreens gets displayed in a bad light, right?

They've have the potential to be lethal, they just don't have anything like the destructive power of the bolter. Even the lasgun tends to cause minor flesh explosions as the water evaporates and expands. Blasters, in contrast, seem to be no more destructive than modern day small arms fire. Also, ceramic compounds (like ceramite) are very good at dissipating heat.

It's not so much Marine famboying as the simple disparity of the two forces. One side has genetic enhancements that are the brainchild of a near godlike being, armed and armored with the best available, and the product of over a decade of training. The other is mass-produced, with less powerful weapons and deals in intimidation much more often than actual warfare.

You ignore the part about blasters blasting rather large holes (far bigger than a 5.56mm round could do, trust me).

Its very easily on par with lasgun, even more so.

As for Ceramite and heat, the best weapons to beat PA with are heat based, at least on the IOM side, plasma guns, hellguns, hotshot volley rifles. All heat based weapon, all punch through PA/Ceramite.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't know the setting well but I've been told that the Culture can do it as well.

The Culture has the tech, but not the heart or sheer manpower to match up to the Imperium.

It doesn't need manpower. A single Culture warship could take on the combined forces of the entire 40k galaxy simultaneously and win in less time than it took me to write this sentence. And it can turn entire planetary masses into combat drones if, for some reason, it wishes to engage in ground combat.

I've only read one Culture book, but this does seem to be true. In the Culture, they engage in battle at such a ridiculous long range that it wouldn't even be entertaining to watch them fight one of the other Universes. But really, the limitations are what make fiction interesting. The Q Continuum from Star Trek would annihilate any other fictional world for example, but their power is so limitless they are only interesting as side characters that create challenges.

MeanAss_Demasoni wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't know the setting well but I've been told that the Culture can do it as well.

The Culture has the tech, but not the heart or sheer manpower to match up to the Imperium.

It doesn't need manpower. A single Culture warship could take on the combined forces of the entire 40k galaxy simultaneously and win in less time than it took me to write this sentence. And it can turn entire planetary masses into combat drones if, for some reason, it wishes to engage in ground combat.

I've only read one Culture book, but this does seem to be true. In the Culture, they engage in battle at such a ridiculous long range that it wouldn't even be entertaining to watch them fight one of the other Universes. But really, the limitations are what make fiction interesting. The Q Continuum from Star Trek would annihilate any other fictional world for example, but their power is so limitless they are only interesting as side characters that create challenges.

Well, that's the issue with comparing fiction, some of them are pretty convoluted in areas - like the Culture (which I'm not familiar with) or the Q.. At least Warhammer is pretty up front about it and consistent.

 kveldulf wrote:

MeanAss_Demasoni wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't know the setting well but I've been told that the Culture can do it as well.

The Culture has the tech, but not the heart or sheer manpower to match up to the Imperium.

It doesn't need manpower. A single Culture warship could take on the combined forces of the entire 40k galaxy simultaneously and win in less time than it took me to write this sentence. And it can turn entire planetary masses into combat drones if, for some reason, it wishes to engage in ground combat.

I've only read one Culture book, but this does seem to be true. In the Culture, they engage in battle at such a ridiculous long range that it wouldn't even be entertaining to watch them fight one of the other Universes. But really, the limitations are what make fiction interesting. The Q Continuum from Star Trek would annihilate any other fictional world for example, but their power is so limitless they are only interesting as side characters that create challenges.

Well, that's the issue with comparing fiction, some of them are pretty convoluted in areas - like the Culture (which I'm not familiar with) or the Q.. At least Warhammer is pretty up front about it and consistent.

Consistent? Where a single las gun can have no problem going through a sheet of metal, yet cannot puncture a piece of paper (I am exaggerating a bit). Where land raiders turn into razorbacks and back? Eldar worship Slaanesh, steal tanks from Imperial forces, and cannot grasp the human language. The only consistency in 40K is that there is no consistency.

 Bobthehero wrote:
You ignore the part about blasters blasting rather large holes (far bigger than a 5.56mm round could do, trust me).

Its very easily on par with lasgun, even more so.

As for Ceramite and heat, the best weapons to beat PA with are heat based, at least on the IOM side, plasma guns, hellguns, hotshot volley rifles. All heat based weapon, all punch through PA/Ceramite.

The plasma bolts of a SW blaster, however, are not on par with the plasma weapons of 40k. They aren't even on par with the plasma rifles of the Tau. They're also wildly inaccurate.

I dunno, Ceramite is pretty good against heat. If FW is to be believed, having a vehicle be built with ceramite makes it incredibly resistant to melta weapons.

But not agaisn't melta bombs and Hades Drills melta cutters.

Furthermore, more Imperial handheld weapons that can punch though power armor like its not there are heat based.

You'll never need to consider handheld weapons, honest. The SW guys have insanely much faster FTL even without prepared maps, and their ships aren't exactly pushovers. They can concentrate forces on a scale the IoM can never dream of, and even a single ISD (or comparable capital ship) is capable of glassing a planet in a matter of hours. A Space Marine Chapter Fleet is gone before the marines know they're being shot at.

There's no canonical evidence that an ISD can glass a planet. The SW hypen lasers are not impressive in any way.

Spetulhu wrote:
You'll never need to consider handheld weapons, honest. The SW guys have insanely much faster FTL even without prepared maps, and their ships aren't exactly pushovers. They can concentrate forces on a scale the IoM can never dream of, and even a single ISD (or comparable capital ship) is capable of glassing a planet in a matter of hours. A Space Marine Chapter Fleet is gone before the marines know they're being shot at.

In a void conflict, the Empire undoubtedly holds the advantage by way of mobility, I wouldn't be so quick to always give the upper hand to ISDs if they're unlucky enough to jump into a more even conflict. I'm not an expert by any means, but it seems like SW vessels are much more reliant on energy fields than physical armor, while the Imperium makes judicious use of both. This ultimately lot means that ISDs are better at offense due to the wedged hull allowing all guns to be brought to bear, while IoM vessels are better at taking hits. However, it doesn't look like the Galactic Empire makes any real use of boarding torpedoes, teleportora, or similar tech.

It's because Lucas and GW are both horrible futurists.

I need a star wars defender to answer these for me real quick:
Size of SW ships in rough estimate KM, since we know these numbers for 40k, we can compare ship size, additionally, armament as well for the SW ships.
On the ground, in all honesty, the battle always goes to the Imperium, more numbers, better elites, seemingly much MUCH longer ranged weapons, etc. From what I can see, general conscientious is IoM wins land battles, SW wins space battles, but I'm not sure on that one. Yes, you have speed, but that only accounts for so much in these "close system" battles that the OP hinted at. Before we even consider who wins in space, actual numbers would be nice from SW since we have them for IoM.

I still don't think the IoM could actually beat anyone due to its structure and stupidity.

 Brennonjw wrote:
I need a star wars defender to answer these for me real quick:
Size of SW ships in rough estimate KM, since we know these numbers for 40k, we can compare ship size, additionally, armament as well for the SW ships.
On the ground, in all honesty, the battle always goes to the Imperium, more numbers, better elites, seemingly much MUCH longer ranged weapons, etc. From what I can see, general conscientious is IoM wins land battles, SW wins space battles, but I'm not sure on that one. Yes, you have speed, but that only accounts for so much in these "close system" battles that the OP hinted at. Before we even consider who wins in space, actual numbers would be nice from SW since we have them for IoM.

With regards to armament, I think the best we can do is assume ships of equal size have about the same total armament, but not necessarily the same broadside weight etc.. The reason for this is that the "canonical" energy values are insanely high, even by 40k standards. The number of extra zeros at the end of those numbers means SW weapons would turn the entire "battlefield" incandescent from excess radiation alone.

 Brennonjw wrote:
I need a star wars defender to answer these for me real quick:
Size of SW ships in rough estimate KM, since we know these numbers for 40k, we can compare ship size, additionally, armament as well for the SW ships.
On the ground, in all honesty, the battle always goes to the Imperium, more numbers, better elites, seemingly much MUCH longer ranged weapons, etc. From what I can see, general conscientious is IoM wins land battles, SW wins space battles, but I'm not sure on that one. Yes, you have speed, but that only accounts for so much in these "close system" battles that the OP hinted at. Before we even consider who wins in space, actual numbers would be nice from SW since we have them for IoM.

SIze: Obviously varies on the class, with the smallest (TIE Fighters being roughly 9 m long) and the largest (discounting the Death Stars) being up to 19,000 m.
Armaments, again depends on the ship. However, from the Tech Guide (specifically Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections), The Acclamator Troop Transport:

Light guns: 300 million GW (6 megatons per shot, 24 guns, assume 1 shot every 2 seconds for time-averaged power output rather than peak output)
Heavy guns: 2.4 million megatons (200 gigatons per shot from each turret, 12 turrets)
Sublight acceleration: 3500G
Operational range: 250,000 light-years (before refueling)
Shield heat dissipation: 70 trillion GW peak
Reactor power: 200 trillion GW max
Max hyperspace speed: not stated (however, the ability to travel "halfway across the galaxy" in a matter of hours as demonstrated in ANH, TPM, and AOTC requires speeds in the range of 10 million to 100 million times c).

Of course an Acclamator is not a particularly powerful warship by Imperial standards (an Imperial Star Destroyer is roughly 10 times larger (by volume) than an Acclamator and presumably 10 times more powerful, even if we disregard the fact that an Acclamator is just a transport).

 Happyjew wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I need a star wars defender to answer these for me real quick:
Size of SW ships in rough estimate KM, since we know these numbers for 40k, we can compare ship size, additionally, armament as well for the SW ships.
On the ground, in all honesty, the battle always goes to the Imperium, more numbers, better elites, seemingly much MUCH longer ranged weapons, etc. From what I can see, general conscientious is IoM wins land battles, SW wins space battles, but I'm not sure on that one. Yes, you have speed, but that only accounts for so much in these "close system" battles that the OP hinted at. Before we even consider who wins in space, actual numbers would be nice from SW since we have them for IoM.

SIze: Obviously varies on the class, with the smallest (TIE Fighters being roughly 9 m long) and the largest (discounting the Death Stars) being up to 19,000 m.
Armaments, again depends on the ship. However, from the Tech Guide (specifically Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections), The Acclamator Troop Transport:

Light guns: 300 million GW (6 megatons per shot, 24 guns, assume 1 shot every 2 seconds for time-averaged power output rather than peak output)
Heavy guns: 2.4 million megatons (200 gigatons per shot from each turret, 12 turrets)
Sublight acceleration: 3500G
Operational range: 250,000 light-years (before refueling)
Shield heat dissipation: 70 trillion GW peak
Reactor power: 200 trillion GW max
Max hyperspace speed: not stated (however, the ability to travel "halfway across the galaxy" in a matter of hours as demonstrated in ANH, TPM, and AOTC requires speeds in the range of 10 million to 100 million times c).

Of course an Acclamator is not a particularly powerful warship by Imperial standards (an Imperial Star Destroyer is roughly 10 times larger (by volume) than an Acclamator and presumably 10 times more powerful, even if we disregard the fact that an Acclamator is just a transport).

Are you sure on the length and sizes? from what I've dug up, the Eclipse is one of the largest at just under 18 km, or am i missing something?