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The main difference between an AT-AT and a Titan is that AT-ATs can be fielded in large numbers, and losing one, or a hundred, isn't that big a deal.

Losing a hundred Titans is something the Imperium cannot replace.

Given that the Galactic Empire's army only numbered a few million soldiers total, at most, I don't think AT-ATs outnumber Titans. Not even close.

And numbers don't matter much when they wouldn't do jack squat to any Titan. They're outmaneuvered and outgunned.

 Psienesis wrote:
The main difference between an AT-AT and a Titan is that AT-ATs can be fielded in large numbers, and losing one, or a hundred, isn't that big a deal.

Losing a hundred Titans is something the Imperium cannot replace.

It can, just not at insanely quickly. And it depends on what sort of Titan it is, the nature of the losses, the temporal spacing of the losses, and what, if anything, those sacrifices netted the Imperium.

Given that Titans are relics of the Great Crusade and the Golden Age, I don't think the Imperium has any it can afford to lose. The difference being that the Galactic Empire can crank out an AT-AT through droid manufacturing in a matter of weeks, where any Titan the Imperium will build requires centuries.

The turbo-lasers on the AT-AT are at least on par with a Shadowsword or other Titan-killing 40k tank, with a vastly higher rate of fire, which will serve them well against a Titan's Void Shields.

Depending on the battlefield, the AT-AT may also be able to take advantage of terrain that the Titan cannot (AT-AT are tall, but not as tall as the tallest Titans).

As far as quickly turning? The film ESB shows them turning fairly quickly, when Veers' AT-AT turns to target the shield generator. It turns by doing a bit of a side-step maneuver... if it wants to turn left, the left-side legs "step in" (to be under the main body) while the right legs then step out, and it repeats this maneuver until it comes fully about.

It is not as fast as a biped like a Titan, of course, but not as slow as turning a naval battleship, as has been implied ITT. They also, likewise depicted on-screen in ESB, have the ability to adjust the positioning of the legs to permit a limited "torso twist" which, combined with the head's ability to turn, provides essentially a 180 degree firing arc.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given that the Galactic Empire's army only numbered a few million soldiers total, at most, I don't think AT-ATs outnumber Titans. Not even close.

According to Wookiepedia:

The Imperial I-class Star Destroyer was a model of Imperial-class Star Destroyer in the service of the Imperial Navy. A wedge-shaped capital ship, it was bristling with weapons emplacements. Its ventral hangar could launch land assault troops, boarding crafts, and TIE fighters. In the heyday of the Empire, its command bridge was staffed by the finest crewmen in the navy.

At first, Star Destroyers were deployed to sectors and systems caught in the aftermath of the Clone Wars, where they would crush any signs of sedition. During the Galactic Civil War the Destroyer's roles changed to hunting down high value Rebel targets and bases. They fought in such battles as the secret mission to Tatooine, Battle of Hoth, and Battle of Endor. At the peak of the Empire, over 25,000 of these ships were in existence.

Complement
TIE/LN starfighters (72)
Lambda-class T-4a shuttles (8)
AT-AT walkers (20)
AT-ST or AT-DP walkers (30)
Imperial Troop Transport (15)
Crew
Officers (9,235)
Enlisted (27,850)
Stormtroopers (9,700)

It seems to me the GE is significantly larger than 'a few million soldiers'.

Thats the Imperial Navy. Which in a galactic setting is going to outnumber ground forces usually. Those complement numbers are only its transport capacity, its not what every star destroyer has at all times.

25,000 Capital ships is also a painfully low number. The Imperium has more warships than that defending Terra alone. Furthermore, the vast bulk of those ships would be tied up maintaining order across the Empire, they couldn't devote more than a handful to any actual war effort(in the EU, this was one reason, albeit not a great one, given that the Rebellion was successful with so few soldiers)

And even if they did, 20 AT-ATs are worthless. A single Warhound could probably take them all out and suffer little to no damage.

It is not as fast as a biped like a Titan, of course, but not as slow as turning a naval battleship, as has been implied ITT. They also, likewise depicted on-screen in ESB, have the ability to adjust the positioning of the legs to permit a limited "torso twist" which, combined with the head's ability to turn, provides essentially a 180 degree firing arc.

So in order to fire beyond 45 degrees, it has to compromise its mobility to brace itself so it can overextend and turn its head to bear. As we saw in the movies, that maneuver took several seconds. Seconds during which time you've already been smacked with a Turbolaser or have just had the Warhound circle completely around to the rear. And the Warhound has been pummeling you the entire time.

The AT-ATs have no shields, so their legs are completely vulnerable to being shot at. The only reason that was never a problem was because Blasters are terrible weapons in general, so instead it took some 1 gauge wire and a harpoon. Titans will simply kneecap every AT-AT they encounter from long range, while also being able to take advantage of cover. Even if AT-AT armor can actually withstand any direct hits, they'll almost certainly get knocked over by the impacts even if they survive. Or the troops inside get turned to jelly.

 Kojiro wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given that the Galactic Empire's army only numbered a few million soldiers total, at most, I don't think AT-ATs outnumber Titans. Not even close.

According to Wookiepedia:

The Imperial I-class Star Destroyer was a model of Imperial-class Star Destroyer in the service of the Imperial Navy. A wedge-shaped capital ship, it was bristling with weapons emplacements. Its ventral hangar could launch land assault troops, boarding crafts, and TIE fighters. In the heyday of the Empire, its command bridge was staffed by the finest crewmen in the navy.

At first, Star Destroyers were deployed to sectors and systems caught in the aftermath of the Clone Wars, where they would crush any signs of sedition. During the Galactic Civil War the Destroyer's roles changed to hunting down high value Rebel targets and bases. They fought in such battles as the secret mission to Tatooine, Battle of Hoth, and Battle of Endor. At the peak of the Empire, over 25,000 of these ships were in existence.

Complement
TIE/LN starfighters (72)
Lambda-class T-4a shuttles (8)
AT-AT walkers (20)
AT-ST or AT-DP walkers (30)
Imperial Troop Transport (15)
Crew
Officers (9,235)
Enlisted (27,850)
Stormtroopers (9,700)

It seems to me the GE is significantly larger than 'a few million soldiers'.

That's only a couple hundred million Stormtroopers total at full complement, still miniscule by the IG's quadrillions. And only 750,000 AT-ATs at full complement, which isn't bad, but consider that every Forge World has an entire Titan Legion, and the sheer number of Forge Worlds in the Imperium.

The "3 million" value is the most commonly cited one, and I believe is derived from the prequel films, which quoted the total strength of the Grand Army of the Republic.

It's probably already been mentioned, but the Empire has extremely quick and reliable hyperspace travel. That alone is worth a great deal.

 McNinja wrote:
It's probably already been mentioned, but the Empire has extremely quick and reliable hyperspace travel. That alone is worth a great deal.

Hyperspace is reliable, but its also very limited. You cannot jump just anywhere. You have to travel along predefined routes, and you have to have Hyperspace routes actually heading to your destination. There are many areas in the SW galaxy where Hyperspace does not exist, or its uncharted, or its so tangled up in knots that you just hop out where you started. Its sort of analogous to the Webway, it is fast and safe, but only if you know your route and have a map. It doesn't go everywhere and if you don't have charts you are jumping blind.

Really, Star Wars Hyperspace travel is only reliable because they've spent thousands and thousands of years mapping out the existing routes. Mapping new routes would take them a huge amount of time, and lots of lives and lost ships.

The Imperium has more warships than that defending Terra alone.

Citation needed.

It is unlikely that the Imperium has 25,000 capital-class vessels in all of space. Sector battle-groups tend to have 5-10 such vessels, and there's a limited number of sectors to consider.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Nope, no shielding on AT-ATs. They just have relatively thick armor, for Star Wars anyway.

Their design is completely impractical. They're slow, cannot turn even remotely fast, their cockpit is completely exposed, and their weaponry can only fire forward.

Even the worst maneuverability numbers for 40k Titans are far superior to an AT-AT. They can at least turn quickly and have weapons that can fire in every direction.

Depends on what that design is meant to do. I presume the number one priority on nearly every Imperial design is intimidation. There are certainly better ship layouts than a wedge for a Star Destroyer...a perfect sphere would give weapon points FAR better LOS, your shielding would be more effective, etc. But a big ball isn't intimidating.

As far at the AT-AT goes, yes, you have speed (what is it, 60+ kph?) instead of manueverability. But, the speed does give you something, the ability to charge faster than weak units can retreat, and the ability to back up and open the range against better CC units. It can also shoot accurately at full speed with Str D main guns and Str ? secondary guns. It has enough armor to ignore probably anything but Str D itself over most of the hull (neck joint is a weak point).

Personally, I think they would deal with 40k-esque walkers by advancing in formation; so even if an enemy vehicle/squad/etc got "inside" the lead AT-AT, the AT-AT on it's rear flank could still engage those targets. Use classic cavalry formations. 4 AT-ATs arranged in a diamond. Smaller, more manueverable vehicles (AT-STs) to the far flanks and rear.

The tactic to defeat an AT-AT formation would be to target the rear/flank AT-ATs first, which would allow the Stompas/Warhounds/Dreds/etc to take the initial casualties on the charge, close with the front line and use multimeltas/Str D/etc.

jwr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Nope, no shielding on AT-ATs. They just have relatively thick armor, for Star Wars anyway.

Their design is completely impractical. They're slow, cannot turn even remotely fast, their cockpit is completely exposed, and their weaponry can only fire forward.

Even the worst maneuverability numbers for 40k Titans are far superior to an AT-AT. They can at least turn quickly and have weapons that can fire in every direction.

Depends on what that design is meant to do. I presume the number one priority on nearly every Imperial design is intimidation. There are certainly better ship layouts than a wedge for a Star Destroyer...a perfect sphere would give weapon points FAR better LOS, your shielding would be more effective, etc. But a big ball isn't intimidating.

That's no moon, it's not even an intimidating space station

For all the talk of Titans vs AT-ATs... I find it somewhat amusing that nobody brought up the following points:

1. Logistical issues such as deployment. I for one have no idea how Titans are actually deployed. If you read any of the fluff on Titans in general, they all describe how the Titans are +big +armored +dakka, but no comments on how the stupid things are transported from place to place. It goes without saying that because they are +big +armored they need dedicated orbital lift vehicles to deploy, since I'm pretty sure that IoM ships aren't atmospheric travel capable. On the other hand, Star Destroyer class ships have been shown to be atmospheric capable (Acclamator and Venator from Ep2-3)

2. Everything from the #1 (+1big +armored +dakka +quantity) is meaningless if you can't achieve space superiority.

3. One advantage that IoM has over the Galactic Empire is their doctrine of PURGE THE XENOS. There will be no discussion, no hesitation, go straight to EXTERMINATUS, proceed to next system - so I think the deployment of ground troops isn't even really a factor. I have a feeling that the Empire might want to capture facilities intact if possible.

 keezus wrote:
For all the talk of Titans vs AT-ATs... I find it somewhat amusing that nobody brought up the following points:

1. Logistical issues such as deployment. I for one have no idea how Titans are actually deployed. If you read any of the fluff on Titans in general, they all describe how the Titans are +big +armored +dakka, but no comments on how the stupid things are transported from place to place. It goes without saying that because they are +big +armored they need dedicated orbital lift vehicles to deploy, since I'm pretty sure that IoM ships aren't atmospheric travel capable. On the other hand, Star Destroyer class ships have been shown to be atmospheric capable (Acclamator and Venator from Ep2-3)

2. Everything from the #1 (+1big +armored +dakka +quantity) is meaningless if you can't achieve space superiority.

3. One advantage that IoM has over the Galactic Empire is their doctrine of PURGE THE XENOS. There will be no discussion, no hesitation, go straight to EXTERMINATUS, proceed to next system - so I think the deployment of ground troops isn't even really a factor. I have a feeling that the Empire might want to capture facilities intact if possible.

Some PSI-Titans can teleport to the surface apparently - I think it was mentioned again in one of the Knight Codexes.............. they usually enter the atmosphere on vast conveyors - the fluff seems to vary if these are just transports or the really big Adeptus Mechanicus battle barge equivalents.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given that the Galactic Empire's army only numbered a few million soldiers total, at most, I don't think AT-ATs outnumber Titans. Not even close.

And numbers don't matter much when they wouldn't do jack squat to any Titan. They're outmaneuvered and outgunned.

Why would the Empire deploy AT-ATs against larger Titans they couldn't out-fight, when they could just use TIE bombers or the orbiting Star Destroyer that dropped off the AT-ATs?

 Psienesis wrote:

The Imperium has more warships than that defending Terra alone.

Citation needed.

It is unlikely that the Imperium has 25,000 capital-class vessels in all of space. Sector battle-groups tend to have 5-10 such vessels, and there's a limited number of sectors to consider.

Depends on who is writing it - the Space Wolves alone have something like 200-300 warships........... and that's with only about 1500-2000 marines and not being a Space borne Chapter.....

A blast from a TIE fighter main gun didn't even destroy R2D2 beyond repair, he was fixed up in time for the ceremony in the first movie.

 MeanAss_Demasoni wrote:
A blast from a TIE fighter main gun didn't even destroy R2D2 beyond repair, he was fixed up in time for the ceremony in the first movie.

Yeah, the same TIE main gun that can blow apart an X-wing or Y-wing hitting the unshielded rear just pops a few circuits on R2D2. The same blaster pistol that insta-kills Greedo only scorches Luke's leather glove. The same blaster rifles that can blast chunks out of concrete only singes Leia's shoulder.

Apparently the heroes have an Armor Save of 10 and 2+ Invul, or the midichlorians in charge of the force depower any blaster shots headed toward our intrepid heroes.

Well, except for C3PO. Not sure how he missed out, but he walked into the wrong room and got all 4 limbs and head seperated from his torso by a blast.

jwr wrote:

 MeanAss_Demasoni wrote:
A blast from a TIE fighter main gun didn't even destroy R2D2 beyond repair, he was fixed up in time for the ceremony in the first movie.

Yeah, the same TIE main gun that can blow apart an X-wing or Y-wing hitting the unshielded rear just pops a few circuits on R2D2. The same blaster pistol that insta-kills Greedo only scorches Luke's leather glove. The same blaster rifles that can blast chunks out of concrete only singes Leia's shoulder.

Apparently the heroes have an Armor Save of 10 and 2+ Invul, or the midichlorians in charge of the force depower any blaster shots headed toward our intrepid heroes.

Well, except for C3PO. Not sure how he missed out, but he walked into the wrong room and got all 4 limbs and head seperated from his torso by a blast.

Plot shields care nothing for reality - they are the best kind of shields

The empire and rebel combined star fighter fleets would be an absolute nightmare for the imperiums titans, and I think numbers alone, the star wars universe is going to easily have air superiority, let alone a good argument that the star wars universe fighters are better than anything the imperium has, the only issue they would have is on the ground air defences which I admit can be formidable....

Star wars capital ships wouldn't hold up to the imperious though, so keeping those star fighters armed, maintained and fuelled is going to be difficult, though hyperspace is infinitely more reliable and faster to initialise than warp travel, so ambushes are going to be back in favour of the star wars universe. An imperium armada turns up on their scanners and they run away, quite fast and quite easily.

It would be an interesting war, but there is absolutely no contest on the ground, the imperium would control all planetary targets in little to no time at all and hold them with ease. The only chance the star wars universe army would have would be to control space superiority and starve the imperium of resources.

 Grey Templar wrote:
25,000 Capital ships is also a painfully low number. The Imperium has more warships than that defending Terra alone.

Yeah seriously, only 25000 capital ships IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY is pretty pitifully small. The galaxy is HUGE. That's not even a single capital ship per million worlds.

 Melissia wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
25,000 Capital ships is also a painfully low number. The Imperium has more warships than that defending Terra alone.

Yeah seriously, only 25000 capital ships IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY is pretty pitifully small. The galaxy is HUGE. That's not even a single capital ship per million worlds.

I don't know how many worlds in Star Wars are inhabited, but since defending uninhabited worlds seems pretty pointless, so 25 000 ships might be plenty. -edit- looks like they have a cap-ship for every 2 star systems. Sector <= 50 inhabited systems, sector fleet ~ 24 cap warships, 1600 support ships.

Really, I think any space engagement depends on logistics, ability to concentrate power and communications. Logistics is always an issue IMHO for the IoM since the plot of the GRIMDARK FUTURE WHERE THERE IS ONLY WAR, never talks in detail about supply lines, food and water for the INNUMERABLE SOLDIERS OF THE IMPERIUM. They just concentrate on the ++dakka and the +++men the Imperium has at its disposal... never much talk on how much ammo is needed for the ++dakka and food/water/supplies for the +++men. As ridiculous as it sounds, attrition is also an issue for the IoM should they not win an engagement right away, since the Adeptus Mechanicus is pretty much restricted to burning incense and singing Kumbaya to the machine spirits when faced with any catastrophic damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: According to Warhammer Wikia: You're looking at sector level fleet consisting of ~50-75 capital ships w/ support craft for every 8 million cubic light years of space. Sub-sector being 2-8 systems 10 light radius space (i.e. around 525 cubic light years of space). This would suggest that Star Wars might have substantively heavier fleet density in the populated worlds, and the IoM might have substantively SLOWER reaction time due to the vastness of each sector.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
-edit 2: Even the Armageddon Battlefleet suggests that it not number above 75 capital ships and it is defending one the most heavily defended zones in the Imperium.

Well, according to Wookiepedia,

The Galactic Empire's territory at its peak consisted of some one and a half million member and conquered worlds, as well as sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates and puppet states spread throughout the entire galaxy, stretching from the borders of the Deep Core to at least Wild Space.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Empire

So 1.5 million worlds directly controlled and then another 69 million ancillary worlds under indirect control.

That means there is approximately 1 Star Destroyer for every 2,820 planets.

If we toss those under indirect control that means each Star Destroyer only needs to control 60 planets.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, according to Wookiepedia,

The Galactic Empire's territory at its peak consisted of some one and a half million member and conquered worlds, as well as sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates and puppet states spread throughout the entire galaxy, stretching from the borders of the Deep Core to at least Wild Space.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Empire

So 1.5 million worlds directly controlled and then another 69 million ancillary worlds under indirect control.

That means there is approximately 1 Star Destroyer for every 2,820 planets.

If we toss those under indirect control that means each Star Destroyer only needs to control 60 planets.

Good info to know!

Using 40k's numbers: Assuming a conservative 2 inhabited worlds per system, and use the maximum of 8 systems per subsector, we have 16 worlds / subsector. A sector is 8 million cubic light years containing15238 subsectors, for 243809 worlds. At max fleet size, you have one cruiser/battlecruiser for every 3250 worlds. Well... so much for the romanticized ideas of fleet density of thousands of warships.

This is only distribution though... in 40k - there's fething 8 segmentums, each containing (Emperor knows how) many sectors...

Looks like based on fleet distribution, you would have the sector fleets separated into subgroups of 1-3 capital ships with escorts / support craft scattered in the hub zones available for redeployment. Realistically, first response in any invasion situation would be one of those sub-groups, if not an even smaller squadron of patrol craft / frigates. IMHO, first contact would likely involve an overwhelming curb-stomp by the attackers just through concentration of strength alone. Both Star Wars and 40k planets of strategic value seem to use a mix of orbital and ground based defensive weaponry (moreso in 40k) and large scale shielding for protection.

Based on the progress of the Tyranid Fleets and the Yuuzhan Vong in Star Wars - the sheer size of the galaxy allows for significant maneuvering space to retreat and regroup. With regards to communications and fleet organization, and somewhat denser fleet distribution (ergo, quicker response times), I think the Empire has moderate advantage in logistics, and 40k has a moderate advantage in firepower.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The empire and rebel combined star fighter fleets would be an absolute nightmare for the imperiums titans, and I think numbers alone, the star wars universe is going to easily have air superiority, let alone a good argument that the star wars universe fighters are better than anything the imperium has, the only issue they would have is on the ground air defences which I admit can be formidable....

Star wars capital ships wouldn't hold up to the imperious though, so keeping those star fighters armed, maintained and fuelled is going to be difficult, though hyperspace is infinitely more reliable and faster to initialise than warp travel, so ambushes are going to be back in favour of the star wars universe. An imperium armada turns up on their scanners and they run away, quite fast and quite easily.

It would be an interesting war, but there is absolutely no contest on the ground, the imperium would control all planetary targets in little to no time at all and hold them with ease. The only chance the star wars universe army would have would be to control space superiority and starve the imperium of resources.

Why would it be no contest on the ground?

Once we accept that due to the logistics of hyperspace versus warp travel the Empire can mass quickly,giving them a clear advantage at decisive points, we know that orbit will be controlled by the Empire.

Since orbit is controlled by the Empire, they will control where or even if dropships can deploy. The can bombard fixed positions (the largest titans, gun emplacements, etc) with relative impunity.

Given that, we now know that it's not just an Astartes chapter and a few regiments of Militarium against stormtroopers and AT-ATs...it's the stormtroopers and AT-ATs backed up with bombers...bombers which are designed to take out enemy capital ships, space stations, etc. Since the storms and AT-ATs can be picked up and re-dropped as required, they will be the ones dictating when and where ground battles take place. If the Imperium chooses good ground, masses and fortifies it, it gets bombarded from orbit. If they stay in small detachments spread out, the Empire can drop superior forces (since they control orbit).

In other words, the Astartes will have their own tactics being used against them. They can't hop in Thunderhawks and return to orbit to be drop-podded to decisive points, and they can't mass for a heroic stand.

In the weeks or months it will take the Imperium to send reinforcements the battle will be decided, and when they do show up they will drop out of warp into a system which the Empire mined on it's way out.

The marines haven't changed tactics in LITERALLY 10,000 years. I find it hard to believe that they can beat anyone. I don't care what the stupid novels say. The rule of cool does not make for effective fighting forces.

Most of you have probably thought about this a lot already, but allow me to illustrate how unpracitcal and absurd things are in all but the most grounded sci-fi.

In both universes ships have the firepower to obliterate entire armies. So why don't they? Why is there even ground fighting at all except to mop up the enemy? Because a handful of anti-ship guns, which would pale in firepower compared to an enemy ship, keep them at bay? No, that doesn't add up. Really, it's because it's cool to punch a carnifex in the face with a high tech fist, even though you could blow it up from orbit from the safety of a couch. Because it would be boring if the foot soldiers were just there to mop up. And because there'd be no exciting battle reports in white dwarf then.

Again why would titans or any large war machine be of prominent value when those ships should be able to turn them to piles of molten slag at the flick of a button? Answer -because big war machines are cool and because GW and Lucas Arts decided that ships shouldn't dominate them.

Why are particular weapons shown to be inconsistent in their power throughout various screen and book depictions? Because it's artistic licence and because the creator's put less thought into it than the folks analysing it on this thread.

Why do the same creators give figures and facts about these weapons that clearly contradict what we see and read? Because they make things up.

Which universe wins in an all out war? Whichever's creator is writing the story I imagine.

So It's all a load of bollox. Entertaining, detailed, but completely absurd. As much as it can be fun to discuss a Star Destroyer and a strike cruiser mashing it out, I believe it's a waste of time getting into technicalities.

Season's Greetings

Chimp

Alarak in SCII: LotV even questions why the protoss didn't nuke all the Zerg from orbit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Most of you have probably thought about this a lot already, but allow me to illustrate how unpracitcal and absurd things are in all but the most grounded sci-fi.

In both universes ships have the firepower to obliterate entire armies. So why don't they? Why is there even ground fighting at all except to mop up the enemy? Becasue a handful of anti-ship guns, which would pale in firepower compared to an enemy ship, keep them at bay? No, that doesn't add up. Really, it's because it's cool to punch a carnifex in the face with a high tech fist, even though you could blow it up from orbit from the safety of his couch. Because it would be boring if the foot soldiers were just there to mop up. And because there'd be no exciting battle reports in white dwarf then.

Again why would titans or any large war machine be of prominent value when those ships should be able to turn them to piles of molten slag at the flick of a button? Answer -because big war machines are cool and because GW and Lucas Arts decided that ships shou;dn't dominate them.

Why are particular weapons shown to be inconsistent in their power throughout various screen and book depictions. Because it's artistic licence and because the creator's didn't put too much thought into it.

Why do the same creators give figures and facts about these weapons that clearly contradict what we see and read. Because they make things up.

Which universe wins in an all out war? Whichever's creator is writing the story I imagine.

So It's all a load of bollox. Entertaining, detailed, but completely absurd. As much as it can be fun to discuss a Star Destroyer and a strike cruiser mashing it out, I believe it's a waste of time getting into technicalities.

Season's Greetings

Chimp

Or we can say the Shadows won despite not being a choice. Because they are that badass.

 keezus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, according to Wookiepedia,

The Galactic Empire's territory at its peak consisted of some one and a half million member and conquered worlds, as well as sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates and puppet states spread throughout the entire galaxy, stretching from the borders of the Deep Core to at least Wild Space.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Empire

So 1.5 million worlds directly controlled and then another 69 million ancillary worlds under indirect control.

That means there is approximately 1 Star Destroyer for every 2,820 planets.

If we toss those under indirect control that means each Star Destroyer only needs to control 60 planets.

Good info to know!

Using 40k's numbers: Assuming a conservative 2 inhabited worlds per system, and use the maximum of 8 systems per subsector, we have 16 worlds / subsector. A sector is 8 million cubic light years containing15238 subsectors, for 243809 worlds. At max fleet size, you have one cruiser/battlecruiser for every 3250 worlds. Well... so much for the romanticized ideas of fleet density of thousands of warships.

This is only distribution though... in 40k - there's fething 8 segmentums, each containing (Emperor knows how) many sectors...

Looks like based on fleet distribution, you would have the sector fleets separated into subgroups of 1-3 capital ships with escorts / support craft scattered in the hub zones available for redeployment. Realistically, first response in any invasion situation would be one of those sub-groups, if not an even smaller squadron of patrol craft / frigates. IMHO, first contact would likely involve an overwhelming curb-stomp by the attackers just through concentration of strength alone. Both Star Wars and 40k planets of strategic value seem to use a mix of orbital and ground based defensive weaponry (moreso in 40k) and large scale shielding for protection.

Based on the progress of the Tyranid Fleets and the Yuuzhan Vong in Star Wars - the sheer size of the galaxy allows for significant maneuvering space to retreat and regroup. With regards to communications and fleet organization, and somewhat denser fleet distribution (ergo, quicker response times), I think the Empire has moderate advantage in logistics, and 40k has a moderate advantage in firepower.

At best, 40k is going to have an average of 1 inhabited world per system.

Sectors are built based on a set measurement of space. Each sector is a cube approximately 200 lightyears x 200 lightyears.

We don't have any concrete numbers for 40k ship numbers, but each Battlefleet is said to consist of between 50 and 75 ships on average. And each protects a Sector.

The Milky Way is approximately 120,000 light years in diameter. Which means you could, at maximum density, be 600 sectors wide and 600 sectors deep. or 360 thousand sectors.

Now the Imperium doesn't control the entire galaxy or have it all divided into sectors. But given this map http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Segmentum. They do have a good chunk of it mapped out.

So lets assume the Imperium has only 1/4 the possible sectors you could fit in the galaxy. 90 thousand sectors, protected by 90 thousand battlefleets.

90 thousand battlefleets, at 50-75 ships each(on average) means the Imperium has between 4.5 and 6.75 million ships total.

If the ratio of escorts to cruisers to battleships is 1/2 to 1/3 to 1/6, that means that at lowest estimations the Imperium has 2.25 million Escorts, 1.5 million cruisers, and 750,000 Battleships.

The Imperium doesn't even have a quarter of the galaxy. It has a million worlds out of potentially-billions (there's 100 billion stars in the Milky Way).