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If a Stompa Moves 12" does a unit firing out of it snapshoot?

The rules in question:

Nevah snapshoot!!! Woot BS 2!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Subquestion... where are buzzgobs stompa rules located?

I would agree. Walkers never "move at cruising speed" - because they follow the rules for infantry for movement - so the issue never comes up.

Meaning they never count as having moved, either.

Bs2 on the move lootas?

(If someone can see an obvious issue with that, please chime in - I cant see it on first look)

Given that a Big Mek in Mega Armour can do the same for not many points at all, I can't see someone taking issue with it for a 700+ point stompa. It's not like either

a) It actually has that many fire points
b) Orks 'Getting Full Ballistic Skill Shots' is, you know, actually that good...

locarno24 wrote:
Given that a Big Mek in Mega Armour can do the same for not many points at all, I can't see someone taking issue with it for a 700+ point stompa. It's not like either

a) It actually has that many fire points
b) Orks 'Getting Full Ballistic Skill Shots' is, you know, actually that good...

Question Spawned by ITC deciding that Buzzgob's Stompa is only 400 points (Based on a typo, forgeworld meant it to be 930). That Stompa has 10 fire points, so Lootas would indeed be valuable.

locarno24 wrote:I would agree. Walkers never "move at cruising speed" - because they follow the rules for infantry for movement - so the issue never comes up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Meaning they never count as having moved, either.

And there are no rules which cover firing out of a Transport that Walks or Runs, either, much like the MC Transport question that was brought up earlier.

Charistoph wrote:
And there are no rules which cover firing out of a Transport that Walks or Runs, either, much like the MC Transport question that was brought up earlier.

Correct. If there was a clear resolution to the MC Transport question it would probably apply to this question as well, but I don't recall there being a resolution.

Charistoph wrote:

locarno24 wrote:I would agree. Walkers never "move at cruising speed" - because they follow the rules for infantry for movement - so the issue never comes up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Meaning they never count as having moved, either.

And there are no rules which cover firing out of a Transport that Walks or Runs, either, much like the MC Transport question that was brought up earlier.

There are no rules which override the default permission which is gained by the unit, either. We don't need specific permission here.

BS2 Lootas from stompa. Yes. Well known in ork circles I thought?

I have a question again regarding these rules. Where EXACTALLY are the rules located? Battlescribe has multiple books referenced. Plus, I didn't know there were 10 firepoints.

I thought there were only 5? However I have never fielded buzzbob.

Lastly the ITC poll said a savings of 530pts? normal stompa is 770. Battlescribe says 400. Is buzgob's supposed to 930?!

Ok thanks for any answers. My apologies to the OP for my continual sidetracking... excited about this!

I never really thought about it like that, but yeah, a walker doesn't move at combat or cruising speed.

That being said, I still feel as if no penalty for snap firing from a vehicle moving 12" is more than a little cheesy. Stompas may not have many fire points, but if you make the most of them, say with a SAG, that could make a big difference.

As for the buzzgob thing, here's the link to the free FW rules:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Ork_Dread_Mob_Army_List_Update.pdf

As for the big mek stompa, it is 830 points, and buzzgob let you take it for only 300, so that's the 530 points savings. And it does indeed have 10 firing points, interesting.

It can also take 2 more deff kannons for 150 points (total), but loses its str D melee.

Big mek stompas are also equipped with a gaze of mork and lifta droppas which are pretty lackluster. I should say that they're fantastic weapons, but one shot each (per turn) at ork BS.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
And there are no rules which cover firing out of a Transport that Walks or Runs, either, much like the MC Transport question that was brought up earlier.

Correct. If there was a clear resolution to the MC Transport question it would probably apply to this question as well, but I don't recall there being a resolution.

Can you link that discussion? I'm curious to hear thoughts, as I'm not sure how to treat it with my gargantuan squiggoth.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

locarno24 wrote:I would agree. Walkers never "move at cruising speed" - because they follow the rules for infantry for movement - so the issue never comes up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Meaning they never count as having moved, either.

And there are no rules which cover firing out of a Transport that Walks or Runs, either, much like the MC Transport question that was brought up earlier.

There are no rules which override the default permission which is gained by the unit, either. We don't need specific permission here.

Ah, it's been a while and I misremembered. I thought Fire Points were separated in to Not Moving, Combat, and Cruising. Instead, it is just base permssion along with restrictions added for Combat and Cruising.

Which technically means you can run the stupid Stompa/Squiggoth and still fire! Scary.

I think I may not have quoted the most important rules for this discussion.

BRB Page 73:
"Vehicles in the Movement Phase
....
*Stationary. A vehicle that remains Stationary...
*Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed....
*Cruising Speed. A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is said to be moving at Cruising Speed..."

While Walkers move like infantry, nothing says that they don't move "Combat Speed" or "Cruising Speed" which are essentially just names given to specific distances, but are the keys to determining how models fire out of a transport.

So I think if we are playing by pure RAW then models shoot out of a Stompa that moves more than 6" are snapshooting, and models shooting out of a Stompa that moves less than 6" count as having moved.

tag8833 wrote:
I think I may not have quoted the most important rules for this discussion.

BRB Page 73:
"Vehicles in the Movement Phase
....
*Stationary. A vehicle that remains Stationary...
*Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed....
*Cruising Speed. A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is said to be moving at Cruising Speed..."

While Walkers move like infantry, nothing says that they don't move "Combat Speed" or "Cruising Speed" which are essentially just names given to specific distances, but are the keys to determining how models fire out of a transport.

So I think if we are playing by pure RAW then models shoot out of a Stompa that moves more than 6" are snapshooting, and models shooting out of a Stompa that moves less than 6" count as having moved.

The problem with that is that those are the movement rules for Vehicles, while Walkers specifically state that they use the movement rules for Infantry.

tag8833 wrote:
I think I may not have quoted the most important rules for this discussion.

BRB Page 73:
"Vehicles in the Movement Phase
....
*Stationary. A vehicle that remains Stationary...
*Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed....
*Cruising Speed. A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is said to be moving at Cruising Speed..."

While Walkers move like infantry, nothing says that they don't move "Combat Speed" or "Cruising Speed" which are essentially just names given to specific distances, but are the keys to determining how models fire out of a transport.

So I think if we are playing by pure RAW then models shoot out of a Stompa that moves more than 6" are snapshooting, and models shooting out of a Stompa that moves less than 6" count as having moved.

If you move like Infantry, could you pray tell what is the definition of Combat Speed and Cruising Speed for a Tactical Marine? A Warrior? A Terminator? A Fire Warrior?

I think the contention is that though the stompa is a walker, and moves like infantry, it's still a vehicle, and occupants of a vehicle count as having moved if the vehicles does.

 Ghaz wrote:
The problem with that is that those are the movement rules for Vehicles, while Walkers specifically state that they use the movement rules for Infantry.

Charistoph wrote:
If you move like Infantry, could you pray tell what is the definition of Combat Speed and Cruising Speed for a Tactical Marine? A Warrior? A Terminator? A Fire Warrior?

It does move like infantry. It's also a vehicle. Where in the Infantry section does it say that vehicles that move like them don't also get the keyword of Combat and Cruising speed?

The rules for Cruising Speed and Combat Speed don't specify that the vehicle has to move like a vehicle. They are just keywords associate with vehicles that move certain distances. It is a more specific rule.

Its not a perfect RAW interpretation, but neither is your interpretation that no movement of a SHV can effect the passengers.

tag8833 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
The problem with that is that those are the movement rules for Vehicles, while Walkers specifically state that they use the movement rules for Infantry.

Charistoph wrote:
If you move like Infantry, could you pray tell what is the definition of Combat Speed and Cruising Speed for a Tactical Marine? A Warrior? A Terminator? A Fire Warrior?

It does move like infantry. It's also a vehicle. Where in the Infantry section does it say that vehicles that move like them don't also get the keyword of Combat and Cruising speed?

The rules for Cruising Speed and Combat Speed don't specify that the vehicle has to move like a vehicle. They are just keywords associate with vehicles that move certain distances. It is a more specific rule.

Its not a perfect RAW interpretation, but neither is your interpretation that no movement of a SHV can effect the passengers.

I agree, neither interpretation is perfect, and I honestly see where the 'no movement penalty' argument is coming from. But I still think it's neither fair nor reasonable to claim that a SHW's movement incurs no penalty whatsoever on passenger shooting when other super heavy transports do.

And, for what it's worth (which isn't much, in many people's opinion), the ITC rules clarify that a gargantuan squiggoths movement incurs penalties to their occupants exactly like it were a vehicle moving at combat or cruising speed. Applying that ruling to a stompa's movement is a pretty natural translation, as a GC transport's movement's effect on occupants is exactly as ambiguous as a SHW's, and in exactly the same way.

tag8833 wrote:
Where in the Infantry section does it say that vehicles that move like them don't also get the keyword of Combat and Cruising speed?

Where does it say that they do?

If a unit moves like Infantry, what reason is there for referring to the movement rules for vehicles?

Agreed.

The 'basic rules' - the ones that you apply unless the game tells you to do otherwise - are the ones in the "movement phase" section of the book, which - when you look in the unit types bit, are essentially 'the rules for infantry and we'll tell you by exception if the rules for other units vary'.

Walker rules point you straight back at the core rules for movement rather than the vehicles movement rules. Nowhere in that section do you talk about combat or cruising speed.

So I was about to write a post in support of the idea that:

*Walkers have combat/cruising speed by dent of being vehicles.

*That they follow the rules for moving as infantry, but that the rules for being infantry don't interfere with having combat/cruising speed and so that they would still have them.

*That walker transports, though immune to their own combat/cruising speed, would still convey the combat/cruising speed to their passengers.

But then I saw this:

* The walker rules specify that a walker can fire all of its weapons after moving, but they say nothing about what the walker's BS would be after doing so.

* The rules for shooting vehicles reference the vehicle's combat/cruising speed. Under the section about vehicles and relentless, it states that vehicles that moved combat speed (which is the only speed your average dreadnaught would be capable of as he can't move more than 6" without weirdness) can fire one weapon at full BS and all other weapons as snapshots.

SO. Based purely on the fact that we've all been firing both dread weapons at full BS, I'm inclined to say the stompa in question would not, in fact, have a combat/cruising speed and would therefore not affect the shooting of its passengers (the rules for fire points and open-topped don't say anything about modifying the shooting of units riding in transports that don't move "combat/cruising" speed. )

That said, I think this can be pretty safely chalked up as being one of those rules interactions that weren't really considered when the rules were written. There's no "right" answer. Personally, I think it makes more sense to impose combat/cruising limitations on the passengers of a walker (walking is, itself, a not-so-smooth act of falling forward and catching yourself repeatedly; doesn't exactly make it easy to aim).

There's a RAW argument for walkers retaining a combat/cruising, but there's also a RAW argument for them not ever accessing the chunk of the book that has those rules because "they move using the rules for infantry."

Wyldhunt wrote:
So I was about to write a post in support of the idea that:

*Walkers have combat/cruising speed by dent of being vehicles.

*That they follow the rules for moving as infantry, but that the rules for being infantry don't interfere with having combat/cruising speed and so that they would still have them.

*That walker transports, though immune to their own combat/cruising speed, would still convey the combat/cruising speed to their passengers.

But then I saw this:

* The walker rules specify that a walker can fire all of its weapons after moving, but they say nothing about what the walker's BS would be after doing so.

* The rules for shooting vehicles reference the vehicle's combat/cruising speed. Under the section about vehicles and relentless, it states that vehicles that moved combat speed (which is the only speed your average dreadnaught would be capable of as he can't move more than 6" without weirdness) can fire one weapon at full BS and all other weapons as snapshots.

SO. Based purely on the fact that we've all been firing both dread weapons at full BS, I'm inclined to say the stompa in question would not, in fact, have a combat/cruising speed and would therefore not affect the shooting of its passengers (the rules for fire points and open-topped don't say anything about modifying the shooting of units riding in transports that don't move "combat/cruising" speed. )

That said, I think this can be pretty safely chalked up as being one of those rules interactions that weren't really considered when the rules were written. There's no "right" answer. Personally, I think it makes more sense to impose combat/cruising limitations on the passengers of a walker (walking is, itself, a not-so-smooth act of falling forward and catching yourself repeatedly; doesn't exactly make it easy to aim).

There's a RAW argument for walkers retaining a combat/cruising, but there's also a RAW argument for them not ever accessing the chunk of the book that has those rules because "they move using the rules for infantry."

I think this convinced me as well. It defeats the RAI evidence I had for concluding the Combat / Cruising speed applied to SHW's. It still feels wrong to put Lootas in there and fire at full BS, but I think that is closest to RAW.

Using the backpage quick reference chart in the 40K rulebook that details the weapons a vehicle may fire itself when moving Walkers go:

Stationary: All
Combat: All
Cruising: N/A

By that logic, given that Combat has a number of weapons it may fire, and Cruising never applies. I'd make reasonable conclusion that if a walker is not Stationary, it therefore must be moving at combat speed, as the only section to reference those terms for a walker gives it those two options.

So if a Walker has moved, it seems logical to conclude it has done so at combat speed (since it clearly isnt stationary) and thus occupants would count as having moved at combat speed