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I finally have a decent understanding of plasma, bolters, and melta guns, but what the feth is a grav gun?

I believe it works by manipulating gravitational fields to create a localized area of hyper gravity, like 1000 times normal or something equally extreme. This results in its victims basically being crushed to death under their own weight, and the more massive they are the worse it gets.

If this was done in an oscillating fashion you could rip heavy stuff apart rather quickly, and gooify any living material. It could be equivalent to falling at terminal velocity into cement several times.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I believe it works by manipulating gravitational fields to create a localized area of hyper gravity, like 1000 times normal or something equally extreme. This results in its victims basically being crushed to death under their own weight, and the more massive they are the worse it gets.

If this was done in an oscillating fashion you could rip heavy stuff apart rather quickly, and gooify any living material. It could be equivalent to falling at terminal velocity into cement several times.

That is awesome. So, essentially what Magneto does in UMVC3?

From the rogue trader RPG core book




Automatically Appended Next Post:
This was before the gw's reinvention of the killy non rare grav gun we have now

Sounds like if you just turned up the dial, it would be lethal. going by the RT fluff, the heavier you are the worse this would be, hence why a terminator gets crumpled like a tin can since his armor now weighs 1000s of pounds, while an ork boy would stumble and then get up and dust himself off.

I just looked up the rules for graviton guns in the 2nd edition 40k wargear rules.
It was a rare weapon only to be used by squad engineers and Imperial tech priests.
They work by affecting the local gravity field making objects far heavier or lighter then normal. Its main purpose is a siege weapon that is good at destroying buildings and obstacles.
In the game they are non lethal, but they do immobilize living models for the rest of the game.
Vehicles and buildings do get damaged.

I liked the idea that it focused gravity to the point it was targeting, thus heavy armour would kill the wearer from sheer weight while light armour didn't.

I have no idea what the fluff reason is or could be for them being no longer rare artifacts and why they are suddenly this lethal.

I think they're still rare. Its just they got put back in the codices.

This would stop any living thing from circulating fluids in its body, and sever connective tissue between limbs. I'm all for cool sci-fi stuff, but this weapon would auto kill anything with mass-dependent structure. Blood would instantly fill the feet and depart the head.

Also, where did the mass come from? What would the equal and opposite reaction to this action be? Does the object retain it's size and somehow gain density(impossible without adding constituent material) or do the spaces between its atoms shrink to miniscule size(requiring absurd amounts of energy)?

Honestly is probably one of the most absurd weapons systems in 40k. I suppose you could justify it somehow by saying that it instead creates a magnetic connection between it and the planetary body that simulates gravity by pulling the two objects together with extreme force. But intrinsically increasing an objects gravity?

Apply handwavium, I guess.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think they're still rare. Its just they got put back in the codices.

they aren't rare at all. they used to be tech priest only rare like conversion beamers. Now almost every squad of marines can carry them. They are currently as rare as flamers or melta guns in most SM armies

Thats game mechanics, not lore.

oldzoggy wrote:I have no idea what the fluff reason is or could be for them being no longer rare artifacts and why they are suddenly this lethal.

I believe the fluff justification is that the graviton guns found in The Horus Heresy game were essentially lifting tools (think handheld tractor beams) that were hastily repurposed of weapons after someone saw their potential. The variant found 10,000 years later is a version of that technology that was designed to be used as a weapon, through that STC only being found recently and most definitely not the result of the Mechanicus studying and weaponizing the technology. Grav-weapons are still considered rare, in the same way that plasma weapons are rare. However, like plasma, that doesn't stop every Astartes player from fielding as many of these weapons as they possibly can if they are so inclined.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
This would stop any living thing from circulating fluids in its body, and sever connective tissue between limbs. I'm all for cool sci-fi stuff, but this weapon would auto kill anything with mass-dependent structure. Blood would instantly fill the feet and depart the head.

Also, where did the mass come from? What would the equal and opposite reaction to this action be? Does the object retain it's size and somehow gain density(impossible without adding constituent material) or do the spaces between its atoms shrink to miniscule size(requiring absurd amounts of energy)?

Honestly is probably one of the most absurd weapons systems in 40k. I suppose you could justify it somehow by saying that it instead creates a magnetic connection between it and the planetary body that simulates gravity by pulling the two objects together with extreme force. But intrinsically increasing an objects gravity?

Apply handwavium, I guess.

I swear its a black hole gun...

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
This would stop any living thing from circulating fluids in its body, and sever connective tissue between limbs. I'm all for cool sci-fi stuff, but this weapon would auto kill anything with mass-dependent structure. Blood would instantly fill the feet and depart the head.

Also, where did the mass come from? What would the equal and opposite reaction to this action be? Does the object retain it's size and somehow gain density(impossible without adding constituent material) or do the spaces between its atoms shrink to miniscule size(requiring absurd amounts of energy)?

Honestly is probably one of the most absurd weapons systems in 40k. I suppose you could justify it somehow by saying that it instead creates a magnetic connection between it and the planetary body that simulates gravity by pulling the two objects together with extreme force. But intrinsically increasing an objects gravity?

Apply handwavium, I guess.

Well, if we were able to manipulate gravity, which is normally a function of the mass of the 2 objects in question, it could simulate the effect of one object having more mass.

We still don't know how gravity works. It just sort of happens magically, and somehow it happens regardless of distance. But if its some sort of quantum particle interaction it could theoretically be messed with. Like if normally an object of X mass generates a pull of a certain number of particles, then if you could somehow multiple the number of graviton particles that are being generated in a particular location you could cause gravity to increase without changing mass. A sort of false mass effect.

So at a particular location, you cause one object to generate the gravitons of an object with a thousand times more mass. This causes a localized gravity well which acts accordingly, and nasty things happen to any object that can't handle that level of gravity.

Alternately, maybe they are small wormhole guns which open a small one way wormhole to a neutron star or some other object with insane gravity, causing the gravity to effect matter directly in a small area around the wormhole.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think they're still rare. Its just they got put back in the codices.

they aren't rare at all. they used to be tech priest only rare like conversion beamers. Now almost every squad of marines can carry them. They are currently as rare as flamers or melta guns in most SM armies

SM and their weapons are incredibly rare in the fluff, much more so than tech priests. It is only on the tabletop that SM are common.

I only take one grav and combi grav in my army to represent how rare they, but i know most players don't want to hobble themselves for fluff reasons.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Well, if we were able to manipulate gravity, which is normally a function of the mass of the 2 objects in question, it could simulate the effect of one object having more mass.

We still don't know how gravity works. It just sort of happens magically, and somehow it happens regardless of distance. But if its some sort of quantum particle interaction it could theoretically be messed with. Like if normally an object of X mass generates a pull of a certain number of particles, then if you could somehow multiple the number of graviton particles that are being generated in a particular location you could cause gravity to increase without changing mass. A sort of false mass effect.

So at a particular location, you cause one object to generate the gravitons of an object with a thousand times more mass. This causes a localized gravity well which acts accordingly, and nasty things happen to any object that can't handle that level of gravity.

Alternately, maybe they are small wormhole guns which open a small one way wormhole to a neutron star or some other object with insane gravity, causing the gravity to effect matter directly in a small area around the wormhole.

If you simulate an increase in the mass of the target, then wouldnt everything else get pulled to the target as well? I mean, from the theory of gravity, every object with mass exhibits a force on everything around it. So then if you increase the force at which an object attracts things to it by increasing the its simulated mass then rather than immoiblizing the target you would just make everything around it attracted to it. So like toasters and stuff would fly off the table and stick to them. While it might also make them "heavy" as the planet is also more attracted to them, it would have way more effects.

I think it has to be targets at the ground, and should really be a blast weapon, that through some sort of space magic makes the planets (or whatever they are on) gravity stronger.

This just raises more questions though. What if they are fighting on a space craft, they target the floor of the craft and make it pull people toward it, but its way smaller than a planet so it has a minimal effect. What if the ship didnt have artifical gravity to begin with? you are all just floating around until Joe the Spacemarine fires his magic gun and then everyone is pulled to that point so that they can beat eachother with fists. What is the impact on nearby space craft? Do they suddenly slam into the one that was hit with the grav gun? It is now producing way more gravity than before?

And if we can manipulate gravity so easily (with hand held guns), why dont they just turn it around and turn off the gravity to planets with bad people on it? everyone floats off into space, turn it back on before the peices of the planet start to separate and boom, completly clean planet.

taurising wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


Well, if we were able to manipulate gravity, which is normally a function of the mass of the 2 objects in question, it could simulate the effect of one object having more mass.

We still don't know how gravity works. It just sort of happens magically, and somehow it happens regardless of distance. But if its some sort of quantum particle interaction it could theoretically be messed with. Like if normally an object of X mass generates a pull of a certain number of particles, then if you could somehow multiple the number of graviton particles that are being generated in a particular location you could cause gravity to increase without changing mass. A sort of false mass effect.

So at a particular location, you cause one object to generate the gravitons of an object with a thousand times more mass. This causes a localized gravity well which acts accordingly, and nasty things happen to any object that can't handle that level of gravity.

Alternately, maybe they are small wormhole guns which open a small one way wormhole to a neutron star or some other object with insane gravity, causing the gravity to effect matter directly in a small area around the wormhole.

If you simulate an increase in the mass of the target, then wouldnt everything else get pulled to the target as well? I mean, from the theory of gravity, every object with mass exhibits a force on everything around it. So then if you increase the force at which an object attracts things to it by increasing the its simulated mass then rather than immoiblizing the target you would just make everything around it attracted to it. So like toasters and stuff would fly off the table and stick to them. While it might also make them "heavy" as the planet is also more attracted to them, it would have way more effects.

I think it has to be targets at the ground, and should really be a blast weapon, that through some sort of space magic makes the planets (or whatever they are on) gravity stronger.

This just raises more questions though. What if they are fighting on a space craft, they target the floor of the craft and make it pull people toward it, but its way smaller than a planet so it has a minimal effect. What if the ship didnt have artifical gravity to begin with? you are all just floating around until Joe the Spacemarine fires his magic gun and then everyone is pulled to that point so that they can beat eachother with fists. What is the impact on nearby space craft? Do they suddenly slam into the one that was hit with the grav gun? It is now producing way more gravity than before?

And if we can manipulate gravity so easily (with hand held guns), why dont they just turn it around and turn off the gravity to planets with bad people on it? everyone floats off into space, turn it back on before the peices of the planet start to separate and boom, completly clean planet.

That would only happen if the gun could make objects so dense they would be actually massive. We are talking planet size level of mass, and it would certainly have to be above, and considerably above the mass of the planet or object the unit is on. You could increase my mass with such a gun to the point I would drop dead, but I am not going to create my own orbit for household items, not even if you increased my mass by 1,000,000.

Exactly.

Mount Everest is billions of times more massive than a human is, but its not generating significant gravity compared to the Earth.

In order for grav guns to work the way it states they do, as in crushing the armour of an enemy like a tin can, it would have to cause a singular point in the armour to increase in gravity so that it can collapse into that point. The only way to do that is by giving it more constituent matter, or decreasing the space between the atoms that make up the armour (thus shrinking it to miniscule size.)

Altering the Higgs field to produce more graviton concentration in a single point is a nice thought, but I have to point out that gravitons aren't made of nothing and this is essentially the same as adding more constituent matter to the system. This has to come from somewhere. This would produce a gravitational Vacuum of sorts as everything in a certain radius would have gravitons from it pulled into the system, possibly killing the user or making his equipment useless or other various effects. However much you increased the gravity, you MUST decrease the gravity of the universe in the immediate surrounding area(actually the rest of the entire universe, as gravitons shifted places ever so slightly towards the effect you just created, but the effect would only be really noticeable close to the anomaly). The effect would proceed in a manner describing the inverse square law. (I think). This also produces the problem of having to calculate precisely how many gravitons are needed to kill each individual object without damaging the surroundings, while having no way to weigh the object in question. I really don't think this is plausible.

Furthermore, once you start this process, why does it stop? What causes it to "know" the object doesn't need any more gravitons? This isn't something you can hook up to a computer chip and just count gravitons. You will have created a black hole, or another scary gravitational anomaly, perhaps one we don't know about yet.

Honestly, shrinking the space between the atoms is something that is more plausible in terms of weaponization, as you could produce an extremely high energy containment field that forces the atoms into each other, like a nuclear fusion reactor. But at that point, you're already melting the living gak out of things within the field, and they would be turned into a plasma ball anyways... so why exert more energy to increase the mass of the object? Why not just do this inside your gun to a smaller object and fling it out the end at the enemy(plasma guns)

As far as I know, in physics, one cannot increase an objects gravity without changing what it is, or increasing it's speed relative to that of light.

Something else neat that the graviton field interpretation would also do, is increase that object's intrinsic time passage relative to it's environment. The object would, from it's perspective, watch the battle unfold in a picosecond. You wouldn't even have to kill the object to take it out of the fight. You would be aged and dead before it could react, simply sitting in this chamber of increased gravity. It's death would be inevitable, however.

Disclaimer: I am not a physicist.

Rogue Traders rules totally look like Dark Heresy's rules^^

Just to confuse things, there are two different weapons in the game with similar names, Grav Guns in 40k and Graviton Guns in 30k.

Grav Gun - Range 18", S*, AP2, Salvo 2/3, Concussive, Graviton (Use targets Armour Save instead of Toughness To Wound, 6+ causes an Immobilise result on vehicles).

Graviton Gun - Range 18", S*, AP4, Heavy 1, Blast, Haywire, Graviton Pulse (instead of rolling To Wound, any model hit must pass a Strength Check or suffer a wound. After firing, leave the blast marker in place and count it as Difficult and Dangerous Terrain for the next turn).

Graviton Guns are described in the Horus Heresy books as being used primarily to damage machinery and impede troops, with the side effect of being able to rupture organs and crack bones. While both Grav and Graviton guns are seemingly 'gravity projection weapons', they seem to operate somewhat differently from each other.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Just to confuse things, there are two different weapons in the game with similar names, Grav Guns in 40k and Graviton Guns in 30k.

Grav Gun - Range 18", S*, AP2, Salvo 2/3, Concussive, Graviton (Use targets Armour Save instead of Toughness To Wound, 6+ causes an Immobilise result on vehicles).

Graviton Gun - Range 18", S*, AP4, Heavy 1, Blast, Haywire, Graviton Pulse (instead of rolling To Wound, any model hit must pass a Strength Check or suffer a wound. After firing, leave the blast marker in place and count it as Difficult and Dangerous Terrain for the next turn).

Graviton Guns are described in the Horus Heresy books as being used primarily to damage machinery and impede troops, with the side effect of being able to rupture organs and crack bones. While both Grav and Graviton guns are seemingly 'gravity projection weapons', they seem to operate somewhat differently from each other.

I believe the fluff justification for the difference, as mentioned above, is that Heresy-era graviton weapons were basically tools that someone realized were also pretty good for combat. 41st millennium grav weapons, on the other hand, are items that were designed with warfare in mind, either by the Mechanicus tinkering with the old graviton tech and passing off the newer version as a "rediscovered" STC, or actually rediscovering an STC for grav weaponry. Don't quote me on that, I just remember reading it somewhere.

STC tech isn't nearly as rigid as some people might think.

Its more that the technology itself is sacred, but you can make it fit your situation and needs.

So mounting your Graviton beam generators on a more convenient mount and turning up the power to weapon grade levels is kosher. What wouldn't be kosher is trying to alter the Graviton beam generator itself.

Bear in mind that "grav" and "graviton" weapons aren't quite the same thing. The latter show up in Heresy-era forces, and as a strategic asset in siege games using the rules from the IA Badab War books, and have different rules from the Grav weapons in Codex: Space Marines.

I don't know if the difference is supposed to be meaningful in the setting or if it's just rules.

Also, I like to think that a lot of the religious debates in the Adeptus Mechanicus over whether something is an STC or not essentially boil down to the persuasive skills of the magi in question. whether something is heretical or not is perhaps not as "factual" a question as some light like to believe.