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 Talys wrote:
In terms of the AT-AT, this is one of the most ridiculous constructs ever to hit science fiction, because who in their right mind would build a weapons platform like that? You know, when you have technology to make the top platform just float (like jabba's barge), instead of being supported by spindly legs. But it doesn't matter, because they're just THAT awesome

There are a couple of different reasons why making the AT-AT a skimmer would not work.
1. In some environments (such as the Forest Moon of Endor) a large bulky skimmer would not be useful and forced to hover around above the trees instead of just crushing the trees with its feet.
2. In TPM, at the Battle of Naboo, the AATs open fire (ineffectively) against the Gungan shields. At which point the MTTs unload the droids who have no problem walking through. This implies that shields can wreck havoc with skimmers. Otherwise the AATs would have just flown in (or in the case of Hoth the Imps would have sent in TIE Bombers to destroy the shield.

Though I do recall mention of a skimmer version of AT-ATs but can't remember where.

 Talys wrote:
With a lot of this stuff, it's not so much a suspension of reality that you need to enjoy it, but a suspension of logic

I think you hit the nail on the head. 40 is essentially WORLD WAR I... IN SPACE. Even by WWII, stupid crap like trench warfare, tanks without proper suspensions and battleships being the kings of the ocean had become obsolete. The writers basically took WWI era tech, put it in space and then described everything as being the most super awesome, without any thought to what happens when opposing super awesome meets. (i.e. irresistible force vs immovable object). And then there's ORKS, who are essentially super space ramshackle hillbillies, and the only remaining throwback race from the old days of Squats and mohawk Eldar.

There are only two fluff reasons why the IoM engages in land battles... logic-wise. Assaulting Xenos planets, its more like: Wipe out their space assets, proceed to Exterminatus.

1. Invasion Force / Task Force: To root out a xenos/chaos infestation on a world that has STRATEGIC VALUE. IMHO, this would be every world the Imperium holds, though some would be more valuable than others... Forgeworlds typically having STRATEGIC VALUE ABSOLUTE... and must be held at all costs.

2. Planetary Defense Force: To repel alien invaders when the local system fleet is overwhelmed and the Imperial Sector Fleet needs to be mustered to combat them in space. Reaction times can be quite slow, or quite fast, depending on the speed at which the writer requires.

Note: Even in the fluff, the Eldar / Dark Eldar only do surgical strikes. The Tyranids descend on a planet to NOM it, irrespective of whether it has won space, and the Orks just don't know any better.


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 Psienesis wrote:
An AU is an "Astronomical Unit", meaning a unit 1000km across, not... planetary in size, however you arrived at that conclusion. That's not "whole fleet in size", or even remotely close, and reloading a Nova Cannon takes hours (combat turns in BFG are each thirty minutes long "in universe"). Now, if you happen to be on the ship that gets hit by a Nova Cannon, yes, you're more fethed than Fulgrim's latest toy, or if you are within 3AU of that ship, you're also basically fethed, since you're caught in the blast-radius of the cannon (though your ship may survive, just be very heavily damaged) Then again, so was everyone onboard that Mon Cal cruiser that ate the DS2's first shot... which has a much higher rate of fire than a Nova Cannon.

Niggle about the novacannon blast radius:

The Nova Cannon itself is massive; the barrel is the length of all but the largest Imperial vessels. The projectiles have a diameter of at least 50 metres and are fired at close to light speed after being accelerated by gravimetric coils. When the projectile has travelled the predetermined distance, the warhead implodes with a force equivalent to several plasma bombs. This creates a blast zone the size of a small planet, powerful enough to destroy a Light Cruiser in a single hit or cripple even a Battleship.

Here's another part that I find pretty funny:

The primary effect of the Nova Cannon is derived from the explosive force of its projectile, which is produced by an unknown method, though it is presumably a very large thermonuclear fusion warhead. Due to the lethal nature of their warheads, Nova Cannon shells are not armed for a fraction of a second after firing, allowing them to travel many tens of thousands of kilometres through the void before they become truly deadly. For these reasons, a Nova Cannon is only fired from an Imperial warship according to specific rules which do not apply to other naval weapons.

THERMONUCLEAR FUSION WARHEAD?!??? I don't think that the 40k writers understand fusion the way it actually works. If we really boil it down, the laws of physics don't support how the fluff explains weapon works. Fusion is not some sort of infinite energy generator, considering that the projectile is moving at light speed, it would have to be a stupendously powerful explosion to overcome the kinetic potential of even 0.5C. There's a reason why in many other sci-fi universes, they've moved beyond fusion to anti-matter / matter annihilation and zero point energy / artificial singularities for their sci-fi witchcraft.

Mars Pattern Nova Cannon - Though Nova Cannons are quite rare, even by standards of starship construction, the Mars Pattern is the most common construction template. These massive cannons -- hundreds of metres in length -- fire an enormous shell that echoes a traditional explosive warhead, though on a much larger scale. These shells are accelerated to near relativistic velocities, causing an explosion that detonates with more force than dozens of plasma warheads.

Making a shell go fast != super explosion...

Anyhow... it's irrelevant... since they are enabled by super-high-technology unknowable and unfathomable to our (my) pedestrian 21st century brain. All we need to know is that there are many such light speed boom guns.

 Happyjew wrote:

Though I do recall mention of a skimmer version of AT-ATs but can't remember where.

Maybe thinking of the swimmer version that appeared in one of the West End Games supplements?

Cheers

Andrew

 Psienesis wrote:


Forget what dude up there said, there's not "thousands of sectors" in the Imperium with sector fleets at full strength. Many of the Sectors the Imperium lays claim to are devoid of human presence, save for some Feral World with a Planetary Governor residing in a star fortress in orbit, or some half-forgotten Mechanicus facility orbiting a dying star for research purposes and various Inquisitorial black-ops projects. Further, the Imperium just isn't that big; it lays claim to 1 million worlds which is only 1% of all the stars in the galaxy (less any the Necrons have snuffed lately), and we know that the Imperium has *many* systems it claims with multiple worlds orbiting a single star (such as the Cadian system), and multiple multi-planet stars within single Sectors. It's also got sectors so ravaged in recent warfare that their Sector Fleets are down to a couple tug-boats, four laundry-haulers and a conscripted pleasure-yacht (again, Cadia). Feasibly, there's a couple hundred Sectors in the Imperium, with vast reaches of Wild Space between each one.

Last but not least? There's 50 to 75 vessels in a full-strength Sector Battlefleet of all classes of ships. So for every battleship, you've got 2 to 5 escorts, like a Sword-class Frigate, destroyers, massive troop-haulers for the ground troops (no, the IG *cannot* transport its own people from planet to planet), corvettes, so on and so forth. Let's not forget that the Mars-class battle-cruiser is among the largest of vessels the Imperium constructs, with only the Grand Cruiser and Battleship-class being larger classes of vessels (and Grand Cruisers are mostly relics at this point, the class having been phased out in favor of the battle-cruiser). So at the end of the day? Each of those Sector Battlefleets might have 5 ships that are even capable of carrying a Nova Cannon. The rest of those ships in the fleet aren't redundant, they all serve a vital role. Those smaller vessels serve as a screen and escort for the larger vessels, protecting it from enemy craft while they set up to bring the Nova Cannon (or whatever else they pack) to bear, while others are recovery vessels, supply-haulers, Mechanicus repair vessels, and so on. A capital ship without an escort or a fighter-screen is a sitting duck, just asking to get boarded and taken prize.

Alright dude, what is your justification for saying the Imperium only has a couple hundred sectors? A million worlds is small relative to the number of stars, but only a tiny fraction of stars are going to have planets in the first place. Let alone inhabitable planets. Besides, Sectors are a measurement of space, not populated worlds. A sector with 1 inhabited planet is just as large as one with 10. And you do realize that the 50-75 ships is an average across all sectors. So you can multiply that by the estimated number of sectors to get an approximate fleet strength.

Given the sheer size of the galaxy, even if the imperium only controls a tiny fraction they're going to have thousands upon thousands of sectors. Do some math, the galaxy is effing huge.

Since Force Awakened came out its clear the GE wins. A weapon that absorbs a sun to destroy 7 planets at a time....






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Talys wrote:
In terms of the AT-AT, this is one of the most ridiculous constructs ever to hit science fiction, because who in their right mind would build a weapons platform like that? You know, when you have technology to make the top platform just float (like jabba's barge), instead of being supported by spindly legs. But it doesn't matter, because they're just THAT awesome

The Imperial Handbook states:
Walkers have advantages over treaded and repulsorlift vehicles, evidenced by their designation as all terrain. Walkers can react to changing surface conditions and shift their footing as a soldier would. Yet they remain firmly connected to the ground to brace against the recoil of their heavy weapons. Walkers can operate freely when atmospheric conditions-such as those on Jabiim or Drongar-prohibit the operation of repulsorlifts. They are immune to anti-repulsorlift jammers.

A weapon which gets trivially destroyed, just like the previous 2 super weapons. And unlike the Death Stars this one is stationary. Its objectively worse overall.

 Grey Templar wrote:
A weapon which gets trivially destroyed, just like the previous 2 super weapons. And unlike the Death Stars this one is stationary. Its objectively worse overall.

Is there evidence that this superweapon is stationary? There have been planets that are able to travel through both real and hyperspace (Source: The Crystal Star).

 Happyjew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A weapon which gets trivially destroyed, just like the previous 2 super weapons. And unlike the Death Stars this one is stationary. Its objectively worse overall.

Is there evidence that this superweapon is stationary? There have been planets that are able to travel through both real and hyperspace (Source: The Crystal Star).

Also, it doesn't need to move as a result of its unlimited range.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A weapon which gets trivially destroyed, just like the previous 2 super weapons. And unlike the Death Stars this one is stationary. Its objectively worse overall.

Is there evidence that this superweapon is stationary? There have been planets that are able to travel through both real and hyperspace (Source: The Crystal Star).

Also, it doesn't need to move as a result of its unlimited range.

But it does need to move to find fuel to fire the weapon. As portrayed in the film it has 2 uses then you have a really ugly planet.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A weapon which gets trivially destroyed, just like the previous 2 super weapons. And unlike the Death Stars this one is stationary. Its objectively worse overall.

Is there evidence that this superweapon is stationary? There have been planets that are able to travel through both real and hyperspace (Source: The Crystal Star).

We would need evidence that it can move first, otherwise being a planet its kinda stuck where it is. Given the EU is gone(good riddance) we have zero ability to claim a planet could be moved through hyperspace.

Also, it doesn't need to move as a result of its unlimited range.

Is this true? Did they say it had unlimited range? Or is it maybe just capable of hitting half the planets in the galaxy? Or are we going to say its capable of hitting any point in the entire universe?

Still doesn't change the fact its a stationary target. It cannot run, and using it leaves a massive red trail pointing right to it.

Yeah, but if they blast, say Sol? With it, the Imperium's kinda fethed.

Now they'd need knowledge of where to shoot, and the whole warp business, but still.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given the EU is gone(good riddance) we have zero ability to claim a planet could be moved through hyperspace.

EU is not gone. It's just not currently considered canon. However, even then OP said EU was an acceptable source for this discussion.

I'm not claiming it can move. I'm claiming there is the possibility of moving, either under it's own powers, or via external source such as Centerpoint Station.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah, but if they blast, say Sol? With it, the Imperium's kinda fethed.

Now they'd need knowledge of where to shoot, and the whole warp business, but still.

Yeah, with the the astronomiconthingy out of the works, the imperium would be basically fethed.

 Grey Templar wrote:
We would need evidence that it can move first, otherwise being a planet its kinda stuck where it is. Given the EU is gone(good riddance) we have zero ability to claim a planet could be moved through hyperspace.

Is this true? Did they say it had unlimited range? Or is it maybe just capable of hitting half the planets in the galaxy? Or are we going to say its capable of hitting any point in the entire universe?

Still doesn't change the fact its a stationary target. It cannot run, and using it leaves a massive red trail pointing right to it.

Couple of points. 1 yes it has to be able to move, how many suns could a system actually have? The film seemed to imply that it destroyed the sun in order to charge the weapon. 2. On the question of range again yes it seemed to have unlimited range. Certainly it fired from a sunless system into a lit system, and again when firing at the resistance it had extinguished the sun, but the planet was still it by sunlight. 3. Who cares if it was stationary, the force field protecting it could only be penetrated by something that was travelling faster than light. A feat the Imperium cannot do.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
We would need evidence that it can move first, otherwise being a planet its kinda stuck where it is. Given the EU is gone(good riddance) we have zero ability to claim a planet could be moved through hyperspace.

Is this true? Did they say it had unlimited range? Or is it maybe just capable of hitting half the planets in the galaxy? Or are we going to say its capable of hitting any point in the entire universe?

Still doesn't change the fact its a stationary target. It cannot run, and using it leaves a massive red trail pointing right to it.

Couple of points. 1 yes it has to be able to move, how many suns could a system actually have? The film seemed to imply that it destroyed the sun in order to charge the weapon. 2. On the question of range again yes it seemed to have unlimited range. Certainly it fired from a sunless system into a lit system, and again when firing at the resistance it had extinguished the sun, but the planet was still it by sunlight. 3. Who cares if it was stationary, the force field protecting it could only be penetrated by something that was travelling faster than light. A feat the Imperium cannot do.

1) Maybe it can consume a star outside of its current system. They didn't really explain it very well. Or maybe they really only could get 3-4 shots by consuming the nearby stars and were counting on that being enough to win the war.

2) Never did they say what its range was. Its definitely really long, but how long is it?

3) The reason the Falcon did their hyperspace stunt was so they would be undetected, not that they couldn't get through. The X-wings were able to get down to the planet, what they needed was for the shields on the heat modulator thingy to be down so they had a chance of damaging it. The Imperium wouldn't care about that. They kill planets on a daily basis, fairly casually. Though its more likely that they simply land a few million guardsmen on the base and capture it, the Mechanicus would love to get their hands on that. And we know Star Wars computers aren't the most secure things, given any nerf-herder seems to be able to hack military grade computers with only moderate difficulty.

Really the only reason the Imperium doesn't kill planets more often is that planets are valuable. Any of their fleets could wipe out a planet without difficulty, but that would be irresponsible and wasteful.

Response to Grey Templar:

Spoilered for The Force Awakens:



You'll have to give an example of a nerf herder hacking. I don't recall this happening in the canon.

Is there actual evidence it was mobile? I don't remember any.

 keezus wrote:
Response to Grey Templar:

Spoilered for The Force Awakens:

Spoiler:

The X Wings were able to descend on to the planet because the shields were lowered by Captain Phasma. (Why they didn't raise them again is another issue). The Falcon went through the shields because at lightspeed, they fit between the shield refresh. Han explicitly says this... so its a bit of a stretch to for you to say that it was for stealth purposes only.

In addition, the Imperium would be unable to lay siege to Starkiller Base without knowing its location.

Once known, they would have to make a warp jump of indeterminate duration to go there. Given that Starkiller Base is mobile... there is no certainty that the base will be there when the Imperial Strike Force arrives.

You'll have to give an example of a nerf herder hacking. I don't recall this happening in the canon.

No, the shields were the shields protecting the heat sink thingy. The entire planet wasn't encased in shields.

And NO, there is zero evidence that Starkiller base had any kind of mobility. Till someone says it had a hyperdrive it has none and cannot move.

Plus all the other superweapons in the Empire, for example shock drums, mass shadow generators, torpedo spheres, visual electromagnetic intensifires, orbital nightcloaks, superlaser star destroyers, metal crystal phase shifters, omega frosts, world devastators and Death Stars.

 Kojiro wrote:

Spoiler:

 Grey Templar wrote:

No, the shields were the shields protecting the heat sink thingy. The entire planet wasn't encased in shields.

And NO, there is zero evidence that Starkiller base had any kind of mobility. Till someone says it had a hyperdrive it has none and cannot move.

Re shields: Incorrect. The scene clearly shows Phasma dropping a planetary shield. If it was simply the heat sink that was encased there's no need for Hans' entry stunt. They could simply land on the planet and walk in, exactly the way the Empire did on Hoth.


Granted there's no evidence that SKB can move, but it does destroy the sun. It's stretching credulity to believe they'd build a weapon of that scale to fire two shots. It either has to move or it has to be able to draw energy from other stars (both ideas are absurd mind you).

As to the range of the gun, official maps put Hosnian Prime not too far from Corellia, near the core. Starkiller Base is located in the Unknown Regions, on the other side of the core from Hosnian Prime. Which means the demonstrated range- but no necessarily maximum- is at around 55 light years. It is shooting from the edge of the galaxy to a little over half way across it.

There is a contradiction between what that screen shows and what they actually said in the movie.

And lol, only 55 lightyears? Is the Star Wars galaxy only 110 light years across?

I can't say I recall then saying the shield was exclusive to the heart sink. It's actually odd that a military base wouldn't have a planetary shield. Of course it's absurd the shield could be dropped without anyone noticing or taking action but that's about issue. Equally absurd such a critical facility would not have is own independent shield as well but hey.

My bad on the distance- the SW galaxy is about 100,000 light years across, slightly smaller than ours depending on which measurement you use. So it's 55,000 LY. Could be out has longer range but that's what we see.

@Grey Templar: That's a negatory. There is no contradiction. I believe that your recollection may be incorrect. Starkiller Base has a planetary shield. This is easily verifiable using the interwebs.

I think Kojiro is incorrect about the distance... he means 55k light years. The Star Wars galaxy is a 100k lightyear + galaxy per canon.

*ninja'd*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kojiro wrote:
I can't say I recall then saying the shield was exclusive to the heart sink. It's actually odd that a military base wouldn't have a planetary shield. Of course it's absurd the shield could be dropped without anyone noticing or taking action but that's about issue. Equally absurd such a critical facility would not have is own independent shield as well but hey.

My bad on the distance- the SW galaxy is about 100,000 light years across, slightly smaller than ours depending on which measurement you use. So it's 55,000 LY. Could be out has longer range but that's what we see.