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Spoilers I guess.


I finally got around to reading all the endtimes stuff, and when arachon fell in and the incarnates had the warp sphere of doom thing under control, WHY did mannfred shank teclis and basically ensure the destruction of the world and himself?

What was his motivation knowing that he would cease to exist? I thought he wanted power and to rule everything

Because GW needed to can the Old World... for whatever reasons.

Try not to dwell too much about it.

Because Sigmar ex machina, that's why.

Mannfred was a little boy in a man's game. Perpetually toyed with and frustrated in his efforts to garner power for himself, he wound up effectively deciding that if he couldn't have it, no-one could - and in doing so prevented the rift being closed.
That's my impression, anyway.
Not GW's best work though.

How could he have any expectation of surviving?

He was committing suicide when he did it and letting Chaos win, which is something that the Vampires were always opposed to.

I think it was a case of he couldn't win, so he'd rather take everyone wiith him.

Like I said, not the finest hour...

Maybe Mannfred ascension allowed him to see the truth behind Vlads betrayal of Nagash.

Manny wanted to betray Nagash on the realization that he would never grant true power to his followers, and he would be seen as the same lowly undead tool as everything else.

Quite an unseemly fate for a powerful vampire of noble blood.

Then again, I could be totally wrong.

Mannfred was his ego. It was everything to him. Nagash robed him of his land, all of his schemes and made him just another pawn in the Undead Hordes. THEN Betrayed him and gave him to the Elves. So when Mannfred got loose, he wasn't ever going to go back and work for Nagash. So when it came down to it, it was simple. If Chaos was defeated, Nagash won. He was by far the most powerful incarnate left. Mannfred would rather the world die then let Nagash win.

So in essence, Manny destroyed the world to spite Nagash.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Mannfred was his ego. It was everything to him. Nagash robed him of his land, all of his schemes and made him just another pawn in the Undead Hordes. THEN Betrayed him and gave him to the Elves. So when Mannfred got loose, he wasn't ever going to go back and work for Nagash. So when it came down to it, it was simple. If Chaos was defeated, Nagash won. He was by far the most powerful incarnate left. Mannfred would rather the world die then let Nagash win.

So in essence, Manny destroyed the world to spite Nagash.

I see. So it would not make sense for him to return in AoS since Nagash is the main leader of Death right?

I guess at the time Mannfred assumed that was it.
Can't even doom an existence to oblivion properly...

 VanHammer wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Mannfred was his ego. It was everything to him. Nagash robed him of his land, all of his schemes and made him just another pawn in the Undead Hordes. THEN Betrayed him and gave him to the Elves. So when Mannfred got loose, he wasn't ever going to go back and work for Nagash. So when it came down to it, it was simple. If Chaos was defeated, Nagash won. He was by far the most powerful incarnate left. Mannfred would rather the world die then let Nagash win.

So in essence, Manny destroyed the world to spite Nagash.

I see. So it would not make sense for him to return in AoS since Nagash is the main leader of Death right?

I wouldn't spend much time trying to make sense out of AoS.

Just crank up your suspension to disbelief to the max and put your Power Metal blasting the loudest possible. Then it will all make sense.

Dude's a jerk. A whiny little baby man.

 toasteroven wrote:
Dude's a jerk. A whiny little baby man.

I would tend to agree - they had quite a big lead up to the End Times with various developments in the previous Army Books - some of which were good - others I really disliked. I thought they changed his personality a bit as well - I preferred him as a devious but sardonic power player (that's how I depict him )

I also think as the old world disintegrated - so did Mannfred and his mind - as others have said he was out of his depth trying to play the game of nations with beings such as Vlad, Nagash and Neferata......he was repeatedly duped from the summoning of Nagash to being given to the Elves.

In AoS it does appear that Mannfred might have been brought back by Nagash (or another entity) to torment and torture in vengeance - which is quite Nagash like............it remains to be seen if any of the other elder Vampires/Tomb Kings come back...... Neferata and Khalida were together and some of the last beings to be enveloped by the Warp.............

It may be that anything linked to Nagash survives as long as he does.

Well in the current audiobook it seems that he was bought back we don't know for what reason. Nagash does state when Archaon beat him his Mortarchs carried his "broken" body to the underworld to hide it. (He is currently rising to release his vengeance on the thieves and chaos going by the recent audiobook)

It seems that in the audiobook mannfred wants to get into the underworld and see nagash for some reason. Hence why he is "helping" the stormcast with their mission to gain an audience with him.

Because the "ending" to the End Times was incredibly rushed. The End Times had just degenerated to utter gak by the time it was time to end the whole thing.

What's this artifact thing? Oh, so this was the whole point of the End Times- I don't remember any of the other books mentioning the artifact. What? Huh? Archaeon wants to destroy the world? Why? I thought he was conquering it... why is he destroying the world he just conquered? Wait, so the humans living in this city never discovered this artifact that could destroy the whole world that's just sort of sitting around under their city? Where's this artifact come from? What's it look like? What's it do? Why do ancient magical artifacts come with a timer? Why is this whole thing so incredibly non-specific?

Why couldn't, like, the party have befriended some sneaky goblin or human or elf or something to not join the battle and watch their backs instead? And like, the lookout would shout "eeek! It's a vampire!" and Mannfred would have been like "oh gak", and he'd immediately get killed and the party would have resumed the ritual and saved the whole world. Really, the Old World ended because Karl Franz and the gang couldn't have left someone guarding the rear? Oops. I guess everyone makes mistakes, huh.

From what I recall, Archaon wanting to destroy the world was forecasted well in advanced. Something about him discovering the truths about the Chaos Gods made him want to break all their toys (ie destroy the world)

Not sure about the other stuff, though. That's just one part I very distinctly remember.

Rihgu wrote:
From what I recall, Archaon wanting to destroy the world was forecasted well in advanced. Something about him discovering the truths about the Chaos Gods made him want to break all their toys (ie destroy the world)

Not sure about the other stuff, though. That's just one part I very distinctly remember.

But Archaon wanted to use the artifact to destroy the world himself in the first place. So he just did what Archie was planning all along. Well the most likely reason is that GW just pulled it from their behind to get AoS going.

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
Because the "ending" to the End Times was incredibly rushed. The End Times had just degenerated to utter gak by the time it was time to end the whole thing.

What's this artifact thing? Oh, so this was the whole point of the End Times- I don't remember any of the other books mentioning the artifact. What? Huh? Archaeon wants to destroy the world? Why? I thought he was conquering it... why is he destroying the world he just conquered? Wait, so the humans living in this city never discovered this artifact that could destroy the whole world that's just sort of sitting around under their city? Where's this artifact come from? What's it look like? What's it do? Why do ancient magical artifacts come with a timer? Why is this whole thing so incredibly non-specific?

Why couldn't, like, the party have befriended some sneaky goblin or human or elf or something to not join the battle and watch their backs instead? And like, the lookout would shout "eeek! It's a vampire!" and Mannfred would have been like "oh gak", and he'd immediately get killed and the party would have resumed the ritual and saved the whole world. Really, the Old World ended because Karl Franz and the gang couldn't have left someone guarding the rear? Oops. I guess everyone makes mistakes, huh.

There was not a lot left really - the Dwarf holds were destroyed, the Elven lands were gone - the empire was in ruins as were pretty much everywhere else that human civilisation had built, Lustria was a wasteland. There were a few pockets of humanity / undead left but the rest was already destroyed - in some ways its like the end of Stormbringer - they survivors are still fighting but they can't actually save their world......

IIRC the artefact was protected/hidden by Ulric and his flame - which was one of the reasons that Middenheim had been built and lasted the millennia. Its only Teclis that breaks all the old pacts and defences.....

Archaon has the whole angry child thing going on as he thinks Sigmar is a myth and a lie - he is pretty horrified to discover he is not and he could have been his champion.

The reset button gets pushed and Chaos Gods wonder off to see what else is happening elsewhere in the galaxy/universe/multiverse - they make a mental note to check back later to see if when the new world has matured a bit to see if its worth playing with.......and lo and behold it has...

 VanHammer wrote:
Spoilers I guess.


I finally got around to reading all the endtimes stuff, and when arachon fell in and the incarnates had the warp sphere of doom thing under control, WHY did mannfred shank teclis and basically ensure the destruction of the world and himself?

What was his motivation knowing that he would cease to exist? I thought he wanted power and to rule everything

 jonolikespie wrote:
How could he have any expectation of surviving?

He was committing suicide when he did it and letting Chaos win, which is something that the Vampires were always opposed to.

He didn't want to be in a world where he was enslaved by Nagash.
He thought that the Chaos Gods might reward him for his services, and they did in a sense.

Rihgu wrote:
From what I recall, Archaon wanting to destroy the world was forecasted well in advanced. Something about him discovering the truths about the Chaos Gods made him want to break all their toys (ie destroy the world)

Not sure about the other stuff, though. That's just one part I very distinctly remember.

Originally Archaon thought he discovered the truth of the human gods, that turned him to Chaos. The Chaos gods wanted the world destroyed and Archaon obliged.