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Grey Templar wrote: Exactly. We might not know the properties of fancy space armor, but we do know the properties of human flesh, rocks, and trees. Blaster round don't do all that much to those, not to where we can believe the canon power outputs.
You mean from the examples of movies? Blaster rounds do a lot when they aren't hitting characters. They blow trees apart, they blow chucks out of walls, they blow chunks out of droids, they blow open gun emplacements, they blow chunks out of vehicles or initiate catastrophic destruction. They only thing they don't blow chunks out of is people, in order to maintain a PG rating. A shot that blows a fist-size chunk out of a solid wall would certainly make a mess of a rebel trooper. A vehicle mounted blaster that can blow apart a gun turret or knock down a snowspeeder with one shot would almost certainly blow a person, ewok, etc apart, but that wouldn't be PG. The canon isn't limited to PG visual effects.
What would bolter rounds do in the 40K movie, video games, etc if they had to have a PG effect? A whole lot of "nothing". Whoever got shot would just fall down with a little black mark on their skin or armor, and we would all bitch about the effects not being "canon".
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Martel732 wrote: Go watch saving Private Ryan. Then watch any Star Wars film. Then tell me who was better small arms: WWII armies or the stupid-ass SW fictional people. Then realize 2015 weapons are much more lethal than WWII weapons. Lucas is an idiot. And he was an idiot when we wrote Star Wars. He's a know-nothing that didn't understand how weapons really work.
Star Wars movies are a children-acceptable PG. Saving Private Ryan wasn't.
Grey Templar wrote: On a glancing blow. Blasters, due to being energy weapons, aren't going to deflect off of concrete. Their blast marks should be large enough to walk through.
Depends on how much energy is liberated when the bit of plasma hits the target.
True, heavy ship-mounted blasters can superheat and vaporize a 30 meter asteroid. But, the amount of gas which can be converted into plasma and accelerated to the target would be far higher for a capital ship versus a fighter versus a crew-served gun versus a personal blaster. So, the "standard" E-11 blaster can only vaporize a first-size chuck of wall.
It would work the same way with a glancing hit as well; the plasma isn't all going directly into the target; some of it will (and superheat a small portion of the target), some of it will continue on the path it was accelerated toward. Same with a bullet that hits concrete directly (most energy breaks apart the concrete, some breaks apart the bullet, some converted into heat and sound, etc) versus a glance. But also, keep in mind that bullet isn't vaporizing the concrete, just breaking it up. The star wars blaster (let's call them plasma guns, since they are pretty much described that way) bolts are very efficient at converting their energy into heat upon impact with a solid object.
Now, it takes an incredible amount of energy to superheat a chuck of rock so fast it turns into dust and vapor, far more than can be duplicated by a modern firearm. 7.5 Megajoules for 1 kg of rock/concrete/iron (a fist-size chuck of wall). Which, is about half the energy of a tank round.
So, back to the unimpressive E-11 blaster rifles which will be facing our stalwart Astartes. Two shots from the stormtrooper plasma rifle are the energy equivalent of being shot point blank range by an M1A1 tank. There may be some difference if that E-11 plasma bolt was converting it's energy into something else upon impact.
But, again...only unimpressive when blasters hit Greedo, stormtroopers, rebels, Ewoks, etc. Which would be superheated from room temperature to slightly under 100,000 degrees since water is so efficient at storing heat. Of course there's not enough pressure to contain the vaporizing rebel and allow the poor chap to continue to heat, so I'd assume a non-PG effect would be the area around the impact "pops" as flesh/blood/bone is near-instantly converted to steam, and most of the plasma bolt returns to gas and dissipates as there's not enough pressure to contain the target vapor and allow it to continue to rise in temperature until it converts to plasma.
Anyways, I agree...Star Wars movie blasters don't do jack when they hit rebels. But, they do have effects when they hit "stuff", that effect can be measured in joules, and those joules can be used to say what would happen if Star Wars wasn't PG and it can be compared to modern kinetic energy weapons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/06 20:06:59
Question, where are people getting the energy output for blasters?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
I wouldn't pay much attention to the actual figure either -we're talking about a universe in which a capital ship's shields can soak up turbolaser bombardment, yet can be pierced by the guns of a single seat fighter..take your pick. Also where teddy bears with spears can beat up crack troops in full armour with laser weapons. It's for inconsistencies like this that sci-fi should be enjoyed for what it is, and not keep us awake at night worrying about whether our chapter master would get beat up by Darth Vader.
thegreatchimp wrote: I wouldn't pay much attention to the actual figure either -we're talking about a universe in which a capital ship's shields can soak up turbolaser bombardment, yet can be pierced by the guns of a single seat fighter..take your pick. Also where teddy bears with spears can beat up crack troops in full armour with laser weapons. It's for inconsistencies like this that sci-fi should be enjoyed for what it is, and not keep us awake at night worrying about whether our chapter master would get beat up by Darth Vader.
Examples for small one-man fighters making it through shields and not turbolasers (which, contrary to popular belief are not lasers), despite the fact that SW shields practically hug the the ship?
Hundreds of teddy bears with spears and many died to bring about that victory.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/07 02:30:37
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
Examples for small one-man fighters making it through shields and not turbolasers (which, contrary to popular belief are not lasers), despite the fact that SW shields practically hug the the ship?
Hundreds of teddy bears with spears and many died to bring about that victory.
ROTJ: 2 fighters blow up an Imperial Star Destroyer's shields 2 fighters then knock out the Star Dreadnoughts shield generators, with most of the rebel capital ships bombarding it seemingly without making a scratch.
X-Wing Iron Fist, 2 wings of B-wing's take out Star Dreadnought Razor's Kiss' shield generators
And many more instances throughout the books that I can't recall off the top of my head...
re: turbolasers. Yes, I remember reading that -Star Wars lasers are actually plasma if I recall correctly?
Examples for small one-man fighters making it through shields and not turbolasers (which, contrary to popular belief are not lasers), despite the fact that SW shields practically hug the the ship?
Hundreds of teddy bears with spears and many died to bring about that victory.
ROTJ: 2 fighters blow up an Imperial Star Destroyer's shields 2 fighters then knock out the Star Dreadnoughts shield generators, with most of the rebel capital ships bombarding it seemingly without making a scratch.
X-Wing Iron Fist, 2 wings of B-wing's take out Star Dreadnought Razor's Kiss' shield generators
And many more instances throughout the books that I can't recall off the top of my head...
re: turbolasers. Yes, I remember reading that -Star Wars lasers are actually plasma if I recall correctly?
The bolts are "Tibanna Gas" that is charged until it ionizes. So functionally plasma, yes.
When the only tool you have is a Skyhammer, every army begins to resemble a nail.
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
Happyjew wrote: Hundreds of teddy bears with spears and many died to bring about that victory.
Nope, just one. At least according to the original film. Lucas discussed it in a later interview and admitted that the ewoks should have been massacred, but in order to keep the 'happy goodguy vibe' only one actually died.
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
Grey Templar wrote: Exactly. We might not know the properties of fancy space armor, but we do know the properties of human flesh, rocks, and trees. Blaster round don't do all that much to those, not to where we can believe the canon power outputs.
You mean from the examples of movies? Blaster rounds do a lot when they aren't hitting characters. They blow trees apart, they blow chucks out of walls, they blow chunks out of droids, they blow open gun emplacements, they blow chunks out of vehicles or initiate catastrophic destruction. They only thing they don't blow chunks out of is people, in order to maintain a PG rating. A shot that blows a fist-size chunk out of a solid wall would certainly make a mess of a rebel trooper. A vehicle mounted blaster that can blow apart a gun turret or knock down a snowspeeder with one shot would almost certainly blow a person, ewok, etc apart, but that wouldn't be PG. The canon isn't limited to PG visual effects.
What would bolter rounds do in the 40K movie, video games, etc if they had to have a PG effect? A whole lot of "nothing". Whoever got shot would just fall down with a little black mark on their skin or armor, and we would all bitch about the effects not being "canon".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Go watch saving Private Ryan. Then watch any Star Wars film. Then tell me who was better small arms: WWII armies or the stupid-ass SW fictional people. Then realize 2015 weapons are much more lethal than WWII weapons. Lucas is an idiot. And he was an idiot when we wrote Star Wars. He's a know-nothing that didn't understand how weapons really work.
Star Wars movies are a children-acceptable PG. Saving Private Ryan wasn't.
I don't care about PG.
Neither do I, but I understand that's why a movie blaster rifle can vaporize rock but barely singe a human when your goal is to sell millions of dollars worth of tickets, toys and licensing rather than being accurate about thermodynamics
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Happyjew wrote: Question, where are people getting the energy output for blasters?
An educated estimate as to the composition of rocks and asteroids which are vaporized by ship or personal blasters, and the amount of time the "blast" impacts the rock. There is a formula for how much power is required to vaporize "average" rock, iron, water, etc. That power (in watts) divided by time of exposure gives energy in joules. Given different specific heats (of rock versus water) you can calculate how many kilograms of human, iron, etc can be vaporized by a shot that can vaporize x kilograms of rock. There are a couple of sites that estimate the size of asteroids vaporized by the star destroyers searching the Hoth asteroid belt in Empire Strikes Back. I used a guestimate of the chucks of wall vaporized by stormtrooper rifles in a couple of the movies.
There's some estimation involved, of course, but it gives some useful figures.
Joules also converts to foot-pounds and other measures of energy, so you can compare the energy of a plasma gun capable of vaporizing x amount of iron to modern kinetic energy projectiles.
The useful ideal taken away is that it takes a lot of energy to vaporize things with low specific heats.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/07 19:34:31
Examples for small one-man fighters making it through shields and not turbolasers (which, contrary to popular belief are not lasers), despite the fact that SW shields practically hug the the ship?
Hundreds of teddy bears with spears and many died to bring about that victory.
ROTJ: 2 fighters blow up an Imperial Star Destroyer's shields 2 fighters then knock out the Star Dreadnoughts shield generators, with most of the rebel capital ships bombarding it seemingly without making a scratch.
X-Wing Iron Fist, 2 wings of B-wing's take out Star Dreadnought Razor's Kiss' shield generators
And many more instances throughout the books that I can't recall off the top of my head...
re: turbolasers. Yes, I remember reading that -Star Wars lasers are actually plasma if I recall correctly?
X-Wing Iron Fist is no longer canon.
RotJ: As you said the Imperial ships were under heavy bombardment before the shields failed. Besides, seeing as how shields can be brought back online, it would make sense to blow the generators (though technically those were sensor globes that got destroyed).
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
RotJ: As you said the Imperial ships were under heavy bombardment before the shields failed.
Yeah I think that was the official line on it in the books. But the comparetive damage output of a dozen capital ship's weapons and a pair of starfighters lasers and torpedoes... doesn't really hold under examination. And then an out of control starfighter takes out half the bridge tower, which is supposedly heavily enough armoured that it'd take sustained turbolaser bombardment to punch through.
Yeah, I remember when they changed the shield gens to sensor domes. Sensible retcon. They kept them as shield gens in games though.
RotJ: As you said the Imperial ships were under heavy bombardment before the shields failed.
Yeah I think that was the official line on it in the books. But the comparetive damage output of a dozen capital ship's weapons and a pair of starfighters lasers and torpedoes... doesn't really hold under examination. And then an out of control starfighter takes out half the bridge tower, which is supposedly heavily enough armoured that it'd take sustained turbolaser bombardment to punch through.
Yeah, I remember when they changed the shield gens to sensor domes. Sensible retcon. They kept them as shield gens in games though.
Actually you'll notice that the out of control A-wing crashes through the window of the Command Bridge.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
Actually you'll notice that the out of control A-wing crashes through the window of the Command Bridge.
Aren't those windows supposed to be as strong as the hull? Transpareant alloys or suchlike? It is of course possible I'm confusing that with another universe...
Peregrine wrote: Imperium wins on the ground, the Empire wins in space. Star Wars ships are roughly comparable in firepower and durability, but have an obscene advantage in strategic mobility. A Star Wars ship can cross the entire galaxy in a matter of hours, with no concerns about being off-target or delayed for a few thousand years. The war would be over before the Imperium is even able to realize it has started, as key planets are destroyed by orbital bombardment and any attempt to deploy the Imperium's own ships is met with overwhelming force.
No they don't. The Imperium's ships have gigaton and teraton level firepower. The Empire's turbolasers are only comparable to nukes in the height of the Cold War or slightly above (we've seen fights in-atmosphere between the CIS and Republic, there are no nuclear fireballs despite there being oxygen to supply such things outside of space), the only thing special about Star Wars ships are the super weapons like the Death Star. Outside of that pound-for-pound they're laughably outgunned.
Remember people, the EU is retconned and shoved off to a non canon alternate universe. It's dead Jim.
carldooley wrote: Styormtroopers are roughly IG quality\equivalent on a per body basis. but the Imperium has many, MANY more. The SM would ignore the conflict on the ground - leaving that to the Guard, and take the Empire's ships away via boarding actions.
Stormtroopers are more equivalent to Stormtroopers - well, Scions - actually.
Thing is, Stormtroopers know what will happen if their blaster bolts actually go near anyone wielding a lightsaber, so they miss on purpose.
No they aren't. Stormtrooper Plastoid armor is comparable to flak in terms of protection- it prevents them from dying from fragmenation such as grenades or general explosives, but completely folds with kinetic based attacks as seen in the Clone Wars or on Endor. Scion Armor meanwhile is capable of even tanking glancing shots from bolters, which is extremely impressive given that getting hit by a bolter is similar to being struck by an APHE 20mm or 30mm cannon and not getting organs turned into jello.
Stormtrooper Blasters meanwhile are only comparable to a standard lasgun, and not hotshot/hellguns.
Iron_Captain wrote: Clone/Storm Troopers can't even hit a target at 10 meters... The only reason they won the Clone Wars is because the battle droids were even worse at fighting No wonder the Empire was defeated by a bunch of rebels led by a farmer with a lightsaber.
Hey now, in the American Revolution the British Empire was beaten by a bunch of rebels led by a farmer with false teeth.
Don't underestimate a properly-equipped farmer.
I understand this is sarcasm, but the British Empire lost because a proxy war against the French Empire just after a massive true first world war (the seven year's war) across the Atlantic simply was not feasible with the single purpose of keeping the colonies as a captive market for trade.
Psienesis wrote: Nah, in False Emperor, the Emperor's Guard are carved through like butter. They're good against mooks, even really good mooks, but they've nothing against a Space Marine.
You mean the Flashpoint in SW:TOR? Because if so mobs in a dungeon don't really count (I mean c'mon, Malgus and Revan being brought down by 5 people? Silliness).
In the lore, the Emperor's Guard are badasses, even Dark Council members are scared of them and they handily beat Dark Council members a few times with little effort.
Oh, and if we can use the EU (since 40K lore vs the sliver of SW lore in the films alone is unfair), Emperor Vitiate alone would destroy planets without an army, and not forgetting the Planet sized force storm Palpatine can conjure. Or the absolute martial prowess of Tulak Hord, or Exar Kun, or Mace Windu, who would put 99% of the 40K universe to shame. And as far as psykers go, Force users aren't prone to getting their minds destroyed by the warp for using their powers.
Although, SW characters V their 40K analogues would be far more interesting
Rogal Dorn V Obi Wan Kenobi, the two most defensive combatants in either canon slogging it out
Angron V Darth Malgus, RAEG v Rage
I could keep going forever
Primarchs are stupidly more powerful than Jedi, to the point that it would be debatable if lightsabers would even pose a serious threat. Primarch flesh for exmaple is strong enough to suffer minor bruises from blows that shatter power armor or tank armor, not to mention the Primarchs themselves move faster than most Jedi.
Jedi Knights would be given a tough fight by normal Space Marines, and normal Librarians would probably kill most Masters and Sith when push comes to shove. Primarchs would kill them in the opening blow after the supersonic boom of their movement.
Grey Templar wrote: On a glancing blow. Blasters, due to being energy weapons, aren't going to deflect off of concrete. Their blast marks should be large enough to walk through.
Depends on how much energy is liberated when the bit of plasma hits the target.
True, heavy ship-mounted blasters can superheat and vaporize a 30 meter asteroid. But, the amount of gas which can be converted into plasma and accelerated to the target would be far higher for a capital ship versus a fighter versus a crew-served gun versus a personal blaster. So, the "standard" E-11 blaster can only vaporize a first-size chuck of wall.
It would work the same way with a glancing hit as well; the plasma isn't all going directly into the target; some of it will (and superheat a small portion of the target), some of it will continue on the path it was accelerated toward. Same with a bullet that hits concrete directly (most energy breaks apart the concrete, some breaks apart the bullet, some converted into heat and sound, etc) versus a glance. But also, keep in mind that bullet isn't vaporizing the concrete, just breaking it up. The star wars blaster (let's call them plasma guns, since they are pretty much described that way) bolts are very efficient at converting their energy into heat upon impact with a solid object.
Now, it takes an incredible amount of energy to superheat a chuck of rock so fast it turns into dust and vapor, far more than can be duplicated by a modern firearm. 7.5 Megajoules for 1 kg of rock/concrete/iron (a fist-size chuck of wall). Which, is about half the energy of a tank round.
So, back to the unimpressive E-11 blaster rifles which will be facing our stalwart Astartes. Two shots from the stormtrooper plasma rifle are the energy equivalent of being shot point blank range by an M1A1 tank. There may be some difference if that E-11 plasma bolt was converting it's energy into something else upon impact.
But, again...only unimpressive when blasters hit Greedo, stormtroopers, rebels, Ewoks, etc. Which would be superheated from room temperature to slightly under 100,000 degrees since water is so efficient at storing heat. Of course there's not enough pressure to contain the vaporizing rebel and allow the poor chap to continue to heat, so I'd assume a non-PG effect would be the area around the impact "pops" as flesh/blood/bone is near-instantly converted to steam, and most of the plasma bolt returns to gas and dissipates as there's not enough pressure to contain the target vapor and allow it to continue to rise in temperature until it converts to plasma.
Anyways, I agree...Star Wars movie blasters don't do jack when they hit rebels. But, they do have effects when they hit "stuff", that effect can be measured in joules, and those joules can be used to say what would happen if Star Wars wasn't PG and it can be compared to modern kinetic energy weapons.
It doesn't matter if Blasters are even capable of megajoule level shots, because we know two things-
1) Everybody in Star Wars is too damn stupid to use those firepower settings against anything that isn't a wall, much like phasers in Star Trek. It doesn't matter how powerful the weapon is if the blockhead using it doesn't even remember how to properly use it in the first place without breaking out of character.
2) Those megajoule level shots are questionable in the first place considering the unarmored humans standing near those shots do not suddenly ignite/melt. Not to mention that blasters actually have kick, so firing off megajoule shots should definitely have a very visible effect on their shoulders.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/12/08 05:12:03
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
If we use some EU sources, its also shown that Jedi have issues with solid projectile weaponry as they cannot deflect the projectiles as easy as blaster bolts. And the first jedi who tries to block a Bolt shell is going to end up with a face full of shrapnel. Not to mention he'd be fighting an opponent with better base reflexes and at best the Force lets him move equally fast, if he specialized in enhancement force powers that is.
If we talk ground forces in general, Star Wars has a chronic lack of actual military ground forces and equipment. Star Wars 'Armies' that would be dwarfed by the entire armed forces of most European countries take entire star systems full of billions of people. The Star Wars universe is basically full of wussies. The Imperium has lost more men taking single cities than made up the entire Grand Army of the Republic and the Separatist forces combined.
Star Wars vehicles make 40k seem immensely practical. The AT-AT, the most powerful assault walker in Star Wars, is basically a sitting duck. Its slow, is chronically under-gunned, has a turning radius the size of a city block, and doesn't even have shielding to compensate for it being a bullet sponge. Titans at least have insanely powerful shields and decent speed and maneuverability to cover them being so large.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/08 05:23:04
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: If we use some EU sources, its also shown that Jedi have issues with solid projectile weaponry as they cannot deflect the projectiles as easy as blaster bolts. And the first jedi who tries to block a Bolt shell is going to end up with a face full of shrapnel. Not to mention he'd be fighting an opponent with better base reflexes and at best the Force lets him move equally fast, if he specialized in enhancement force powers that is.
If we talk ground forces in general, Star Wars has a chronic lack of actual military ground forces and equipment. Star Wars 'Armies' that would be dwarfed by the entire armed forces of most European countries take entire star systems full of billions of people. The Star Wars universe is basically full of wussies. The Imperium has lost more men taking single cities than made up the entire Grand Army of the Republic and the Separatist forces combined.
Star Wars vehicles make 40k seem immensely practical. The AT-AT, the most powerful assault walker in Star Wars, is basically a sitting duck. Its slow, is chronically under-gunned, has a turning radius the size of a city block, and doesn't even have shielding to compensate for it being a bullet sponge. Titans at least have insanely powerful shields and decent speed and maneuverability to cover them being so large.
Not even that. If a Jedi tried to block a solid slug with his lightsaber, IE a normal bullet, the lightsaber would vaporize the bullet... but the hot gas the bullet turned into would maintain momentum. So all the Jedi would do is get scalding air puffing into his face giving him/her third or second degree burns.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Wyzilla wrote: No they don't. The Imperium's ships have gigaton and teraton level firepower. The Empire's turbolasers are only comparable to nukes in the height of the Cold War or slightly above (we've seen fights in-atmosphere between the CIS and Republic, there are no nuclear fireballs despite there being oxygen to supply such things outside of space), the only thing special about Star Wars ships are the super weapons like the Death Star. Outside of that pound-for-pound they're laughably outgunned.
The EU numbers only confirmed what was already known from analyzing the films. Getting rid of the EU means losing the exact answer, but there's still pretty clear evidence that Star Wars ship weapons are in the same general class as 40k weapons.
Also, you do realize that this "we don't see extinction-level events" argument applies just as well to 40k, right? We see 40k starships firing at ground targets all the time and the effect often seems to be barely more than some real-world mortar shells.
Remember people, the EU is retconned and shoved off to a non canon alternate universe. It's dead Jim.
This is a serious misunderstanding of a vague quote. We know that Disney will not hesitate to contradict EU material in the future, but they haven't explicitly said that the old EU material is all discarded. In fact the old EU books/games/etc are still being sold, things from the old EU are still being referenced in current licensed products, and Disney seems to be perfectly happy to have a 40k-style canon policy where everything is true from a certain point of view and the individual fan gets to decide what is in their personal version of Star Wars.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I didn't mean using the lightsaber, I mean trying to use the force to deflect the projectile.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: If we talk ground forces in general, Star Wars has a chronic lack of actual military ground forces and equipment. Star Wars 'Armies' that would be dwarfed by the entire armed forces of most European countries take entire star systems full of billions of people.
So, just like 40k.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Grey Templar wrote: If we talk ground forces in general, Star Wars has a chronic lack of actual military ground forces and equipment. Star Wars 'Armies' that would be dwarfed by the entire armed forces of most European countries take entire star systems full of billions of people.
So, just like 40k.
No, 40k armies are massive. Millions, or sometimes billions, of guardsmen will be deployed to take a single planet.
Overall the IG consists of billions upon billions of soldiers, and the Imperium alone has so many people living in it they cannot even count them all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/08 05:37:36
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: No, 40k armies are massive. Millions, or sometimes billions, of guardsmen will be deployed to take a single planet.
Overall the IG consists of billions upon billions of soldiers, and the Imperium alone has so many people living in it they cannot even count them all.
And then, contrasting with that, we have things like the siege of Vraks where 14 million dead guardsmen in 17 years is considered a really huge number despite being less than the casualties in WWI and spread out over three times longer. Or the idea that a squad or two of space marines can conquer an entire planet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/08 05:50:54
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Wyzilla wrote: No they don't. The Imperium's ships have gigaton and teraton level firepower. The Empire's turbolasers are only comparable to nukes in the height of the Cold War or slightly above (we've seen fights in-atmosphere between the CIS and Republic, there are no nuclear fireballs despite there being oxygen to supply such things outside of space), the only thing special about Star Wars ships are the super weapons like the Death Star. Outside of that pound-for-pound they're laughably outgunned.
The EU numbers only confirmed what was already known from analyzing the films. Getting rid of the EU means losing the exact answer, but there's still pretty clear evidence that Star Wars ship weapons are in the same general class as 40k weapons.
No it doesn't. The EU gives triple digit gigatons as yields for some of the weakest ships in the Clone Wars, when anybody with a brain can clearly see in the Clone Wars TV show this is not the case given the lack of fireballs obscuring the entire screen from view.
Here we clearly see the capital ships of the Republic Navy slugging it out with CIS frigates in-atmosphere, and there is a very clear lack of terrific fireballs preventing us from seeing anything, at all.
Also, you do realize that this "we don't see extinction-level events" argument applies just as well to 40k, right? We see 40k starships firing at ground targets all the time and the effect often seems to be barely more than some real-world mortar shells.
Or you've suddenly forgotten the number one rule of all combat in 40k- planets are sacred and to slag them is the most heinous crime unless there is absolutely no other option. Not even Chaos is often willing to slag planets because they actually want something they can use after the battle, although we still have plenty of examples of gigaton or teraton levels of firepower. Or have you forgotten that the Night Lords Fleet managed to completely blow up Nostrmo merely with concentrated lance fire for a day?
(Not to mention that Nostramo blew up in such a terrific fashion that you can find chunks of it over two hundred lightyears from its original point, which speaks for some truly hilarious acceleration from the explosion.)
Remember people, the EU is retconned and shoved off to a non canon alternate universe. It's dead Jim.
This is a serious misunderstanding of a vague quote. We know that Disney will not hesitate to contradict EU material in the future, but they haven't explicitly said that the old EU material is all discarded. In fact the old EU books/games/etc are still being sold, things from the old EU are still being referenced in current licensed products, and Disney seems to be perfectly happy to have a 40k-style canon policy where everything is true from a certain point of view and the individual fan gets to decide what is in their personal version of Star Wars.
Only if your primary language isn't English. Disney directly retconned the EU, to the point it made actual headlines of some online papers and on twitter they made it even clearer that the EU is no longer canon- it's part of the Legends universe which is the old continuity onto itself, and is no longer being updated. It's dead. Disney/Lucasfilm doesn't give a flying feth about what the fans think concerning the continuity of the old universe, they wiped it clean for the new movies, new books, new shows, and new games.
And of course they're still being sold, DIsney wants money. That has nothing to do with them being canon. There's no 40k 'well it's whatever you like policy', they brought the hammer down on the old EU, and you'd know this if you weren't living under a rock.
The only way stuff from the EU is reappearing in Star Wars is if shows like Rebels or the new officially approved books basically cannibalize the old material and rip off the work of previous authors.
As of today, the official, canonical story of Star Wars consists of "the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content [George Lucas] developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars." (This includes the upcoming Darth Maul comic adapted from TCW material.)
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Wyzilla wrote: No it doesn't. The EU gives triple digit gigatons as yields for some of the weakest ships in the Clone Wars, when anybody with a brain can clearly see in the Clone Wars TV show this is not the case given the lack of fireballs obscuring the entire screen from view.
Or you've suddenly forgotten the number one rule of all combat in 40k- planets are sacred and to slag them is the most heinous crime unless there is absolutely no other option. Not even Chaos is often willing to slag planets because they actually want something they can use after the battle, although we still have plenty of examples of gigaton or teraton levels of firepower. Or have you forgotten that the Night Lords Fleet managed to completely blow up Nostrmo merely with concentrated lance fire for a day?
I see. So "they don't use their full firepower when they might damage planets beyond repair" applies to 40k, but nobody could possibly use the same principle in Star Wars?
Disney directly retconned the EU, to the point it made actual headlines of some online papers and on twitter they made it even clearer that the EU is no longer canon- it's part of the Legends universe which is the old continuity onto itself, and is no longer being updated.
The fact that some news sources were very loud about their misunderstanding doesn't make it correct. Did you actually read the announcement you linked to? I'll copy/paste the important part for you here:
While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded.
So I think I'll take an official statement that the EU is not discarded over fan theories that it is.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
It looks bleak for the SW universe, but let's not forget plot armour. I would put jar-jar binks against a chapter of space marines and expect him to accidentally come out on top. Mesa do that?
There are three possible canons you could use to debate this,
1. New Canon. Which is the movies, the clone wars TV show, and anything made after Disney's acquisition. It's pretty grim for the Star Wars Galaxy in this canon.
2. The Old Expanded Universe. The entire 40k galaxy is in trouble.
3. The Expanded Universe + Qualifying Infinities story lines. Eh feth this one. We didn't even count infinities when the expanded universe was a thing. But probably even more ultra fethed depending on which infinity universe your using. They were essentially one of what if stories. So hypothetically if someone chose this from a debate point they could.
Mallich wrote: Did the Stormtroopers graduate from the Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy? If so they'll all have a Ballistic Skill of minus 2.
Lets look at instances of Stormtroopers shooting that we know of:
A New Hope
Battle on the Tantive IV: Stormtroopers are expert marksmen, killing and stunning with the best of them
Hunting the droids on Tatoonie: disabling a Sandcrawler, slaughtering countless Jawa and killing Beru and Owen
Mos Eisley Spaceport: Shots land on the Falcon but miss Han
Death Star encounters: Keeping up with Leia, Luke and Han as they make way to the dock
Battle of Yavin: Every single fighting is destroyed or damaged except for Luke
Empire Strikes Back
The Battle of Hoth: Obvious Imperial victory, Stormtroopers are extremely successful. Rebel ships escape due to the ion cannon, which was unknown to the Empire.
Escape from Hoth: The Falcon escapes Imperial capture by luck and skill of Han
Cloud City: The troopers constantly miss hitting Luke. Lando, Leia and Chewie escape because the Cloud City guards intervene against the Empire, whom they outnumbered.
Return of the Jedi
Speeder Bike chase on Endor: Luke and Leia survive and kill several scouts
Shield Generator: The Rebels win thanks to the Ewoks and get in. Discovered that it was a trap and they were captured.
Battle over Endor: Rebels get their butts handed to them by the Imperial Fleet.
Battle over Endor part 2: Rebels win and destroy the Death Star once the shield was brought down.
Now, here's the point. In ANH, all the times we see the Empire sucking at combat was on the Death Star as the trio made their escape. Their escape, aboard the Falcon that had been outfitted with a tracking device, a tracking device that led the Empire to the Rebel base on Yavin. They were allowed to escape because that escape took the Empire to where the Rebellion leadership was, and in one move they would have crippled the Rebellion. The Battle of the First Death Star was an evenly matched fight, barely won by the Rebels due to them finding a weakness in the station that the Empire didn't consider significant.
In ESB, the only time the Empire sucks at fighting is on Cloud City, against Luke. Due to their fighting Luke ended up in the Freezing Chamber where Vader was waiting for him. Ever think that maybe that was their orders, lead him to where Vader wanted him so that he could try and turn him? Lando and Leia only got away because of the Cloud City Guards, who outnumbered the Empire.
In RTJ the Empire loses at the Shield Generator and in the Battle of the Second Death Star. The Battle of the Second Death Star was only lost due to the Shield Generator going down, otherwise it would have ended in a defeat for the Rebellion, a major defeat. The Rebels winning at the generator was only due to the Ewoks, which the Empire didn't consider a threat and didn't anticipate being part of the battle. Even still, the Empire would have still won because they captured Han and his team in the Generator Station. That was only turned around because Chewie had managed to capture and take control of an AT-ST earlier. Had Chewie not gotten into that AT-ST the rebels would have never destroyed the generator and by extension the Death Star.
The point of all this? The only times the Stormtroopers (and whole of the Empire) does poorly was when it benefited the plans of Vader and the Emperor. The only exception to this was the Battle on Endor, which was because they underestimated the Ewoks and were unprepared for them and their style of combat. So, in the end, no, the Stormtroopers and Empire were not bad shots, in fact, it's the opposite.
Psienesis wrote: They killed Owen and Beru by setting the house on fire. They didn't shoot them, they were blackened corpses on the ground.
The bodies weren't bound, and the house wasn't that badly destroyed. They were probably shot first, and the fire was started by accident. Remember, the Stormies were there for information, it wasn't a terror attack.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Round 1: 1 Space Marine vs 1 Storm Trooper (Star Wars)
SPACE MARINE
Round 2: 10 Space Marines vs 100 Storm Troopers
SPACE MARINE
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
EMPEROR"S GUARD
Round 4: 1 Space Marine Chapter including vehicles vs Stormtrooper Regiment (2500 Stormtroopers plus vehicles)
SPACE MARINES
Round 5: All resources from the Imperium (1 million Space Marines, billions of Guardsmen, and so on) vs all soldiers and military units portrayed in the Star Wars movies (Stormtroopers, Clones, Rebels, and so on)
Location: The Hoth system.
IMPERIAL FLEET (star wars) WIPES THE FLOOR WITH IMPERIUM FLEET WHO DON"T EVEN KNOW HOW THIER SHIPS FULLY WORK. BOOTS ON GROUND DON'T MATTER IMPERIAL FORCES LAUGH AND LEAVE SPACE MARINES AND OTHER FORCES TO DIE OF STARVATION AND COLD EXPOSURE AFTER BOMBING THE HELL OUT OF ANY SPACECRAFT SO THEY CAN"T ESCAPE.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/08 15:41:14
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