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Hey there!

How does the psychic phase work, if I have a Psyker in a Brotherhood of psykers unit?
(for example: Castellan Crowe in a unit of Purifiers)

Specially:

- If both have the same psychic power - can I cast it twice? (For example if one power fails, gets denied or I just want to cast it twice)
- If it affects "the unit" -> does it affect both?
- in the case of "Hammerhand", does the bonus of a blessing stack? (Hammerhand is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit have +2 Strength.)

As I understand it, the answers are: yes, yes, yes.

Aeri wrote:
Hey there!

How does the psychic phase work, if I have a Psyker in a Brotherhood of psykers unit?
(for example: Castellan Crowe in a unit of Purifiers)

It doesn't. RAW breaks down and you enter houserule territory.

Specially:

- If both have the same psychic power - can I cast it twice? (For example if one power fails, gets denied or I just want to cast it twice)
- If it affects "the unit" -> does it affect both?
- in the case of "Hammerhand", does the bonus of a blessing stack? (Hammerhand is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit have +2 Strength.)

As I understand it, the answers are: yes, yes, yes.

1. No, a Psychic unit can never attempt to cast the same power multiple times.
2. Yes, whilst attached, the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes.
3. A unit can never benefit from the same psychic power multiple times.

Ok 2 and 3 seem alright to me.

but for 1):
Why does it not matter that both are technically psykers on their own?

 Happyjew wrote:
2. Yes, whilst attached, the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Note that this also means that (by RAW) you wouldn't count Crowe's Mastery Level when rolling for Warp Charges... as he is a part of the Brotherhood Unit, the whole unit counts as the Brotherhood's Mastery Level. If he was joined to a non-Brotherhood psyker unit, it gets messy, as we then have no way to determine the unit's Mastery Level at all.



Most players ignore the RAW here and treat the IC as a separate psyker unit even when joined to another unit. Although opinions are still somewhat divided as to whether or not to allow them both to cast the same power in that situation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aeri wrote:
Ok 2 and 3 seem alright to me.

but for 1):
Why does it not matter that both are technically psykers on their own?

Because the rules only care about psyker units, not individual psykers. As a psyker unit is a unit with the 'Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of X rule', the Brotherhood unit and any ICs joined to it count as a single psyker unit by RAW.

Psykers count separately for Warp Charges, but ICs attached to BoP units are limited to which powers may be case as the unit itself cannot case the same power twice without specific permission (as seen on some Psyker ICs). In the case of Crowe attached to Purifiers, his PML counts for Warp Charges, but Cleansing Flames can only be cast once per turn.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Psykers count separately for Warp Charges,

No, sorry, but they don't.

Warp charges are generated by counting the mastery level of your psyker units. An IC joined to a Brotherhood unit is a single psyker unit.


Counting them separately is how most people appear to play it, but it's not what the rules say to do.

Especially in the case of Brotherhood of Psykers, where you are specifically told to use the mastery level on the datasheet, or, if it is not specified on the sheet, count it as ML1

Personally i think the most consistent way to house rule it is, if you are going to count everything with a ML as separate for generating charges, they should also be counted as separate when casting powers, meaning each one can cast any power he knows, regardless of the other psykers in his unit

The IC is a Psyker unit. The BoP unit is a Psyker unit. Together, they are a unit. GW is kind of dumb in how they use nonspecific words to means different yet similar terms.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The IC is a Psyker unit. The BoP unit is a Psyker unit. Together, they are a unit.

And as a psyker unit is a unit with the psyker, psychic pilot or Brotherhood rules, and since the IC joined to the BoP unit counts as a single unit, they are a single psyker unit.

The IC can't count as a separate psyker unit without being a separate unit, because the tag 'psyker unit' is applied to units.

Also take it a step further and if a psyker is in a BoP unit, what happens with perils? For example a GK librarian is in a unit of purifiers and casts psychic shriek with 2 6's being rolled. Per the rules of brotherhood of psykers, you randomize which model just had a perils roll even though only 1 model in that unit actively knew the power.

Or take this for example, since the psyker joins the unit and then becomes the unit. How do known powers work? Can my purifiers in the above example now cast psychic shriek since the unit knows that power? If I were to roll with the Space Marine Librarian conclave and have multiple librarians in purifier units near each other, could they roll with cleansing flame on a bonus to warp charge gathering?

icefire78 wrote:
Also take it a step further and if a psyker is in a BoP unit, what happens with perils? For example a GK librarian is in a unit of purifiers and casts psychic shriek with 2 6's being rolled. Per the rules of brotherhood of psykers, you randomize which model just had a perils roll even though only 1 model in that unit actively knew the power.

It's actually a little better than that.

In a Brotherhood unit, only models with the Brotherhood rule suffer Perils.

Or take this for example, since the psyker joins the unit and then becomes the unit. How do known powers work? Can my purifiers in the above example now cast psychic shriek since the unit knows that power? If I were to roll with the Space Marine Librarian conclave and have multiple librarians in purifier units near each other, could they roll with cleansing flame on a bonus to warp charge gathering?

Powers are cast by psyker units, not by individual psykers... but exactly how that works when only some models in the unit 'know' the power is unclear. As is what happens when a psyker joins a non-psyker unit.

The mess that is created when you go down either of those roads is what leads people to conclude that we're supposed to treat IC psykers as separate psyker units even when they're joined to another unit.

PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS
For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

GENERATE WARP CHARGE

Spoiler:

At the beginning of each Psychic phase, the player whose turn it is rolls a D6. Then, each player takes a number of dice equal to the result of the D6 roll; those dice are their Warp Charge pool. Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked on Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
For example, Andy rolls a D6 at the start of his Psychic phase and rolls a 3. Andy has three Psyker units currently on the table: a Primaris Psyker with Mastery Level 2, an Astropath with Mastery Level 1 and a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers with Mastery Level 1. Andy therefore has 7 dice in his Warp Charge pool (3+2+1+1=7). Andy’s opponent has only a single Psyker unit currently on the table: a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer with Mastery Level 2. Andy’s opponent therefore has 5 dice in his Warp Charge pool (3+2=5).

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS
The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

Excerpts From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/AjAB0.l

So, per RAW, an Independent Character Psyker is a separate unit from a Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers unit during Warp Charge generation and the casting of powers. However, also per RAW, the unit as a whole cannot cast the same power twice in one turn without permission. GW is lazy in using the same words to mean different things, in this case "Psyker" and "Psyker unit" mean the same thing just like "Deep Strike" and "Deep Strike Reserve" mean the same thing, yet "unit" is not necessarily the same as "Psyker unit", just like an "Assault Cannon" is not an Assault Weapon nor is a "Heavy Flamer" a Heavy Weapon. In context with the rules as written (RAW) and the example given under Manifesting Psychic Powers (RAI), we are informed that Psychic Mastery Levels are counted separate from units, ICs with Psyker are not effected by the BoP rule, yet an IC attached to a unit with another Psyker/BoP cannot cast the same power the other Psyker/BoP already cast that turn.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS
For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

GENERATE WARP CHARGE

Spoiler:

At the beginning of each Psychic phase, the player whose turn it is rolls a D6. Then, each player takes a number of dice equal to the result of the D6 roll; those dice are their Warp Charge pool. Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked on Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
For example, Andy rolls a D6 at the start of his Psychic phase and rolls a 3. Andy has three Psyker units currently on the table: a Primaris Psyker with Mastery Level 2, an Astropath with Mastery Level 1 and a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers with Mastery Level 1. Andy therefore has 7 dice in his Warp Charge pool (3+2+1+1=7). Andy’s opponent has only a single Psyker unit currently on the table: a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer with Mastery Level 2. Andy’s opponent therefore has 5 dice in his Warp Charge pool (3+2=5).

So, per RAW, an Independent Character Psyker is a separate unit from a Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers unit during Warp Charge generation and the casting of powers. However, also per RAW, the unit as a whole cannot cast the same power twice in one turn without permission.

I'm sorry, but that is said nowhere in what you quoted. While they do not share Special Rules unless specified, nothing in there separates their identity as separate units for the purpose of generating Warp Charges.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GW is lazy in using the same words to mean different things, in this case "Psyker" and "Psyker unit" mean the same thing just like "Deep Strike" and "Deep Strike Reserve" mean the same thing,

Misquoting something out of context does not make your point any better.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
yet "unit" is not necessarily the same as "Psyker unit", just like an "Assault Cannon" is not an Assault Weapon nor is a "Heavy Flamer" a Heavy Weapon.

And yet, without any further information, it is. They do not separate it out. Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer are red herrings since we are talking about Weapon titles just like a power called Force Push wouldn't have the Force rule in it. But that still doesn't change when "the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules", does not separate IC Psykers from BoP units.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
In context with the rules as written (RAW) and the example given under Manifesting Psychic Powers (RAI), we are informed that Psychic Mastery Levels are counted separate from units, ICs with Psyker are not effected by the BoP rule, yet an IC attached to a unit with another Psyker/BoP cannot cast the same power the other Psyker/BoP already cast that turn.

So, which PML takes priority in this case or are they added together? Your quotes do not cover this. And this is but one more point of fail for the Psychic Phase.

Now, I have no problem with House Ruling it to work as you state, but in the end, it is still a House Rule.

Actually, I covered the pertinent rules and in-BRB example. PML is treated separately for WC generation, each Psyker casts separately, and the only restriction is that a unit (not a Psyker unit) cannot cast the same power twice. All of that is in plain English. I even cited where it requires an IC Psyker to not be effected by the perils of a BoP Psyker.

To play otherwise would be to ignore RAW.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Actually, I covered the pertinent rules and in-BRB example. PML is treated separately for WC generation, each Psyker casts separately, and the only restriction is that a unit (not a Psyker unit) cannot cast the same power twice. All of that is in plain English. I even cited where it requires an IC Psyker to not be effected by the perils of a BoP Psyker.

Incorrect. The rule you quoted does not separate them out as separate units. You quoted no rule that allows you to combine all the PMLs from all models with a Psyker rule in a single unit. The example does not use a Psyker IC in a BoP unit, it specifically states 3 separate units. Read it again:

At the beginning of each Psychic phase, the player whose turn it is rolls a D6. Then, each player takes a number of dice equal to the result of the D6 roll; those dice are their Warp Charge pool. Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked on Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
For example, Andy rolls a D6 at the start of his Psychic phase and rolls a 3. Andy has three Psyker units currently on the table: a Primaris Psyker with Mastery Level 2, an Astropath with Mastery Level 1 and a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers with Mastery Level 1. Andy therefore has 7 dice in his Warp Charge pool (3+2+1+1=7). Andy’s opponent has only a single Psyker unit currently on the table: a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer with Mastery Level 2. Andy’s opponent therefore has 5 dice in his Warp Charge pool (3+2=5).

PMLs are only considered for the Psyker units, which translated is "any UNIT with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules." *emphasis mine. Note, that it only considers units, not models, and the rulebook makes it very clear the difference between the two. Nor does it state what to do if a unit has more than one PML in it.

In the example, three units are quoted for "Andy", a Primaris Psyker, an Astropath, and a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers. At no point are any referenced as being joined with another, and all are referenced as units. If they are all referenced as units, the ICs are operating on their own and not joined to another.

So, no, the rules you have quoted have failed to support this position.

Now, I think that the direction you are taking is a logical approach for a House Rules setup, and I see most people playing it that way, but that does not mean that is what the rulebook says.

BRB wrote: For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

what more needs to be said?

Charistoph, what's your opinion regarding the first question?

That is only true if you ignore that "Psyker" and "Psyker unit" are the same thing, as seen here:

PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS
For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

An IC with the Psyker special rule is a Psyker, aka a Psyker unit, with a Psychic Mastery Level. A unit with the BoP special rule is a Psyker, aka a Psyker unit, with a Psychic Mastery Level. While IC attached to a unit is consider a member for all rules purposes, those purposes do not include the sharing of special rules. An IC's PML is separate from a BoP's PML per the IC rules. The rules for Manifesting Warp Charges tell us to count all PMLs. Nowhere in the rules does it tell us to ignore an IC's PML in favor of a BoP's PML.

You are confusing the term "Psyker unit" for "Psyker + Unit" when in fact "Psyker unit" just means "Psyker".

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

An IC with the Psyker special rule is a Psyker, aka a Psyker unit,

This is not what the rules say at all.

For the psychic phase, a psyker, or a psyker unit, is a UNIT with the Psyker rule.

When the IC is by himself, he is a unit with the Psyker rule, and so is a psyker unit.

When the IC is joined to another unit, the IC and the unit to which he is joined are a single unit for all rules purposes. So the IC is not a unit in his own right, and therefore is not a unit with the psyker rule, and therefore is not a psyker unit. He is a part of the unit, in this case a brotherhood unit which is a psyker unit.

So an IC psyker and a separate Brotherhood unit are two psyker units. A Brotherhood unit with a psyker IC joined to it are a single psyker unit, because they are a single unit.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
That is only true if you ignore that "Psyker" and "Psyker unit" are the same thing, as seen here:

PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS
For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

An IC with the Psyker special rule is a Psyker, aka a Psyker unit, with a Psychic Mastery Level. A unit with the BoP special rule is a Psyker, aka a Psyker unit, with a Psychic Mastery Level. While IC attached to a unit is consider a member for all rules purposes, those purposes do not include the sharing of special rules. An IC's PML is separate from a BoP's PML per the IC rules. The rules for Manifesting Warp Charges tell us to count all PMLs. Nowhere in the rules does it tell us to ignore an IC's PML in favor of a BoP's PML.

You are confusing the term "Psyker unit" for "Psyker + Unit" when in fact "Psyker unit" just means "Psyker".

You just quoted the rule where it says that the term Psyker and Psyker unit are both refering to a UNIT, not a model, with a Psyker rule (Psyker, Psyker Pilot, BoP). I am not confusing anything. If anything, GW is confusing things by not being clearer about the situation. There are not rules for units within units (not counting Embarking, that's a totally different situation), and the Psyker rules do not provide any. When an IC unit joins another unit, they become a member of that unit for all rules purposes. Their unit identity is not enforceable at this point. They cannot be singled out as a unit of their own until they leave that unit. You have quoted nothing to state otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jokerkd wrote:

BRB wrote: For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

what more needs to be said?

Charistoph, what's your opinion regarding the first question?

For the OP question? I'm glad I run Necrons and Black Templars. That's my opinion.

The Psychic Phase is an umitigated mess because of that line and its interactions across the Phase's rules. I have no problem with the House Rules Jeffersonian has stated, and I know people locally who play that way, and have no problem with them playing that way.

 insaniak wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

An IC with the Psyker special rule is a Psyker, aka a Psyker unit,

This is not what the rules say at all.

For the psychic phase, a psyker, or a psyker unit, is a UNIT with the Psyker rule.

When the IC is by himself, he is a unit with the Psyker rule, and so is a psyker unit.

When the IC is joined to another unit, the IC and the unit to which he is joined are a single unit for all rules purposes. So the IC is not a unit in his own right, and therefore is not a unit with the psyker rule, and therefore is not a psyker unit. He is a part of the unit, in this case a brotherhood unit which is a psyker unit.

So an IC psyker and a separate Brotherhood unit are two psyker units. A Brotherhood unit with a psyker IC joined to it are a single psyker unit, because they are a single unit.

Please cite a rule that removes a special rule from an IC when it joins another unit. Please a rule that overrides a unit's PML. You won't find one.

A Psyker IC is a unit and a Psyker unit. A BoP unit is a Psyker unit and a unit. An IC Psyker attached to a BoP unit is two Psyker units in a unit. The IC rules require the IC to retain its own special rules separate from the unit it is attached to, and vis versa. The only rule in a Psychic phase to restricts both the IC and it's attached unit is the one that restrict the UNIT, not the PSYKER UNIT from casting the same power twice.

Not a house rule. RAW.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

An IC with the Psyker special rule is a Psyker, aka a Psyker unit,

This is not what the rules say at all.

For the psychic phase, a psyker, or a psyker unit, is a UNIT with the Psyker rule.

When the IC is by himself, he is a unit with the Psyker rule, and so is a psyker unit.

When the IC is joined to another unit, the IC and the unit to which he is joined are a single unit for all rules purposes. So the IC is not a unit in his own right, and therefore is not a unit with the psyker rule, and therefore is not a psyker unit. He is a part of the unit, in this case a brotherhood unit which is a psyker unit.

So an IC psyker and a separate Brotherhood unit are two psyker units. A Brotherhood unit with a psyker IC joined to it are a single psyker unit, because they are a single unit.

Please cite a rule that removes a special rule from an IC when it joins another unit. Please a rule that overrides a unit's PML. You won't find one.

A Psyker IC is a unit and a Psyker unit. A BoP unit is a Psyker unit and a unit. An IC Psyker attached to a BoP unit is two Psyker units in a unit. The IC rules require the IC to retain its own special rules separate from the unit it is attached to, and vis versa. The only rule in a Psychic phase to restricts both the IC and it's attached unit is the one that restrict the UNIT, not the PSYKER UNIT from casting the same power twice.

Not a house rule. RAW.

SJ

So while attached the Psyker IC is not a normal member of the BoP unit for all rules purposes?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

An IC with the Psyker special rule is a Psyker, aka a Psyker unit,

This is not what the rules say at all.

For the psychic phase, a psyker, or a psyker unit, is a UNIT with the Psyker rule.

When the IC is by himself, he is a unit with the Psyker rule, and so is a psyker unit.

When the IC is joined to another unit, the IC and the unit to which he is joined are a single unit for all rules purposes. So the IC is not a unit in his own right, and therefore is not a unit with the psyker rule, and therefore is not a psyker unit. He is a part of the unit, in this case a brotherhood unit which is a psyker unit.

So an IC psyker and a separate Brotherhood unit are two psyker units. A Brotherhood unit with a psyker IC joined to it are a single psyker unit, because they are a single unit.

Please cite a rule that removes a special rule from an IC when it joins another unit.

That is not what he said, or is saying. You seem to have a difficulty in grasping how an IC interacts with units. If a Psyker IC joins a BoP unit, it goes from 2 Psyker units to 1, just as it goes from 2 units to 1. The joined unit is "a unit with the Psyker, Psyker Pilot, or Brotherhood of Pyskers rule", not two "unit(s) with the Psyker, Psyker Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers rule" when joined.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Please a rule that overrides a unit's PML. You won't find one.

Show a rule that shows how to calculate a unit's combined PML?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
A Psyker IC is a unit and a Psyker unit. A BoP unit is a Psyker unit and a unit. An IC Psyker attached to a BoP unit is two Psyker units in a unit. The IC rules require the IC to retain its own special rules separate from the unit it is attached to, and vis versa. The only rule in a Psychic phase to restricts both the IC and it's attached unit is the one that restrict the UNIT, not the PSYKER UNIT from casting the same power twice.

Incorrect. An IC in a unit is still just ONE unit, Psykers or not. The Psyker unit definition does not change this. It does not state anywhere that they are treated as two units when joined. In all your quotes you have provided zero evidence to support this assertion. The Psyker rule itself does not separate out the owner to being a unit within a unit. You keep ignoring the very first quote which defined "Psyker" and "Psyker unit".

PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS
For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

Psyker
A model with this special rule is a Psyker. This rule is typically presented with a Mastery Level, shown in brackets – if no Mastery Level is shown then that model has a Mastery Level of 1. Rules for generating and manifesting psychic powers can be found in the Psychic phase section.

Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers
A unit containing at least one model with this special rule is a Psyker unit – if no Mastery Level is shown, then that unit has a Mastery Level of 1. Rules for generating and manifesting psychic powers can be found in the Psychic phase section. The unit follows all the normal rules for Psykers, with the following clarifications:
• When manifesting a psychic power, this unit measures range and line of sight from, and uses the characteristics profile (if required) of, any one model in the unit that has the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule (controlling player’s choice).
• If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, or is hit by an attack that specifically targets Psykers, the hits are Randomly Allocated amongst models with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule. If a model with this special rule gains or loses a psychic power, all other models with this special rule in their unit also gain or lose that power.

So, pray tell, where in all of that does it refer to the model with the rule being treated as a separate unit, even while being joined to another unit?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Not a house rule. RAW.

Treating an IC joined to another unit as a separate unit is a House Rule, not RAW. At least, so far as you have properly quoted.

Brotherhood of psykers is actually worded in the way, defined in the IC rules, that includes a joined IC.

It states that the unit (singular) is a psyker unit (singular) and that if the unit's ML is not shown, it is mastery level 1

Draigo joined to purifiers becomes a single unit. He counts as part of the unit he joined for all rules purposes. That single unit needs a mastery level. It is either the mastery level shown on the purifier datasheet or it is mastery level 1

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Please cite a rule that removes a special rule from an IC when it joins another unit. Please a rule that overrides a unit's PML. You won't find one.

Indeed I won't. But then, I never claimed that either of those things happen.

A Psyker IC is a unit and a Psyker unit.

This is true.

A BoP unit is a Psyker unit and a unit.

This is true.

An IC Psyker attached to a BoP unit is two Psyker units in a unit.

This is false.


A psyker unit is a unit with the psyker rule. While a psyker IC is joined to a Brotherhood unit, they're all a single unit. As there is only a single unit there, there can only be a single unit with the psyker rule. And therefore, there can only be a single psyker unit there.


To have two psyker units, you need to have two units.

The IC rules require the IC to retain its own special rules separate from the unit it is attached to, and vis versa.

Yes, the IC retains his own special rules. That doesn't change the fact that he is no longer a unit in his own right.

While joined to another unit he is a model with the psyker rule... but a psyker unit is a unit with that rule.

Psyker and Psyker unit are the same thing. An IC with the Psyker USR does not lose it's PML when it joins a BoP unit. If you think it does, prove it.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Psyker and Psyker unit are the same thing. An IC with the Psyker USR does not lose it's PML when it joins a BoP unit. If you think it does, prove it.

Again, who is saying that?

What has been stated is that there no rules regarding the combining of PMLs when two Psyker units are joined. That's an entirely different subject, so do you have rules to counter this, or are you going to provide it?

I see no rule that allows one unit to be treated as two when generating warp charges.

Your IC doesn't lose his ML when joined to a unit. He just no longer jas permission to add it to the charge pool

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Psyker and Psyker unit are the same thing.

For the purposes of resolving the psychic phase, yes, absolutely right. That's exactly the issue.

You keep ignoring the fact that the psychic phase rules use those two terms in relation to units, not individual models.

An IC with the Psyker USR does not lose it's PML when it joins a BoP unit. If you think it does, prove it.

You posted the relevant rule yourself :

A unit containing at least one model with this special rule is a Psyker unit – if no Mastery Level is shown, then that unit has a Mastery Level of 1.

While the IC is joined to a brotherhood unit, he is a part of that unit for all rules purposes. So it doesn't matter what the IC's Mastery level is, because you don't refer to individual models' Mastery levels at all. You count the Mastery levels of all of your psyker units... And while the IC is joined to the Brotherhood unit, that unit has the Mastery Level specified for that Brotherhood unit.

IMHO both sides have good arguments and after reading the rules I think there is no right answer.

I am now refering to the T³ FAQ (big german Tournament organizer): https://www.tabletopturniere.de/article/Warhammer-40K-FAQ

"Psychic Phase Clarifications, PPC

[...]
PPC.3 A single Psyker may try to cast a single psychic power only once per turn. If there are more psykers in a unit knowing the same psychic power, each psyker may try to cast the same psychic power, (BRB P. 24) [clarification]"

Original:
(Ein einzelner Psioniker darf in seinem Spielerzug maximal ein (1) Mal versuchen, eine einzelne Psikraft zu manifestieren. Sollten mehrere Psioniker in einer (1) Einheit sein und über die gleiche Psikraft verfügen, so kann jeder Psioniker ein (1) Mal versuchen, die gleiche Psikraft zu wirken. (RB S. 24) [Klarstellung])



This FAQ is HUGE and helped settle a lot of arguments because they are not only very experienced, but also have to deal with rule arguments on a regular basis (therfore the faq).
They use the english Rules btw.

Aeri wrote:
IMHO both sides have good arguments and after reading the rules I think there is no right answer.

I am now refering to the T³ FAQ (big german Tournament organizer): https://www.tabletopturniere.de/article/Warhammer-40K-FAQ

"Psychic Phase Clarifications, PPC

[...]
PPC.3 A single Psyker may try to cast a single psychic power only once per turn. If there are more psykers in a unit knowing the same psychic power, each psyker may try to cast the same psychic power, (BRB P. 24) [clarification]"

Original:
(Ein einzelner Psioniker darf in seinem Spielerzug maximal ein (1) Mal versuchen, eine einzelne Psikraft zu manifestieren. Sollten mehrere Psioniker in einer (1) Einheit sein und über die gleiche Psikraft verfügen, so kann jeder Psioniker ein (1) Mal versuchen, die gleiche Psikraft zu wirken. (RB S. 24) [Klarstellung])



This FAQ is HUGE and helped settle a lot of arguments because they are not only very experienced, but also have to deal with rule arguments on a regular basis (therfore the faq).
They use the english Rules btw.

That's not a clarification, that's a rule change. I posted the relevent rules already in this thread, but here's it again:

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS
The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

The bolded part is in the BRB, that's not me emphasizing it. It is the only rule in the Psychic phase that specifies "unit" rather than "Psyker" or "Psyker unit". Which means that if two Psykers are in the same unit they cannot cast the same power that has already been casted by another model in the same unit.

As to Warp Charge generation, I will post the relevent rule again:

GENERATE WARP CHARGE
At the beginning of each Psychic phase, the player whose turn it is rolls a D6. Then, each player takes a number of dice equal to the result of the D6 roll; those dice are their Warp Charge pool. Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked on Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
For example, Andy rolls a D6 at the start of his Psychic phase and rolls a 3. Andy has three Psyker units currently on the table: a Primaris Psyker with Mastery Level 2, an Astropath with Mastery Level 1 and a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers with Mastery Level 1. Andy therefore has 7 dice in his Warp Charge pool (3+2+1+1=7). Andy’s opponent has only a single Psyker unit currently on the table: a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer with Mastery Level 2. Andy’s opponent therefore has 5 dice in his Warp Charge pool (3+2=5).

This is one of those times intent is written in the BRB via the example. PML are accounted for separately. While others are correct in that there are no dircet rules covering how to treat multiple Psykers in the same unit, there are direct rules under Independent Characters that tell us IC do not share their rules with the unit nor does the unit share its rules with the IC unless the rules themselves give permission to be shared. Neither the Psyker rule nor the Brotherhood of Psykers rule grant permission to be shared, nor do they tell us not to use those rules in a combined unit. As per the actual rules on generating Warp Charges and casting powers, PMLs are treated separately on a model per model basis while powers actually cast are restricted by the unit.

SJ