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 Grey Templar wrote:

Except in the case of Star Wars its not artistic license.

2 Star Destroyers collide trying to chase the Millennium Falcon.

Lando orders the Alliance fleet to engage the opposing Star Destroyers at point blank range. We see a Star Destroyer and a Mon Cal Cruiser duking it out well within 100 meters of each other shortly afterwards.

Just as above, we see Federation and Republic cruisers in battle above Coruscant at similar ranges

Templar, everything you've listed emphasises my point. There would have been zero tension from an audience If the two destroyers were shown to be within a mile of eachothers flight paths at 10,000k out. Likewise as I said, if said ships were duking it out at 10,000k that makes for camera action that is either dull or jarring. The engagement distances in the novels and reference books are stated to be far greater than what is shown on screen. Star Wars is no different to other sci-fi space battles with regard to condensing distances in visual depictions.

As for A wing taking out the Executor's bridge, that came up earlier and yeah it's pretty lame, and contradictory to the level of protection such a ship is shown to have against enemy capital ship weaponry. But discrepencies like this are commonplace in sci-fi: I'm reminded of something in the 2004 remake of Battlestar Galactica, wherein the ships hull took multiple hits from nuclear missiles without breeching, yet suffers explosive decompression from. yes, a HAND GRENADE going off in the interior!

 Grey Templar wrote:
You cannot enter Hyperspace in Star Wars too close to a large gravity source.

{citation needed}

When answering this question please provide a movie source, not an EU source, since you've decided to reject the EU numbers for firepower as "not canon".

Wyzilla wrote:

Also it's unusable unless you like getting eaten by Daemons. The Necrons have largely abandoned it because its containment was breached.

You what? No, there are no daemons in the Necron hyperspace, and they have not abandoned their use of it, where on earth did you get that idea?

Peregrine wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
You cannot enter Hyperspace in Star Wars too close to a large gravity source.

{citation needed}

When answering this question please provide a movie source, not an EU source, since you've decided to reject the EU numbers for firepower as "not canon".

Battle of Hoth. They needed the Ion Cannon to disable the Star Destroyers because the transports couldn't go to Hyperdrive until they'd escaped the planet's gravity well, which meant getting past the blockade.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Battle of Hoth. They needed the Ion Cannon to disable the Star Destroyers because the transports couldn't go to Hyperdrive until they'd escaped the planet's gravity well, which meant getting past the blockade.

Is this ever explicitly stated on-screen? I can't remember anyone saying it.

I'm going to bed, but you can check;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BkOVSFb2Zw

It's where the whole "ten parsecs" comes into play. He's talking about being able to swing the falcon as close as possible to the massive gravity sources in that sector, making the distance travelled far smaller.

 welshhoppo wrote:
It's where the whole "ten parsecs" comes into play. He's talking about being able to swing the falcon as close as possible to the massive gravity sources in that sector, making the distance travelled far smaller.

This is also an EU source. So, if you want to use it you can no longer discard the EU firepower numbers.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
You cannot enter Hyperspace in Star Wars too close to a large gravity source.

{citation needed}

When answering this question please provide a movie source, not an EU source, since you've decided to reject the EU numbers for firepower as "not canon".

Much as I agree with you on the whole debate Peregrine, one of the latest episodes of Rebels introduced the first canon appearance of an Interdictor class star destroyer.

 Peregrine wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
It's where the whole "ten parsecs" comes into play. He's talking about being able to swing the falcon as close as possible to the massive gravity sources in that sector, making the distance travelled far smaller.

This is also an EU source. So, if you want to use it you can no longer discard the EU firepower numbers.

No one as far as I'm aware is disregarding the entirety of the EU. The energy values are disregarded because they conflict with what is seen on-screen, and film canon trumps EU canon when there is a conflict, and only when there is a conflict. And if I recall correctly, you simply discarded a canonical value for a battleship's maximum operational speed on the grounds of it being ludicrous, without even bothering to make a canonical argument. If you're going to be a pedantic ass over what can and cannot be used as evidence, why don't you follow your own standards?

 asorel wrote:
The energy values are disregarded because they conflict with what is seen on-screen

They don't conflict. In fact, they're pretty well supported by the scene where a star destroyer's light point defense guns are vaporizing asteroids with single shots.

And if I recall correctly, you simply discarded a canonical value for a battleship's maximum operational speed on the grounds of it being ludicrous, without even bothering to make a canonical argument.

What canonical argument is there about this? Talking about maximum speed in space makes about as much sense as "THE BATTALSHIPS SDGFNLSDFKJGSFDLKJGLDFSGJ IS $W)(%)($#)R%))(W$%R". There's nothing to say to that besides "no, it doesn't work that way".

pm713 wrote:
Except the Star Wars ships can't actually go anywhere in the Imperium. So their ships can be as good as anything and be useless.

Well considering the setting is on Hoth, not being able to navigate the imperium doesnt matter.

 Peregrine wrote:

 asorel wrote:
The energy values are disregarded because they conflict with what is seen on-screen

They don't conflict. In fact, they're pretty well supported by the scene where a star destroyer's light point defense guns are vaporizing asteroids with single shots.

And if I recall correctly, you simply discarded a canonical value for a battleship's maximum operational speed on the grounds of it being ludicrous, without even bothering to make a canonical argument.

What canonical argument is there about this? Talking about maximum speed in space makes about as much sense as "THE BATTALSHIPS SDGFNLSDFKJGSFDLKJGLDFSGJ IS $W)(%)($#)R%))(W$%R". There's nothing to say to that besides "no, it doesn't work that way".

Still ignoring the part about your own hypocrisy, I see. And that one asteroid doesn't account for the other contradictions, such as turbo laser salvos not blinding everyone looking at the battle, or blasters not doing anything more than singing their targets. And I can twist that asteroid scene until it fits my arguments, too. Maybe the asteroid was porous. Maybe it was smaller than it appears on-screen, and camera work led you to believe it was larger.

I specifically said operational velocity. As in the maximum relative speed at which the vessel may still maneuver with precision, or the highest speed it can maintain relative to its targets while still being able to fire with accuracy.

Finally, this all avoids a more essential question: if you're so confident that SW can beat 40k in this pissing contest, why are you fighting so hard for the crutch of these clearly unreasonable values?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:

Also it's unusable unless you like getting eaten by Daemons. The Necrons have largely abandoned it because its containment was breached.

You what? No, there are no daemons in the Necron hyperspace, and they have not abandoned their use of it, where on earth did you get that idea?

Peregrine wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
You cannot enter Hyperspace in Star Wars too close to a large gravity source.

{citation needed}

When answering this question please provide a movie source, not an EU source, since you've decided to reject the EU numbers for firepower as "not canon".

Battle of Hoth. They needed the Ion Cannon to disable the Star Destroyers because the transports couldn't go to Hyperdrive until they'd escaped the planet's gravity well, which meant getting past the blockade.

Codex Necrons 5th Edition
"Necrons were ever masters of transcendant physics, pocket dimensions and hyper-geometry, and these sciences are put to full effect wherever they can serve useful function. Many Tomb Worlds and strongholds are far more vast within than they might appear from the outside, or are protected by energy labyrinths of impossible size. Some specialized troops, notably Deathmarks, regularly employ pocket dimensions as vantage points from which to hunt their foes, and the more accomplished nemesors can conceal entire armies and fleets in slivers of out-of-phase reality. Yet as confounding as these technologies might be to the other races of the galaxy, there is one enemy whom they are no defense. To the Daemons of the Warp, such technological conjurings are merely another flavour of existence to be corrupted and devoured."

Yes, Hyperspace has been compromised. It is no longer safe from Daemons.

 asorel wrote:
Still ignoring the part about your own hypocrisy, I see.

There is no hypocrisy because they are two completely different situations.

I am criticizing people for selectively applying the "the EU is no longer canon" argument to include EU sources that make Star Wars look bad but reject the ones with the best numbers.

I am rejecting a canon number because it is incoherent nonsense. It's like claiming "the battleship's guns have a firepower of 9999999 meters per square volt", it doesn't matter if the words are canon or not because the meaning of those words is so obviously not a reasonable thing to say.

And that one asteroid doesn't account for the other contradictions, such as turbo laser salvos not blinding everyone looking at the battle, or blasters not doing anything more than singing their targets.

Ok, sure, failing to blind everyone looking at the battle means the guns don't have that much firepower. Too bad this applies equally well to 40k, bringing their firepower down to the same level.

And I can twist that asteroid scene until it fits my arguments, too. Maybe the asteroid was porous. Maybe it was smaller than it appears on-screen, and camera work led you to believe it was larger.

Well yes, if you're going to twist your interpretation to fit your belief about which side should win you can come up with absurd arguments like "the asteroids could have been hollow balls of foam instead of rocks". But if you attempt to objectively analyze the film evidence without trying to force it to fit a particular conclusion then the numbers you get are much higher than you're claiming.

I specifically said operational velocity. As in the maximum relative speed at which the vessel may still maneuver with precision, or the highest speed it can maintain relative to its targets while still being able to fire with accuracy.

The number was specifically cited as a maximum speed, not typical combat speed.

Finally, this all avoids a more essential question: if you're so confident that SW can beat 40k in this pissing contest, why are you fighting so hard for the crutch of these clearly unreasonable values?

Because the numbers are accurate. The fact that they don't let 40k win like you want it to doesn't make the numbers unreasonable.

 Peregrine wrote:

And I can twist that asteroid scene until it fits my arguments, too. Maybe the asteroid was porous. Maybe it was smaller than it appears on-screen, and camera work led you to believe it was larger.

Well yes, if you're going to twist your interpretation to fit your belief about which side should win you can come up with absurd arguments like "the asteroids could have been hollow balls of foam instead of rocks". But if you attempt to objectively analyze the film evidence without trying to force it to fit a particular conclusion then the numbers you get are much higher than you're claiming.

Well technically they weren't real asteroids, they were special effects.

Then technically SW wins, because those aren't Stormtroopers, they're just film extras and stuntmen.

 Psienesis wrote:
Then technically SW wins, because those aren't Stormtroopers, they're just film extras and stuntmen.

But those stuntmen and all the people in the films are on Earth which is part of the Imperium of Man universe. So no one actually lives in the Star Wars Universe to fight for that side, thus they lose by disqualification.

But everyone and everything in 40k is, at most, a foot, maybe 2 feet tall. The vast majority of people being some two, two and a half inches.

 Psienesis wrote:
But everyone and everything in 40k is, at most, a foot, maybe 2 feet tall. The vast majority of people being some two, two and a half inches.

You forget the legions of cosplayers. And remember, there are thousands of those 28mm men. And while those stuntmen may have Apocalyptic Blast stomp attacks, they're still only Toughness 3 with a 6+ t-shirt save.

 Psienesis wrote:
But everyone and everything in 40k is, at most, a foot, maybe 2 feet tall. The vast majority of people being some two, two and a half inches.

Humans on Earth are full size and alive. Earth is part of the Imperium of Man.

 MeanAss_Demasoni wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
But everyone and everything in 40k is, at most, a foot, maybe 2 feet tall. The vast majority of people being some two, two and a half inches.

Humans on Earth are full size and alive. Earth is part of the Imperium of Man.

The Imperium of Man isn't going to exist for four more cycles of the entirety of recorded human history.

The humans that live on Earth that are part of the Imperium of Man own the intellectual property that is the Star Wars Universe. They have god-like powers over that universe in fact. The toughest thing in the Star Wars galaxy can be destroyed by a mere publication by these humans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 MeanAss_Demasoni wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
But everyone and everything in 40k is, at most, a foot, maybe 2 feet tall. The vast majority of people being some two, two and a half inches.

Humans on Earth are full size and alive. Earth is part of the Imperium of Man.

The Imperium of Man isn't going to exist for four more cycles of the entirety of recorded human history.

But once it does man.... Winning!

The Imperium of Man doesn't exist yet. Star Wars began a long, long time ago. Prior establishment clause dictates that another party cannot lay claim to the properties of a pre-existing entity.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Imperium of Man doesn't exist yet. Star Wars began a long, long time ago. Prior establishment clause dictates that another party cannot lay claim to the properties of a pre-existing entity.

Interesting twist, from a legal property stand point. However the humans still have control whether or not ownership is legitimate.

Also, the Emperor is the law.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Due to the heresy of this thread, Star Wars will be purged from the records of mankind and will no longer exist as an idea by the time of the 41st millennium. So at that time, Star Wars will be completed destroyed by the 40K Universe.

On the topic of hyperspace, in both the FIrst and Second Battle for Balmorra, the Republic used planetside hyperspace beacons to direct craft to drop out of hyperspace directly above key points of the planet. This was later used in the Second Sith Wars to drop assault teams directly onto planets, entire battalions of troops, support vessels and transports.

This was later used in TCW when Obi-Wan orders the Clone Troopers to follow Anakin to Yavin, they drop out of hyperspace in the atmosphere of the planet.

 Psienesis wrote:
On the topic of hyperspace, in both the FIrst and Second Battle for Balmorra, the Republic used planetside hyperspace beacons to direct craft to drop out of hyperspace directly above key points of the planet. This was later used in the Second Sith Wars to drop assault teams directly onto planets, entire battalions of troops, support vessels and transports.

This was later used in TCW when Obi-Wan orders the Clone Troopers to follow Anakin to Yavin, they drop out of hyperspace in the atmosphere of the planet.

The gravity well limitation is more for jumping out than jumping in. In all of those scenarios, ships dropped out of hyperspace near a planet, but you make no mention of a departure just as swift.

Gravity wells cause ships to drop out of hyperspace AND be unable to reenter. The recent episode or Rebels, with the Interdictor class Star Destroyer. For those who don't know, an Interdictor is a smaller SD with large gravity well generators. In the show the Interdictor not only pulls the rebels out of hyperspace unexpectedly (the ship is a new class at this point, never before seen) but also prevents escape while functional.

The question becomes how close you can get. In the show we see the ship that is pulled out of hyperspace does not simply drop out- they come out spinning. In the depths of space that's not such a big issue, plenty of room to reorient yourself. Doing so next to a planet or star could easily be disastrous.

That said, if you're expecting the drop out it can probably be far better mitigated. If you have some sort of beacon or guidance system even better. But clearly travelling around in SW style hyperspace with no astrological data is risky, which is probably what Han meant when he talked about ending Luke's trip real fast.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Imperial Guard alone could mop up the Star Wars forces. Did you know the Grand Army of the Republic only had a couple of million fighting men at any one time? Pathetically low numbers.

The Imperium has at least that many soldiers shamming off in the motor pool at any given time.

 Peregrine wrote:

I am rejecting a canon number because it is incoherent nonsense. It's like claiming "the battleship's guns have a firepower of 9999999 meters per square volt", it doesn't matter if the words are canon or not because the meaning of those words is so obviously not a reasonable thing to say.

My personal problem with SW firepower, from various SD.net discussions, is that the numbers just don't seem to consistently reconcile with on screen effects.

Here's an upcoming Rebels episode preview (spoilers) where we see a TIE fighter get blasted by one of the turbo laser turrets. This is not a point defense weapon, such as those that destroy the asteroid. Like every other ship we see- including the one shot by the DS2- the thing does not vaporize. And a TIE has significantly less mass than an asteroid.

So, bigger gun, smaller mass target, no vaporization.

Which isn't to say I think the IoM would win the space battle- I don't. But I think that asteroid scene is a stand out and a product of special effect limitations of its day.

 Peregrine wrote:

 asorel wrote:
Still ignoring the part about your own hypocrisy, I see.

I am rejecting a canon number because it is incoherent nonsense. It's like claiming "the battleship's guns have a firepower of 9999999 meters per square volt", it doesn't matter if the words are canon or not because the meaning of those words is so obviously not a reasonable thing to say.

It doesn't matter how ridiculous it is- your opinion on its ridiculous nature is irrelevant, canon's canon. If author X declares something has X Biiggatons in a novel, it has X amount of biggatons. That's the end of it, because the author has the final say on their material, or at least until enough time has passed that it becomes public property and death of the author takes actual effect, although even then the legitimacy of people's opinions concerning what the author penned are debatable. What's debatable if people's own calculations made entirely separate of the official material turn out nonsensical (like "vaporization" calcs) or if there's a canon policy that renders something invalid- for example under the old canon policy of Star Wars (movies > tv show > comics, books, and videogames) and a book like the ICS AOTC mentions 200 gigatons, which conflicts directly with the visuals of the movies (because there are no gigatons to be seen outside of the Death Star). Although that's an old, ooolllld matter with the retcon basically resetting the clock when it comes to figuring out just how big the booms are in Star Wars to the 1990's and early 00's.