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 Peregrine wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
If hyperdrives are that fast, how did Luke manage to go through enough Jedi training on Dagobah to go from "in danger of killing himself switching his saber on" to "can last ten minutes duelling the greatest swordsman since Mace Windu" in the time it took the Falcon to get from the asteroid field to Bespin?

Remember the whole "our hyperdrive isn't working" thing? It was kind of a major plot point.

Hence going to Bespin. It was close enough for subluminal speeds, and Han was friends with the guy in charge.

 Grey Templar wrote:

jwr wrote:

Same with planet destroying weapons. Sure, everyone has them. Only one, though, can move them from system to system in a matter of hours versus months. So, sure. over a year-long war the Empire will lose a few planets. The IoM will lose hundreds. In a year. I grant the 40K world is dark, and worlds, chapters, etc are lost regularly, but the IoM isn't losing a significant planet (like a forge world, Chapter homeworld, etc) every day.

Wrong. The Death Star destroys a few worlds before a huge Imperial fleet shows up and destroys it. Its huge and cumbersome, it would get destroyed very quickly and the Empire could never recover from a loss like that.

Except they did? They were half-finished (and had full functionality) of a second Death Star within a decade of the first one being blown up. That fully-functional battlestation would be wiping battle-barges and Gothic-class cruisers out of the sky like bugs from a windshield, because when a 40k capital ship explodes, it tends to damage (or destroy) other ships near it when its plasma reactor and/or Warp Drive blows.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

jwr wrote:

Same with planet destroying weapons. Sure, everyone has them. Only one, though, can move them from system to system in a matter of hours versus months. So, sure. over a year-long war the Empire will lose a few planets. The IoM will lose hundreds. In a year. I grant the 40K world is dark, and worlds, chapters, etc are lost regularly, but the IoM isn't losing a significant planet (like a forge world, Chapter homeworld, etc) every day.

Wrong. The Death Star destroys a few worlds before a huge Imperial fleet shows up and destroys it. Its huge and cumbersome, it would get destroyed very quickly and the Empire could never recover from a loss like that.

Except they did? They were half-finished (and had full functionality) of a second Death Star within a decade of the first one being blown up. That fully-functional battlestation would be wiping battle-barges and Gothic-class cruisers out of the sky like bugs from a windshield, because when a 40k capital ship explodes, it tends to damage (or destroy) other ships near it when its plasma reactor and/or Warp Drive blows.

Not even a decade. Return of the Jedi is 4 years after A New Hope.

 Psienesis wrote:


Except they did? They were half-finished (and had full functionality) of a second Death Star within a decade of the first one being blown up. That fully-functional battlestation would be wiping battle-barges and Gothic-class cruisers out of the sky like bugs from a windshield, because when a 40k capital ship explodes, it tends to damage (or destroy) other ships near it when its plasma reactor and/or Warp Drive blows.

I suppose I should clarify they'd never recover while also engaged in total war along the entirety of their border. They could recover if they were only fighting a small disparate force of rebels who are little more than an annoyance in the grand scheme of things, not another galaxy spanning empire which horrendously outnumbers them in both men and material.

If the Empire manages to make a 40k ship explode that means whatever fleet they had engaged with that ship also gets annhilated. The Star Wars ships will be at danger close ranges due to the pathetic ranges of their weaponry if that is the case. Meaning their ships have zero chance of surviving such an event. And the Imperium can afford to lose ships, Star Wars cannot.

Or better yet, we'll get to find out what happens to a Force User when they get thrown in to the Warp, if one of those ships detonates its warp engines in a self-sacrifice maneuver.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I suppose I should clarify they'd never recover while also engaged in total war along the entirety of their border. They could recover if they were only fighting a small disparate force of rebels who are little more than an annoyance in the grand scheme of things, not another galaxy spanning empire which horrendously outnumbers them in both men and material.

With respect. You are assuming that the IoM has sufficient coordination and planning to simultaneously assault the entirety of the Empire's galactic border. There are a number of prior posts in this thread that talk about how much space is actually empty and the enormous distances we are talking about. Both sides have the capability to trade territory for time, and IMHO winning the engagement relies entirely on force concentration, communications and logistics. The Empire definitely has the stronger reconnaissance arm. Its access to small hypderdrive equipped craft and potentially legions of probe droids should, in theory let it map enemy territory and identify key worlds in a way that the IoM can not match.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If the Empire manages to make a 40k ship explode that means whatever fleet they had engaged with that ship also gets annhilated. The Star Wars ships will be at danger close ranges due to the pathetic ranges of their weaponry if that is the case. Meaning their ships have zero chance of surviving such an event. And the Imperium can afford to lose ships, Star Wars cannot.

I am interested to better understand the lore on which you base this assertion. What is the expected yield of a reactor detonation? What's the damage radius? On what basis do you make the claim that the reactor overload will automatically destroy all enemy ships within the engagement zone? Does this reactor overload also destroy all friendly ships? Is the difference in durability 10x? 100x? 1000x+?

I believe the assertion that the Imperium can afford to lose ships is false. Its been oft stated that battlecruiser class ships are priceless and depending on pattern, may be impossible to replace. Example: The Apocalypse-class Battleship is a rare but extremely powerful Battleship currently in service to the Imperial Navy. The Apocalypse-class is no longer produced at Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World shipyards due to the aging design and lost technical specifications over the millennia. The vessels now in service with the Imperial Navy have either been in service since they were built or were recovered as Space Hulks and retrofitted back into working order so as to continue the fight for the Imperium. The main issue with the IoM is that production is entirely tied to specific Forgeworlds due to the specialized facilities required. While major facilities are needed in Star Wars as well, they are not nearly so restrictive.

-edited for grammar and spelling-

believe the assertion that the Imperium can afford to lose ships is false. Its been oft stated that battlecruiser class ships are priceless and depending on pattern, may be impossible to replace. Example: The Apocalypse-class Battleship is a rare but extremely powerful Battleship currently in service to the Imperial Navy. The Apocalypse-class is no longer produced at Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World shipyards due to the aging design and lost technical specifications over the millennia. The vessels now in service with the Imperial Navy have either been in service since they were built or were recovered as Space Hulks and retrofitted back into working order so as to continue the fight for the Imperium. The main issue with the IoM is that production is entirely tied to specific Forgeworlds due to the specialized facilities required. While major facilities are needed in Star Wars as well, they are not nearly so restrictive.

Specific classes of vessel are no longer produced - either becuase they can't or won't - some classes are apparently inherently much easier to be corrupted.

They can build starships in quite a few places - including Forgeworlds.

I'd love to see a proper ground /space battle with roughly even forces- back in the day we heve played a few BFG games with Trek and Star Wars fleet versus various 40k fleets - greta fun

Plus there are the 40k Star Wars Codexes out there

 Psienesis wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

jwr wrote:

Same with planet destroying weapons. Sure, everyone has them. Only one, though, can move them from system to system in a matter of hours versus months. So, sure. over a year-long war the Empire will lose a few planets. The IoM will lose hundreds. In a year. I grant the 40K world is dark, and worlds, chapters, etc are lost regularly, but the IoM isn't losing a significant planet (like a forge world, Chapter homeworld, etc) every day.

Wrong. The Death Star destroys a few worlds before a huge Imperial fleet shows up and destroys it. Its huge and cumbersome, it would get destroyed very quickly and the Empire could never recover from a loss like that.

Except they did? They were half-finished (and had full functionality) of a second Death Star within a decade of the first one being blown up. That fully-functional battlestation would be wiping battle-barges and Gothic-class cruisers out of the sky like bugs from a windshield, because when a 40k capital ship explodes, it tends to damage (or destroy) other ships near it when its plasma reactor and/or Warp Drive blows.

Not just that, it wasn't that long. I expect the Empire follows the rule of government procurement for military systems "why buy just one once your R&D is a sunk cost?" Deathstar 1 was a test bed. Hence, the Emporer himself not aboard. He was only at Deathstar 2 to help turn Luke. It took the Rebellion years to find Deathstar 2. Why wouldn't they have more?

jwr wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

jwr wrote:

Same with planet destroying weapons. Sure, everyone has them. Only one, though, can move them from system to system in a matter of hours versus months. So, sure. over a year-long war the Empire will lose a few planets. The IoM will lose hundreds. In a year. I grant the 40K world is dark, and worlds, chapters, etc are lost regularly, but the IoM isn't losing a significant planet (like a forge world, Chapter homeworld, etc) every day.

Wrong. The Death Star destroys a few worlds before a huge Imperial fleet shows up and destroys it. Its huge and cumbersome, it would get destroyed very quickly and the Empire could never recover from a loss like that.

Except they did? They were half-finished (and had full functionality) of a second Death Star within a decade of the first one being blown up. That fully-functional battlestation would be wiping battle-barges and Gothic-class cruisers out of the sky like bugs from a windshield, because when a 40k capital ship explodes, it tends to damage (or destroy) other ships near it when its plasma reactor and/or Warp Drive blows.

Not just that, it wasn't that long. I expect the Empire follows the rule of government procurement for military systems "why buy just one once your R&D is a sunk cost?" Deathstar 1 was a test bed. Hence, the Emporer himself not aboard. He was only at Deathstar 2 to help turn Luke. It took the Rebellion years to find Deathstar 2. Why wouldn't they have more?

Because it was a one off terror weapon with a massive flaw that they then had to re build from scratch......

Can it effectively pivot at all? Otherwise if you know its operational you maneuverer so the super laser is not aimed at you - the rebel fleet did not know it was working, although jumping onto the other side of the gun might have been a better move and raised suspicions when they pivoted it to face you.......

The entire resources of the Galatic Empire at peace built one very ten years or so - but it was never designed to be a war machine but a symbolic instrument of terror. The money and resources would be better spent in wartime on fleets - far more flexible and less vulnerable.

@Morden: The other side of the gun was a Star Destroyer fleet and Endor, so that might not have worked out so well.

 keezus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I suppose I should clarify they'd never recover while also engaged in total war along the entirety of their border. They could recover if they were only fighting a small disparate force of rebels who are little more than an annoyance in the grand scheme of things, not another galaxy spanning empire which horrendously outnumbers them in both men and material.

With respect. You are assuming that the IoM has sufficient coordination and planning to simultaneously assault the entirety of the Empire's galactic border. There are a number of prior posts in this thread that talk about how much space is actually empty and the enormous distances we are talking about. Both sides have the capability to trade territory for time, and IMHO winning the engagement relies entirely on force concentration, communications and logistics. The Empire definitely has the stronger reconnaissance arm. Its access to small hypderdrive equipped craft and potentially legions of probe droids should, in theory let it map enemy territory and identify key worlds in a way that the IoM can not match.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If the Empire manages to make a 40k ship explode that means whatever fleet they had engaged with that ship also gets annhilated. The Star Wars ships will be at danger close ranges due to the pathetic ranges of their weaponry if that is the case. Meaning their ships have zero chance of surviving such an event. And the Imperium can afford to lose ships, Star Wars cannot.

I am interested to better understand the lore on which you base this assertion. What is the expected yield of a reactor detonation? What's the damage radius? On what basis do you make the claim that the reactor overload will automatically destroy all enemy ships within the engagement zone? Does this reactor overload also destroy all friendly ships? Is the difference in durability 10x? 100x? 1000x+?

I believe the assertion that the Imperium can afford to lose ships is false. Its been oft stated that battlecruiser class ships are priceless and depending on pattern, may be impossible to replace. Example: The Apocalypse-class Battleship is a rare but extremely powerful Battleship currently in service to the Imperial Navy. The Apocalypse-class is no longer produced at Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World shipyards due to the aging design and lost technical specifications over the millennia. The vessels now in service with the Imperial Navy have either been in service since they were built or were recovered as Space Hulks and retrofitted back into working order so as to continue the fight for the Imperium. The main issue with the IoM is that production is entirely tied to specific Forgeworlds due to the specialized facilities required. While major facilities are needed in Star Wars as well, they are not nearly so restrictive.

-edited for grammar and spelling-

Only specific types of ships are no longer/can no longer be produced. The vast majority of Imperial ship designs can still be produced. I believe all of the ships with the armored prow are newer designs and can thus be replicated with ease.

As I recall, the Empire only has a few worlds which have facilities capable of producing Star Destroyers and other Capitol class warships. Kuat producing the vast majority of the Navy's ships. That is a severe vulnerability, one the Imperium doesn't have as the Imperium has thousands of forge worlds and other planets capable of producing warships(all of which outclass and outgun Star Wars ships)

As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation. This would well encompass the ranges of Star Wars ships. Because in order for them to have blown up a 40k ship, they would have to have been in weapons range(duh). That means their fleet is well inside the blast radius.

 keezus wrote:
@Morden: The other side of the gun was a Star Destroyer fleet and Endor, so that might not have worked out so well.

Well at least they would have found out they were there

I wonder how fast it can pivot without the crew getting dizzy

 Mr Morden wrote:

jwr wrote:

Not just that, it wasn't that long. I expect the Empire follows the rule of government procurement for military systems "why buy just one once your R&D is a sunk cost?" Deathstar 1 was a test bed. Hence, the Emporer himself not aboard. He was only at Deathstar 2 to help turn Luke. It took the Rebellion years to find Deathstar 2. Why wouldn't they have more?

Because it was a one off terror weapon with a massive flaw that they then had to re build from scratch......

Can it effectively pivot at all? Otherwise if you know its operational you maneuverer so the super laser is not aimed at you - the rebel fleet did not know it was working, although jumping onto the other side of the gun might have been a better move and raised suspicions when they pivoted it to face you.......

The entire resources of the Galatic Empire at peace built one very ten years or so - but it was never designed to be a war machine but a symbolic instrument of terror. The money and resources would be better spent in wartime on fleets - far more flexible and less vulnerable.

Huh? If it takes 10 years to build one, the 2nd (after correcting the major flaw) wouldn't be 90% complete in just 4 years.

It would make more sense (and, apart from hero plot armor, the things the Empire did made a lot of sense, especially compared to the stagnation and superstition in the IoM over the last, oh, 10,000 years) if the Empire, once they began construction, to start laying down the keel of Deathstar 2 (and 3, and 4, and 5). The idea of the Deathstars was to keep systems in line. If you're dealing with a million+ systems, it stands to reason to make as many as you can crew. They certainly didn't stop at one SSD.

Maybe there was a reason they didn't jump to the far side of Endor, orbit to the back side of the moon, destroy the shield generator with y-wing fighter-bombers and assault Deathstar 2 from the moon side, with the capital ships using the moon as a screen just in case the deathstar's superlaser is operational. Force DS2 to use its first shot destroying the moon (useless now with the shield generator destroyed). It will take enough time to recharge that your capital ships can adjust. Oh, yeah, I know...George Lucas having creative control, that's why. You have to have bunch of teddy bears wipe out an elite ground force (that even had AT-ATs on the ground, at the site of the shield generator).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:


Only specific types of ships are no longer/can no longer be produced. The vast majority of Imperial ship designs can still be produced. I believe all of the ships with the armored prow are newer designs and can thus be replicated with ease.

As I recall, the Empire only has a few worlds which have facilities capable of producing Star Destroyers and other Capitol class warships. Kuat producing the vast majority of the Navy's ships. That is a severe vulnerability, one the Imperium doesn't have as the Imperium has thousands of forge worlds and other planets capable of producing warships(all of which outclass and outgun Star Wars ships)

As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation. This would well encompass the ranges of Star Wars ships. Because in order for them to have blown up a 40k ship, they would have to have been in weapons range(duh). That means their fleet is well inside the blast radius.

Well, if we get back to "Space Marines versus the Empire", not every chapter has capital warship-building forge worlds. Matter of fact, I'd go out on a limb and say few if any do, as the High Lords need naval superiority as a check against the Adeptus Astartes. So, let's throw capital ship production out the window.

Next, I doubt all Astartes warships outclass and outgun all Imperial warships. There's some room to manuever within 40K fluff, but I doubt an Astartes destroyer or frigate outclasses and outguns a SD. The larger ships do, sure, but not all of them.

Third, when dealing with fleet sizes, let's keep in mind about the maximum size force the Astartes would put together for the Great Crusade against the Empire. Several chapters at most. It's not like all of them are going to abandon centuries-long campaigns agaisnt xenos, heretics and rebels. So, what? Ten chapters? 100? In any event, it won't be all of them. It certainly won't be all of them, plus the entire Imperium. We got to take 40K, warts and all. Cyclonic torpedoes come with a healthy dose of "unwilling to abandon lost causes and ally with other xenos in order to maximize efforts and wipe out Tyranids once and for all". So, it won't be all the chapters. Canon forbids it.

At it's peak, the Empire has 25,000 SDs. Figure 100 chapters on this crusade, each chapter is responsible for 2500 SDs. Yeah, a battle barge outclasses and outguns a SD. It doesn't outgun 1,000 of them.

jwr wrote:
Huh? If it takes 10 years to build one, the 2nd (after correcting the major flaw) wouldn't be 90% complete in just 4 years.

Unless of course during the construction of the first one, Palpatine was still consolidating his power and thus was keeping the movement of mass materials and workers on the downlow. With the second death star Palpatine has fully taken control (hence dissolving the Senate in Episode 4) and there was no need for the secrecy.

It would make more sense (and, apart from hero plot armor, the things the Empire did made a lot of sense, especially compared to the stagnation and superstition in the IoM over the last, oh, 10,000 years) if the Empire, once they began construction, to start laying down the keel of Deathstar 2 (and 3, and 4, and 5). The idea of the Deathstars was to keep systems in line. If you're dealing with a million+ systems, it stands to reason to make as many as you can crew. They certainly didn't stop at one SSD.

Return of the Jedi disagrees. From the title crawl:

"Little does Luke know that the
GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly
begun construction on a new
armored space station even
more powerful than the first
dreaded Death Star."

Maybe there was a reason they didn't jump to the far side of Endor, orbit to the back side of the moon, destroy the shield generator with y-wing fighter-bombers and assault Deathstar 2 from the moon side, with the capital ships using the moon as a screen just in case the deathstar's superlaser is operational.

Yes there was a reason. The Sanctuary moon and Death Star were both protected by a planetary shield. Planetary shields that were the reason the Death Star was designed in the first place, since even the shield the rebels used on Hoth was capable of withstanding the combined fire of 5 ISD and 1 SSD.

You can't keep something like that a secret. Star Wars writers are really, really stupid.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't keep something like that a secret. Star Wars writers are really, really stupid.

How do you figure? Endor is in a relatively remote location. Rebels had no reason to travel in that area. The movies do not show who is doing the actual construction, but the EU says it was Stormtroopers (which is stupid). According to Clerks it would have been contractors (and they would have known the risks, so if they got killed it was their own fault). The hardest thing to hide would have been the material movement.

You answered your own question with the comment about materials. As I said, the Star Wars writers are very stupid.

Martel732 wrote:
You answered your own question with the comment about materials. As I said, the Star Wars writers are very stupid.

And 40K writers are not?

 Happyjew wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You answered your own question with the comment about materials. As I said, the Star Wars writers are very stupid.

And 40K writers are not?

Oh they are awful as well. That's why this comparison is ultimately futile.

Just read that 1; Storm Trooper armour can take everything that isn't .50 cal or higher, and 2; if the armour isn't penetrated, the blast will spread throughout the armour, leaving the soldier severely wounded but not dead. Say a Lasgun is comparable to a normal Blaster, which will kill/wound on a direct hit. This means that a Bolter will rip a Stormtrooper apart. Are there any real estimates of the number of Stormtroopers at the height of the Empire?

Kuat Drive Yards is just one of literally-hundreds of major shipyards in the galaxy. These are yards that produce multiples of capital ships at a time. There are scores of ship-manufacturers in the SW Galaxy that own comparable facilities. Corellia, the planet, is home to dozens of such industries, it is what made them famous.

 Grey Templar wrote:
As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation. This would well encompass the ranges of Star Wars ships. Because in order for them to have blown up a 40k ship, they would have to have been in weapons range(duh). That means their fleet is well inside the blast radius.

Ah. You are referring to a Warp Drive detonation. I believe that the use of this vs the hive fleet at McCragge was done on purpose rather than a side effect of being destroyed. I'm pretty sure that if this happened every time the first warp capable ship was destroyed in a formation, you'd have not much of a fleet left as the warp vortex would murder all friendly ships as well. The other question is how fast the vortex occurs. It may be possible for enemy ships to flee before the vortex has been established.

 Grey Templar wrote:
As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation.

Which then raises the question of how the Tyranids can possibly be a threat if blowing up a warp drive is enough to annihilate a hive fleet. Why do they even bother to fight wars against the Tyranids instead of just flying a ship into the middle of the fleet and hitting the self-destruct button?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation.

Which then raises the question of how the Tyranids can possibly be a threat if blowing up a warp drive is enough to annihilate a hive fleet. Why do they even bother to fight wars against the Tyranids instead of just flying a ship into the middle of the fleet and hitting the self-destruct button?

Because "hitting the self-destruct button" may or may not incur a huge-as-hell Daemon invasion, as well as a slew of Daemonic Possessions.

 dusara217 wrote:
Because "hitting the self-destruct button" may or may not incur a huge-as-hell Daemon invasion, as well as a slew of Daemonic Possessions.

So then how can the Imperium risk having space combat at all? If the likely consequence of having a starship destroyed is a massive demon invasion then it's almost guaranteed that the demonic threat would be worse than whatever the Imperium is trying to fight, and the only sensible thing to do would be to run away. And yet somehow we see space battle after space battle without the Imperium vs. Tau story turning into "everyone tries to survive as reality itself is unmade". So clearly the destruction of a starship opening warp portals or whatever is an incredibly rare event.

 Peregrine wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Because "hitting the self-destruct button" may or may not incur a huge-as-hell Daemon invasion, as well as a slew of Daemonic Possessions.

So then how can the Imperium risk having space combat at all? If the likely consequence of having a starship destroyed is a massive demon invasion then it's almost guaranteed that the demonic threat would be worse than whatever the Imperium is trying to fight, and the only sensible thing to do would be to run away. And yet somehow we see space battle after space battle without the Imperium vs. Tau story turning into "everyone tries to survive as reality itself is unmade". So clearly the destruction of a starship opening warp portals or whatever is an incredibly rare event.

You do realize that Warp Drives don't just up and detonate, correct? It is either the direct result of sabatoge or a final act of a desperate Captain who doesn't want his ship to die in vain. There is a reason that battles ending with detonated Warp Drives make up a solid minority of Void Battles, in 40k.

EDIT: Also, in order for it to incur a Daemon INvasion, there first needs to be a Daemon Army arrayed at the point of detonation. Usually, it just results in more Possessions, however, were it to become common practice, then there would be Daemon Armies lining up at the door every time the Imperial Navy got into a Space Battle. Of course, any Tzeentchian Fateweaver would likely be able to see the potential for such holes in the Warp to occur, and use them accordingly (even without them becoming commonplace), which is why it always bugs me when people use that strategy and nothing bad happens.

 dusara217 wrote:
You do realize that Warp Drives don't just up and detonate, correct? It is either the direct result of sabatoge or a final act of a desperate Captain who doesn't want his ship to die in vain. There is a reason that battles ending with detonated Warp Drives make up a solid minority of Void Battles, in 40k.

Ok then. This is now the end of the "every time a 40k ship is destroyed the warp drive explodes and destroys everything nearby, so Star Wars fleets will be annihilated as soon as they kill a single ship" argument.

 Peregrine wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
You do realize that Warp Drives don't just up and detonate, correct? It is either the direct result of sabatoge or a final act of a desperate Captain who doesn't want his ship to die in vain. There is a reason that battles ending with detonated Warp Drives make up a solid minority of Void Battles, in 40k.

Ok then. This is now the end of the "every time a 40k ship is destroyed the warp drive explodes and destroys everything nearby, so Star Wars fleets will be annihilated as soon as they kill a single ship" argument.

I'm amazed that something like that even became an argument XD

 keezus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation. This would well encompass the ranges of Star Wars ships. Because in order for them to have blown up a 40k ship, they would have to have been in weapons range(duh). That means their fleet is well inside the blast radius.

Ah. You are referring to a Warp Drive detonation. I believe that the use of this vs the hive fleet at McCragge was done on purpose rather than a side effect of being destroyed. I'm pretty sure that if this happened every time the first warp capable ship was destroyed in a formation, you'd have not much of a fleet left as the warp vortex would murder all friendly ships as well. The other question is how fast the vortex occurs. It may be possible for enemy ships to flee before the vortex has been established.

Warp Drives can detonate due to damage the ship sustains. Or they can be deliberately detonated. Either way its not good for anybody in the area.

And even if the warp drive doesn't detonate, the ship's main reactors exploding is still not good for any ships nearby. And the fact its weaker doesn't save Star Wars vessels, they're toast if caught in the blast radius as its still going to temporarily make a sizable area of space like the surface of a star.

This is also why 40k ship formations are quite spread out(unlike Star Wars). They have both larger weapon ranges and they need to maintain safe distances in case reactors explode, though they don't always stay that far away(and a ship with full void shields can still potentially survive). Star Wars space battles all take place at extremely close ranges, and its not just for cinematic visuals. They're going to be basically right next to any ship they manage to explode, close enough to where they'd have zero chance of survival.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jwr wrote:

Well, if we get back to "Space Marines versus the Empire", not every chapter has capital warship-building forge worlds. Matter of fact, I'd go out on a limb and say few if any do, as the High Lords need naval superiority as a check against the Adeptus Astartes. So, let's throw capital ship production out the window.

Next, I doubt all Astartes warships outclass and outgun all Imperial warships. There's some room to manuever within 40K fluff, but I doubt an Astartes destroyer or frigate outclasses and outguns a SD. The larger ships do, sure, but not all of them.

Third, when dealing with fleet sizes, let's keep in mind about the maximum size force the Astartes would put together for the Great Crusade against the Empire. Several chapters at most. It's not like all of them are going to abandon centuries-long campaigns agaisnt xenos, heretics and rebels. So, what? Ten chapters? 100? In any event, it won't be all of them. It certainly won't be all of them, plus the entire Imperium. We got to take 40K, warts and all. Cyclonic torpedoes come with a healthy dose of "unwilling to abandon lost causes and ally with other xenos in order to maximize efforts and wipe out Tyranids once and for all". So, it won't be all the chapters. Canon forbids it.

At it's peak, the Empire has 25,000 SDs. Figure 100 chapters on this crusade, each chapter is responsible for 2500 SDs. Yeah, a battle barge outclasses and outguns a SD. It doesn't outgun 1,000 of them.

If you reread the OP, the situation is not a crusade of space marines vs the entire Empire. its the entire Imperium vs the Galactic empire.

Remember, the Empire was defeated by a few thousand freedom fighters and teddy bears.

 Grey Templar wrote:

jwr wrote:

Well, if we get back to "Space Marines versus the Empire", not every chapter has capital warship-building forge worlds. Matter of fact, I'd go out on a limb and say few if any do, as the High Lords need naval superiority as a check against the Adeptus Astartes. So, let's throw capital ship production out the window.

Next, I doubt all Astartes warships outclass and outgun all Imperial warships. There's some room to manuever within 40K fluff, but I doubt an Astartes destroyer or frigate outclasses and outguns a SD. The larger ships do, sure, but not all of them.

Third, when dealing with fleet sizes, let's keep in mind about the maximum size force the Astartes would put together for the Great Crusade against the Empire. Several chapters at most. It's not like all of them are going to abandon centuries-long campaigns agaisnt xenos, heretics and rebels. So, what? Ten chapters? 100? In any event, it won't be all of them. It certainly won't be all of them, plus the entire Imperium. We got to take 40K, warts and all. Cyclonic torpedoes come with a healthy dose of "unwilling to abandon lost causes and ally with other xenos in order to maximize efforts and wipe out Tyranids once and for all". So, it won't be all the chapters. Canon forbids it.

At it's peak, the Empire has 25,000 SDs. Figure 100 chapters on this crusade, each chapter is responsible for 2500 SDs. Yeah, a battle barge outclasses and outguns a SD. It doesn't outgun 1,000 of them.

If you reread the OP, the situation is not a crusade of space marines vs the entire Empire. its the entire Imperium vs the Galactic empire.

Remember, the Empire was defeated by a few thousand freedom fighters and teddy bears.

Rounds 1-4 were just Astartes, which means by the time the entire Imperium shows up, the Empire would've had time to begin developing new weapons and tactics, which the Imperium will steadfastly refuse to do themselves. There isn't much they would have to do. Hop up the engines in TIE Interceptors so they could catch Thunderhawks in atmospheric flight. Crank out more TIE-As so they have hyperspace capable attack craft to respond to smaller demi-company size actions until the SDs show up. Besides, there is no way in the world the Imperium can keep it together when 999 chapters (since 1 was wiped out in round 4) would keep it together when confronted by an entire galaxy filled with xenos. They would mindlock like a bunch of unsupervised servitors. Then they would blast off in 999 different directions, most of which would be wastes of time. Just like on Hoth. They'll run into that first Wampa, and they'll be scouring the whole planet to wipe them out in the name of the Emporer, and the Empire won't care. Endor's moon. Furry little stone-age squats. The Empire doesn't care. Repeat that hundreds of times. Hundreds of chapters wasting their time exterminating "worthless" (to the Empire) xenos, and with warp versus hyperspace travel times, time is the one thing the IoM doesn't have.

Also, nowhere, not in the canon, fluff, etc was the Empire defeated by the rebels and some teddy bears. The Empire lost their two top leaders, DS2, an SSD and about a dozen SDs. Out of a total fleet of tens of thousands. The whole premise of the 3 sequel movies features the renamed and undefeated Empire.

Even Lucas admitted the whole teddy bear thing was a stretch, but we can even go with the teddys beat about a company of stormtroopers...the rest of the legion was on smoke break with their AT-AT.