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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 09:45:50
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Heroic Senior Officer
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The ones on the site are missing some things... but its mostly there I think.
It's not as crazy as warhammer, but since everything is toned down the differences are very noticeable.
If you like painting and modeling this game is awesome. All my units are dioramas which where a blast to make. I would say this is definitely a game for you if you enjoy models and even list building. I have made a lot of lists just to see what I can do.
http://kow2.easyarmy.com/
Have a look around on there, the pdf shows you all the rules and you can compare units and armies. It contains every mantic list to date. A lot of newer players love the night stalkers list because its very different from all the others in ways we have yet to see from mantic.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 10:39:16
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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lonestarr777 wrote:
Sarouan, the arguement that things in this game are generic because the power of imagnation is a terrible arguement.
Without imagination, fantasy worlds would never exist. So it's never a "terrible arguement". It may be something you're not sensitive to, however, and I would understand that.
No one is going to sit at the table and announce "So my wizard trained in the dark arts of necromancy hurls a flaming skull into your unit, as the cold fire burns and it explodes in a whail of the damned you take... *rolls* 5 wounds to their nerve."
Everyone will however "I'm chucking a fireball at your spearmen."
Depends with who you're playing.
In a tournament, time is important so I usually keep it simple.
With my friends, we usually take our time and thus like to fool a bit around. So I totally do that kind of thing when I play Lady Alessia de Sombrefosse as my main necromancer. Sure, she's "healing" her units in the end, but I like to describe her "raising the dead" when I use that generic spell. The effect in the end would be the same, anyway.
The fact there is zero variation on magic beyond what you picture in your head is just kind of sad. What does every Mantic wizard attend some third rate Hogwarts, thus why they all know the exact same kinds of spells?
Well, most spells usually fall in categories in terms of effect; damage dealing spells, buff spells, healing spells, curse spells, and so on. In the rulebook, you have the "main generic ones"; two damage spells, one short range and one "long range", one healing spell, one "buff" spell, one affecting movement of specific allied units and one who can "push" units around. Sure, they may add more, but I believe most of the difference, given the simplicity of KoW rules, wouldn't need so many spells to add actually.
The main difference between a damage spell using ice or fire, in terms of KoW rules, would ultimately be just about the visual effect. Like troops using axes, swords or maces, who care - it's all the same for KoW rules.
I understand why they do it, its easier to balance. But that is the only fashion that is a selling point. Telling me I need to write the flavor for an army for a company that wants my money is akin to buying a book and finding its only half written and I have to finish it myself.
You'd rather want a company telling you to buy character X with specific weapons and clothes or another saying "take the miniature you like most, as long as it is somewhat a mage, that's good in terms of rules"? The difference is that you have more place for imagination and creativity for the second than the first.
You can see it in Warmachine/Horde; all armies are looking the same, because rules say specifically what the miniatures must look like (and since there are a lot of named characters, you tend to see always the same miniatures). Sure, there are some nice conversions, but overall...well, it's just a difference in paint.
That's why I like KoW; it's generic, and thus my creativity has never been so stimulated for a very long time. I want to play a unit of She-werewolves with a necromancer and an arabian alchemist who is using his potions to make dead alive again? No problem, in terms of rules, it's the same. Just play the miniatures you like, use the adapted profiles and go!
Last but not least, if you want more details, nothing's preventing you to use fan rules - or others showed in magazines. As long as everyone is finding their pleasure, where's the evil?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/10 10:43:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 12:02:19
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Swastakowey wrote:The ones on the site are missing some things... but its mostly there I think.
It's not as crazy as warhammer, but since everything is toned down the differences are very noticeable.
If you like painting and modeling this game is awesome. All my units are dioramas which where a blast to make. I would say this is definitely a game for you if you enjoy models and even list building. I have made a lot of lists just to see what I can do.
http://kow2.easyarmy.com/
Have a look around on there, the pdf shows you all the rules and you can compare units and armies. It contains every mantic list to date. A lot of newer players love the night stalkers list because its very different from all the others in ways we have yet to see from mantic.
While I do enjoy painting and modelling... unit filler dioramas have never really been my thing. I actually like the aesthetic of a bunch of models ranked up marching in to battle (it's just WHFB in the most recent iteration became stupid with the sheer number of models you needed to play a typical game).
I love the way my hundred or so Night Goblins look ranked up in big blocks, even if they are only worth a few hundred points
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 12:02:56
Subject: Re:Kings of War and WHFB
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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The fact there is zero variation on magic beyond what you picture in your head is just kind of sad. What does every Mantic wizard attend some third rate Hogwarts, thus why they all know the exact same kinds of spells?
Well, most spells usually fall in categories in terms of effect; damage dealing spells, buff spells, healing spells, curse spells, and so on. In the rulebook, you have the "main generic ones"; two damage spells, one short range and one "long range", one healing spell, one "buff" spell, one affecting movement of specific allied units and one who can "push" units around. Sure, they may add more, but I believe most of the difference, given the simplicity of KoW rules, wouldn't need so many spells to add actually.
The main difference between a damage spell using ice or fire, in terms of KoW rules, would ultimately be just about the visual effect. Like troops using axes, swords or maces, who care - it's all the same for KoW rules
Check out the online fan-magazine Ironwatch. The issue below has fan-made expanded spell lists which add a lot more variety to spellcasting. I really like them.
https://ironwatch.wordpress.com/2015/10/03/ironwatch-magazine-issue-38/
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/10 12:04:26
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 12:44:23
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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Yeah that is a great find, I am all about the magic tracks now that I know about them
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/10 12:44:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 12:55:14
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Utilizing Careful Highlighting
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AllSeeingSkink wrote: Swastakowey wrote:The ones on the site are missing some things... but its mostly there I think.
It's not as crazy as warhammer, but since everything is toned down the differences are very noticeable.
If you like painting and modeling this game is awesome. All my units are dioramas which where a blast to make. I would say this is definitely a game for you if you enjoy models and even list building. I have made a lot of lists just to see what I can do.
http://kow2.easyarmy.com/
Have a look around on there, the pdf shows you all the rules and you can compare units and armies. It contains every mantic list to date. A lot of newer players love the night stalkers list because its very different from all the others in ways we have yet to see from mantic.
While I do enjoy painting and modelling... unit filler dioramas have never really been my thing. I actually like the aesthetic of a bunch of models ranked up marching in to battle (it's just WHFB in the most recent iteration became stupid with the sheer number of models you needed to play a typical game).
I love the way my hundred or so Night Goblins look ranked up in big blocks, even if they are only worth a few hundred points 
Sometimes being ranked up in neat little lines don't make sense, though. For example, zombies. Or berserkers. Or any unorganized soldiers (like skirmishers). In KoW I can put 100 swarming zombies in one giant base to represent a horde of zombies, like this:
Or I can model my pikemen in actual pike formations like the one below:
A unit diorama doesn't necessarily mean unit fillers.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/10 12:58:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 13:06:51
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Hacking Proxy Mk.1
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Personally I love the idea of being able to have terrain carry over from one rank of troops to the next, so that your battle line looks like a continuous line of natural terrain that isn't perfectly flat and featureless and doesn't require you to have very specific, almost OCD, orders to the men you have to rank up.
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Fafnir wrote:Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 13:20:11
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Clousseau
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So my question and hopefully basis for discussion: have others experienced this, and why do people keep stay so intensely with WHFB? The game is unsupported.
Pesonal preference.
Kings of War is a bad game to me. It highlights all of the things that I really didn't like about 7th edition WHFB and additionally adds things that I also really don't like, such as the way "nerve" is handled, models not leaving the table, and magic and wizards being very very generic and vanilla (note that doesn't mean I want broken magic, I just want something more than a glorified archer/buff machine that has some character)
If I had to choose between 8th and K.O.W the answer would be immediate that I'd rather play 8th 100x over Kings of War because I enjoy it more. It being "dead" is a non issue for me, and if it ever came down to there was only Kings of War to choose from I would exit the hobby.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/10 13:27:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 13:22:00
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Been Around the Block
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In terms of creativity, at least in my group is that everyone (yes everyone) playing KoW have painted armies or at least aspire to have it intensely. This is something that I have not witnessed in WHFB or 40k where the ¨great grey¨ is very common. Why this is can have many reasons but as one of our (previously) reluctant painter explained it ¨in KoW I complete regiments that I can bring to the table (he multibases), I do not have regiments anymore where 1/3 is grey that gave me a constant feeling of never being finished¨.
I see that many point here concerns the need/wish for more complex magic, items, skills etc. in KoW. To me (perspective) that was one of the main reasons why WHFB went ¨meh¨. My HE mage annihilated my friends Gutstar one to many times by a lucky purple sun. One roll and the game was over, no skill required and no bounce back effect what so ever. In KoW I have experienced that you can loose 50% of your army and still bounce back, the game stays interesting until the end.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/10 13:27:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 14:23:44
Subject: Re:Kings of War and WHFB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You also have to take into account old WFB gamers were used to the same game system (well, at least the core stayed pretty much the same) for quite a long time. It's always difficult to adapt yourself to another game mechanic, especially when you didn't play anything else at all.
Passion doesn't care about logic or rationality, after all. You're passioned or you're not, that's all.
People from WFB also have habits that are hard to forget. You can see when they post their battle reports with KoW that some of their tactics/moves are clearly coming from that GW game. It's always funny to see "rule lawyers" assuming things from KOW rules that actually come from their WFB old habits.
One of the questions that often pop up about KoW is indeed the way units are removed. They actually don't have HP like in others games, everything is about testing their morale. Thus, when they are removed, it doesn't mean they are always "destroyed"; the unit may have been routed, taken prisonner or effectively killed to the last. This is why you don't see models leaving the table because they're fleeing; it's actually handled in the way units are removed from the game.
Like in everything for KoW, details are to be interpreted by the players if they care about them.
About magic, yes, I know there are "fan rules" for more detailed spells. And they are indeed good...but I'm satisfied with the core right now. May be proposing them to my opponents in the future (because you always need your opponent's approval for that kind of things, of course  ).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/10 14:26:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 14:44:42
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Swastakowey wrote:lonestarr777 wrote: Swastakowey wrote:lonestarr777 wrote:This definitely has potential.
Now if only they could fix the 'hero speedbump' issue I have.
Not sure how many games you have played, but after a while you begin to work out how to defeat heroes who try annoy you or flyers etc.
Its common for a lot of new people to find:
Shooting OP
Flying OP
Heroes OP (especially flying heroes)
Ultimately all just require a bit of experience and then they aren't a huge problem. I think you will find heores eventually end up as anti ranged unit harasser later on... if that.
That's kind of why I find hero's to be bothersome. They aren't really worth it in the grand scheme of things. Even though say like the Troll King is really neat in theory. In concept he's just waiting for a big block of something bad to run him over.
Which kills the point of a hero for me. Now if say I could attach said Troll King to a unit of Cave Trolls I would find him to be less of a liability.
As it stands beyond providing an inspire bubble the heroes don't do much beside require babysitting.
Which is good, as in real life a small group of heroes should not take on hordes of people and do so well. But they can harass and disrupt. KOW is a game of units over individuals, individuals are there to aid units. If you want a game of beat sticks then I wouldn't even bother looking at KOW really. This is a game of units in a big way.
Regardless heroes still have a place. They are harder to be shot at, among the most mobile units in the game (they wont get attacked by anything unless you let them get attacked) and they go hand in hand with other units of combo charges too. Heroes also benefit from a huge selection of special rules that increase their power greatly such as blade of the beast slayer or wings of the honey maze. In mobility alone a hero will never need baby sitting, only a foolish opponent will try catch a hero that does not want to be caught. But only a foolish player will try use a hero to slay many on the field.
Heroes have their place but it's nothing like warhammer where they slaughter many foes or conjure huge storms of magic that can win games. They are there to aid the units who win the games.
Some heroes stand around (banners for example) but well what else do you expect a banner to do? Unless you give him hand grenades then he becomes a individual hunter or harasser as well as a banner.
Again, how many games have you played out of interest? I think after a few games with competent players you will find things arent as simple as they look in the book. Especially when you realize the power of mobility for example (a heroes most powerful weapon).
Also have you seen someones face when you hero has free reign to slaughter their war machines? Its very satisfying. Or when a hero valiantly gives his life to delay an enemy force winning you the game? Also very nice to see. Or when that hero finishes of a very badly damaged unit freeing up your other unit to do something useful? Heroes are well worth their points if you know how to use them and have space in your list for them.
This is coming down to personal taste in all honesty. If a hero is nothing but gorified skirmisher with an inspire bubble why don't I just take an actual unit of skirmishers?
A hero isn't a hero to me when he's skulking around the back looking for easy targets. The fact there are melee focused heros if their ment to be assasians and cheerleaders is just kind of eye rolling. "Look at this beatstick I paid points for! ... better hide him behind a block."
This is again, personal preference. I know how they function in game, buffers and assasains. But thats not something I dig.
I view heroes as an extenstion of me on the battlefeild and a chance to add personal character. The fact so many are just 'Meh, light cavalry does that too.' Is just not a selling point.
I've played about four games, and watched a few more, all with very competant and enthusiastic players who introduced our group to the game, as we borrowed their armies to play.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 17:11:56
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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AllSeeingSkink wrote: Swastakowey wrote:The ones on the site are missing some things... but its mostly there I think.
It's not as crazy as warhammer, but since everything is toned down the differences are very noticeable.
If you like painting and modeling this game is awesome. All my units are dioramas which where a blast to make. I would say this is definitely a game for you if you enjoy models and even list building. I have made a lot of lists just to see what I can do.
http://kow2.easyarmy.com/
Have a look around on there, the pdf shows you all the rules and you can compare units and armies. It contains every mantic list to date. A lot of newer players love the night stalkers list because its very different from all the others in ways we have yet to see from mantic.
While I do enjoy painting and modelling... unit filler dioramas have never really been my thing. I actually like the aesthetic of a bunch of models ranked up marching in to battle (it's just WHFB in the most recent iteration became stupid with the sheer number of models you needed to play a typical game).
I love the way my hundred or so Night Goblins look ranked up in big blocks, even if they are only worth a few hundred points 
If you like the look of massed blocks of troops, what's the special appeal of a game where you pull handfuls of those models off as a part of the game?
That's not intended as a dig, but an honest question.
Part of what I really like about the aesthetic of how KoW plays is that you have the massed blocks intact until they get wiped off the board. To me the look/feel of what started the game as massed unit being reduced to a rank or two of models on a movement tray by the end of the game doesn't work. It looks bad, it doesn't comport with historical accounts of how units behaved in combat, and it means you're pulling models you took the time to paint off the table. That you can model a whole unit en toto, perhaps to include a unit filler or other modeling choice, is just an added plus to me.
Valete,
JohnS
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Valete,
JohnS
"You don't believe data - you test data. If I could put my finger on the moment we genuinely <expletive deleted> ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around"
-Jamie Sanderson |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 17:15:11
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Posts with Authority
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jonolikespie wrote:doesn't require you to have very specific, almost OCD, orders to the men you have to rank up.
Dewd, Gripping Beast saxons; long horizontal spears; WAB Shieldwall; mixed saxon units (i.e. removing casualties from middle and shuffling up) - that alone convinced me that multibasing is the only thing for mass battles.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 17:31:55
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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Seems to me that KoW requires models to be removed as well, its just that its all at once. Why would it be an issue if it was some or all? A silly argument it would seem.
I would suggest that you chaps consider Warmaster. If you want massed battles, manoeuvre, a massive mix of troop types, warmachines and magic having noticeable but not over powering influence then this should cover all your needs. Heroes are about leadership with some combat influence too.
It also has both massed bases and partial unit removal, so a good compromise for the all or none brigade!
+ 10mm = easy to paint.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 18:41:16
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Heroic Senior Officer
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lonestarr777 wrote: Swastakowey wrote:lonestarr777 wrote: Swastakowey wrote:lonestarr777 wrote:This definitely has potential. Now if only they could fix the 'hero speedbump' issue I have. Not sure how many games you have played, but after a while you begin to work out how to defeat heroes who try annoy you or flyers etc. Its common for a lot of new people to find: Shooting OP Flying OP Heroes OP (especially flying heroes) Ultimately all just require a bit of experience and then they aren't a huge problem. I think you will find heores eventually end up as anti ranged unit harasser later on... if that. That's kind of why I find hero's to be bothersome. They aren't really worth it in the grand scheme of things. Even though say like the Troll King is really neat in theory. In concept he's just waiting for a big block of something bad to run him over. Which kills the point of a hero for me. Now if say I could attach said Troll King to a unit of Cave Trolls I would find him to be less of a liability. As it stands beyond providing an inspire bubble the heroes don't do much beside require babysitting. Which is good, as in real life a small group of heroes should not take on hordes of people and do so well. But they can harass and disrupt. KOW is a game of units over individuals, individuals are there to aid units. If you want a game of beat sticks then I wouldn't even bother looking at KOW really. This is a game of units in a big way. Regardless heroes still have a place. They are harder to be shot at, among the most mobile units in the game (they wont get attacked by anything unless you let them get attacked) and they go hand in hand with other units of combo charges too. Heroes also benefit from a huge selection of special rules that increase their power greatly such as blade of the beast slayer or wings of the honey maze. In mobility alone a hero will never need baby sitting, only a foolish opponent will try catch a hero that does not want to be caught. But only a foolish player will try use a hero to slay many on the field. Heroes have their place but it's nothing like warhammer where they slaughter many foes or conjure huge storms of magic that can win games. They are there to aid the units who win the games. Some heroes stand around (banners for example) but well what else do you expect a banner to do? Unless you give him hand grenades then he becomes a individual hunter or harasser as well as a banner. Again, how many games have you played out of interest? I think after a few games with competent players you will find things arent as simple as they look in the book. Especially when you realize the power of mobility for example (a heroes most powerful weapon). Also have you seen someones face when you hero has free reign to slaughter their war machines? Its very satisfying. Or when a hero valiantly gives his life to delay an enemy force winning you the game? Also very nice to see. Or when that hero finishes of a very badly damaged unit freeing up your other unit to do something useful? Heroes are well worth their points if you know how to use them and have space in your list for them. This is coming down to personal taste in all honesty. If a hero is nothing but gorified skirmisher with an inspire bubble why don't I just take an actual unit of skirmishers? A hero isn't a hero to me when he's skulking around the back looking for easy targets. The fact there are melee focused heros if their ment to be assasians and cheerleaders is just kind of eye rolling. "Look at this beatstick I paid points for! ... better hide him behind a block." This is again, personal preference. I know how they function in game, buffers and assasains. But thats not something I dig. I view heroes as an extenstion of me on the battlefeild and a chance to add personal character. The fact so many are just 'Meh, light cavalry does that too.' Is just not a selling point. I've played about four games, and watched a few more, all with very competant and enthusiastic players who introduced our group to the game, as we borrowed their armies to play. One individual is far more mobile than a skirmish unit, one man on a horse is even more mobile than a cavalry skirmish unit. What should then heroes do? In this game they buff, support and harass? What more should they do on top of this? Also skirmishers and cavalry do not keep your men in line, without heroes of some kind you will suffer. After All you need leaders for these huge armies to not fall apart and get disorganized (in this route faster). AllSeeingSkink wrote:While I do enjoy painting and modelling... unit filler dioramas have never really been my thing. I actually like the aesthetic of a bunch of models ranked up marching in to battle (it's just WHFB in the most recent iteration became stupid with the sheer number of models you needed to play a typical game). I love the way my hundred or so Night Goblins look ranked up in big blocks, even if they are only worth a few hundred points  You can still base them like that... it's just on one single base they are easier to move and manage. You can also make it more realistic by having terrain break the formation (or have them maraculiously perfect in rank) it's up to you. In terms of modeling this game gives you more options than Warhammer ever could. Want your goblins in perfect formation? Awesome you can. You dont even have to multibase (although its a vastly better way both gameplay wise and transport/ease of play wise). Really the only thing that matters is base size. When the limit is how much space the unit can take up, the options are almost endless.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/10 18:42:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 18:53:20
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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notprop wrote:Seems to me that KoW requires models to be removed as well, its just that its all at once. Why would it be an issue if it was some or all? A silly argument it would seem.
I would suggest that you chaps consider Warmaster. If you want massed battles, manoeuvre, a massive mix of troop types, warmachines and magic having noticeable but not over powering influence then this should cover all your needs. Heroes are about leadership with some combat influence too.
It also has both massed bases and partial unit removal, so a good compromise for the all or none brigade!
+ 10mm = easy to paint.
As a side note, you can play KoW with 10mm models, or 15mm, or 6mm, if you want to. It's one of the advantages of games based on regiments and not individual models.
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Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 19:26:25
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Swatakowey, I dunno, lead by example? Take command of a unit and lend their prowess and skill to a block of warriors?
If youre going to make the arguement that individual heroes being speed bumps is realistic then I'll counter with that no general or individual of importance took the field without a retinue.
This is a game about monsters and wizards, yet it's considered silly to think a hero can't carve a swath through regular mortal men?
I get the mechanics, yes I can't go hero-less without consequences. At the same time I don't see a reason to take more than a few cheap cheerleaders and that ultimately dissapoints me.
It's supoosed to be a HERO, not a skirmisher.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/10 19:27:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 19:31:46
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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Korinov wrote: notprop wrote:Seems to me that KoW requires models to be removed as well, its just that its all at once. Why would it be an issue if it was some or all? A silly argument it would seem.
I would suggest that you chaps consider Warmaster. If you want massed battles, manoeuvre, a massive mix of troop types, warmachines and magic having noticeable but not over powering influence then this should cover all your needs. Heroes are about leadership with some combat influence too.
It also has both massed bases and partial unit removal, so a good compromise for the all or none brigade!
+ 10mm = easy to paint.
As a side note, you can play KoW with 10mm models, or 15mm, or 6mm, if you want to. It's one of the advantages of games based on regiments and not individual models.
That of course is true of almost any Wargame hardly a USP or KoW.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 19:35:24
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Heroic Senior Officer
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lonestarr777 wrote:Swatakowey, I dunno, lead by example? Take command of a unit and lend their prowess and skill to a block of warriors? If youre going to make the arguement that individual heroes being speed bumps is realistic then I'll counter with that no general or individual of importance took the field without a retinue. This is a game about monsters and wizards, yet it's considered silly to think a hero can't carve a swath through regular mortal men? I get the mechanics, yes I can't go hero-less without consequences. At the same time I don't see a reason to take a few cheap cheerleaders and that ultimately dissapoints me. It's supoosed to be a HERO, not a skirmisher. Yes, but a hero is a leader first. When needed the hero can lend a hand to a unit or perhaps you have champions who skirmish and are not leaders? You Can use them as speed bumps (perhaps local hero was promoted by king, then tasked with a suicide mission as a speed bump) OR you can have them inspire/back up units in an attack. Units themselves already have their own leaders. I do think its very dumb when heroes cut through men, its very silly indeed. In real life a hero no matter the "power" would get walked over with ease. You don't see a reason because of a lack of experience. They have a huge amount of use. They just arent supermen... nothing in this game is though. This is a game about units and formations not monsters and wizards. They come as an after thought. My captain can be a skirmisher if I want, or he can lead. Why should he be restricted? It seems like heroes in this do MORE than in warhammer, they just dont slaughter a rank of men or more a turn like in warhammer. If you see this as a bad thing for cinematic reasons then I cant convince you other wise, if you think it makes them useless in the game well I can definitely say this is incredibly incorrect.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/10 19:40:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 19:48:38
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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notprop wrote:Seems to me that KoW requires models to be removed as well, its just that its all at once. Why would it be an issue if it was some or all? A silly argument it would seem.
I would suggest that you chaps consider Warmaster. If you want massed battles, manoeuvre, a massive mix of troop types, warmachines and magic having noticeable but not over powering influence then this should cover all your needs. Heroes are about leadership with some combat influence too.
It also has both massed bases and partial unit removal, so a good compromise for the all or none brigade!
+ 10mm = easy to paint.
I actually rather liked Warmaster quite a bit. Unfortunately, it never really seemed to catch on in my local gaming area. As a set of rules, I found the Warmaster rules to be quite good. Ironically enough, in terms of rules mechanics and philosophy Warmaster has a lot more in common with KoW than it does with Warhammer. But, hey, it has the immeasurable advantage of being a games workshop a product which means it is inherently acceptable to a certain segment of the gaming community to whom only GW products are worthy of being played.
It is a fair point to note that in KoW you are removing models, just all at one time. That said, however, it does avoid the problem of just a few models being left from a unit. In KoW, it is all or nothing which, in my opinion, has a much better aesthetic appeal. and as an aside, for those folks who are completely locked onto the idea of removing models, you could quite easily play KoW and track hits to a unit by removing models from the regiment. As long as you keep the unit on a movement tray with the correct size, there would be no problem taking models off to mark hits.
Valete,
JohnS
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/10 19:50:06
Valete,
JohnS
"You don't believe data - you test data. If I could put my finger on the moment we genuinely <expletive deleted> ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/10 22:08:29
Subject: Re:Kings of War and WHFB
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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It is a fair point to note that in KoW you are removing models, just all at one time. That said, however, it does avoid the problem of just a few models being left from a unit. In KoW, it is all or nothing which, in my opinion, has a much better aesthetic appeal. and as an aside, for those folks who are completely locked onto the idea of removing models, you could quite easily play KoW and track hits to a unit by removing models from the regiment. As long as you keep the unit on a movement tray with the correct size, there would be no problem taking models off to mark hits.
I never understood why people who argue about model removal don't see this. If you are so completely locked into the weird idea that the lack of model removal is a huge flaw in KoW (which is a whole type of weird gripe I can't wrap my head around), then it's so stupidly easy to remove models instead of counting "up" the wounds sustained by a unit- only units like Ogres where there are multiples of threes are things made moderately more difficult to remove models. Then it's just off to single monsters, heroes, and warmachines which in WHFB would accumulate wounds just like KoW anyway, they just have more than smaller numbers like two or three.
Model removal and the methods therin seems like such a strange roadblock to have with a game. I much prefer to have the figures that I spent lots of time painting stay on display on the table for as long as possible.
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"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 22:12:07
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Swastakowey wrote:lonestarr777 wrote:Swatakowey, I dunno, lead by example? Take command of a unit and lend their prowess and skill to a block of warriors?
If youre going to make the arguement that individual heroes being speed bumps is realistic then I'll counter with that no general or individual of importance took the field without a retinue.
This is a game about monsters and wizards, yet it's considered silly to think a hero can't carve a swath through regular mortal men?
I get the mechanics, yes I can't go hero-less without consequences. At the same time I don't see a reason to take a few cheap cheerleaders and that ultimately dissapoints me.
It's supoosed to be a HERO, not a skirmisher.
Yes, but a hero is a leader first. When needed the hero can lend a hand to a unit or perhaps you have champions who skirmish and are not leaders? You Can use them as speed bumps (perhaps local hero was promoted by king, then tasked with a suicide mission as a speed bump) OR you can have them inspire/back up units in an attack. Units themselves already have their own leaders.
I do think its very dumb when heroes cut through men, its very silly indeed. In real life a hero no matter the "power" would get walked over with ease.
You don't see a reason because of a lack of experience. They have a huge amount of use. They just arent supermen... nothing in this game is though.
This is a game about units and formations not monsters and wizards. They come as an after thought.
My captain can be a skirmisher if I want, or he can lead. Why should he be restricted? It seems like heroes in this do MORE than in warhammer, they just dont slaughter a rank of men or more a turn like in warhammer.
If you see this as a bad thing for cinematic reasons then I cant convince you other wise, if you think it makes them useless in the game well I can definitely say this is incredibly incorrect.
This really is boiling down to personal cinematic reasons. I'm a fan of Conan the Barbarian, Gotrek and Felix, and the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Where mighty individuals stand fast against scores of foes and cut their way to victory against the odds through might, skill and a touch of dumb luck.
I give no feths about real life when it comes to my gaming. I do not care that in reality about eight guys with spears would just surround Conan and walk towards him in a circle with the pointy ends aimed inwards. The wizard's and monster's of this game are far from an afterthought for me. Without them why am I even playing a 'FANTASY' game, I might as well break open some boring historical and recreate some battle between countless faceless and nameless roman legionaries and Hannibal's armies.
I just fail to understand why if blocks and units are so important that they even include individual heroes? Why not just put them in retinues of elite guard or some such? This is really just me nitpicking about one detail I don't like. I'm planning on fielding a king on a chimera to give me that Hero who gets gak done by himself in my army of Varangur. As well as a couple of Skald's to keep the line from breaking.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 22:17:38
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Heroic Senior Officer
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lonestarr777 wrote: Swastakowey wrote:lonestarr777 wrote:Swatakowey, I dunno, lead by example? Take command of a unit and lend their prowess and skill to a block of warriors? If youre going to make the arguement that individual heroes being speed bumps is realistic then I'll counter with that no general or individual of importance took the field without a retinue. This is a game about monsters and wizards, yet it's considered silly to think a hero can't carve a swath through regular mortal men? I get the mechanics, yes I can't go hero-less without consequences. At the same time I don't see a reason to take a few cheap cheerleaders and that ultimately dissapoints me. It's supoosed to be a HERO, not a skirmisher. Yes, but a hero is a leader first. When needed the hero can lend a hand to a unit or perhaps you have champions who skirmish and are not leaders? You Can use them as speed bumps (perhaps local hero was promoted by king, then tasked with a suicide mission as a speed bump) OR you can have them inspire/back up units in an attack. Units themselves already have their own leaders. I do think its very dumb when heroes cut through men, its very silly indeed. In real life a hero no matter the "power" would get walked over with ease. You don't see a reason because of a lack of experience. They have a huge amount of use. They just arent supermen... nothing in this game is though. This is a game about units and formations not monsters and wizards. They come as an after thought. My captain can be a skirmisher if I want, or he can lead. Why should he be restricted? It seems like heroes in this do MORE than in warhammer, they just dont slaughter a rank of men or more a turn like in warhammer. If you see this as a bad thing for cinematic reasons then I cant convince you other wise, if you think it makes them useless in the game well I can definitely say this is incredibly incorrect. This really is boiling down to personal cinematic reasons. I'm a fan of Conan the Barbarian, Gotrek and Felix, and the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Where mighty individuals stand fast against scores of foes and cut their way to victory against the odds through might, skill and a touch of dumb luck. I give no feths about real life when it comes to my gaming. I do not care that in reality about eight guys with spears would just surround Conan and walk towards him in a circle with the pointy ends aimed inwards. The wizard's and monster's of this game are far from an afterthought for me. Without them why am I even playing a 'FANTASY' game, I might as well break open some boring historical and recreate some battle between countless faceless and nameless roman legionaries and Hannibal's armies. I just fail to understand why if blocks and units are so important that they even include individual heroes? Why not just put them in retinues of elite guard or some such? This is really just me nitpicking about one detail I don't like. I'm planning on fielding a king on a chimera to give me that Hero who gets gak done by himself in my army of Varangur. As well as a couple of Skald's to keep the line from breaking. Because in real life leaders often rode/ran around the field directing and inspiring troops over the battle field. I think this game reflects that well. Your method of 2 banners + dragon is what I used to win my last tournament. I personally do this and pretend my leaders are running around directing things as they should but dont have them represented on the field. The dragon cannot take on units on his own despite his power, so he flanks and rear charges/threatens units big time while shrugging off damage. I have another list that has 3 heroes + a monster hero and it does really well as well. Just the heroes do not slaughter everyone. Whats the point in playing when all your men are just wound soakers to heroes? Again its all up to personal taste. If you want cinematic heroes then I wouldn't bother with the game and stick to warhammer. But I do assure you heroes in this are not useless.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/10 22:18:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/10 23:04:00
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Haughty Harad Serpent Rider
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, is there more to it than those free lists on the site? Because they don't look to have anywhere near the nuance that WHFB had.
Those are starter army lists based on Mantic's army boxes, so you can buy an army box, download the free rules and free starter list, and start playing, without having to purchase the rulebook.
For a better example of the breadth and depth of a normal army, the Twilight Kin free list is complete. It's at the very bottom and is just a hyperlink, because it's not in the main rulebook or Uncharted Empires.
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"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 01:28:35
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Hacking Proxy Mk.1
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Lonestarr, you do know that you can multicharge units and that your hero can run in alongside your unit to pack some extra punch without getting slaughtered in retaliation because he's trying to fight 40 guys alone right?
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Fafnir wrote:Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 02:01:04
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Regular Dakkanaut
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jonolikespie wrote:Lonestarr, you do know that you can multicharge units and that your hero can run in alongside your unit to pack some extra punch without getting slaughtered in retaliation because he's trying to fight 40 guys alone right?
... well I do now.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 02:02:25
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Heroic Senior Officer
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lonestarr777 wrote: jonolikespie wrote:Lonestarr, you do know that you can multicharge units and that your hero can run in alongside your unit to pack some extra punch without getting slaughtered in retaliation because he's trying to fight 40 guys alone right? ... well I do now. I don't want to sound rude but surely after playing 4 games and watching a few you witnessed a multi charge? Heroes still inspire after fighting a combat so it suits their support role to help their troops fight.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/11 02:02:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 02:17:50
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Hacking Proxy Mk.1
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lonestarr777 wrote: jonolikespie wrote:Lonestarr, you do know that you can multicharge units and that your hero can run in alongside your unit to pack some extra punch without getting slaughtered in retaliation because he's trying to fight 40 guys alone right?
... well I do now.
Ha
It basically works the same as having the character in the unit for the purposes of actually attacking, and it means your character's don't have to be skirmishers or stand behind the battle line, but when the counter charge comes they are standing next to your unit not a part of it.
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Fafnir wrote:Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 02:23:28
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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lonestarr777 wrote: Swastakowey wrote:lonestarr777 wrote:Swatakowey, I dunno, lead by example? Take command of a unit and lend their prowess and skill to a block of warriors?
If youre going to make the arguement that individual heroes being speed bumps is realistic then I'll counter with that no general or individual of importance took the field without a retinue.
This is a game about monsters and wizards, yet it's considered silly to think a hero can't carve a swath through regular mortal men?
I get the mechanics, yes I can't go hero-less without consequences. At the same time I don't see a reason to take a few cheap cheerleaders and that ultimately dissapoints me.
It's supoosed to be a HERO, not a skirmisher.
Yes, but a hero is a leader first. When needed the hero can lend a hand to a unit or perhaps you have champions who skirmish and are not leaders? You Can use them as speed bumps (perhaps local hero was promoted by king, then tasked with a suicide mission as a speed bump) OR you can have them inspire/back up units in an attack. Units themselves already have their own leaders.
I do think its very dumb when heroes cut through men, its very silly indeed. In real life a hero no matter the "power" would get walked over with ease.
You don't see a reason because of a lack of experience. They have a huge amount of use. They just arent supermen... nothing in this game is though.
This is a game about units and formations not monsters and wizards. They come as an after thought.
My captain can be a skirmisher if I want, or he can lead. Why should he be restricted? It seems like heroes in this do MORE than in warhammer, they just dont slaughter a rank of men or more a turn like in warhammer.
If you see this as a bad thing for cinematic reasons then I cant convince you other wise, if you think it makes them useless in the game well I can definitely say this is incredibly incorrect.
This really is boiling down to personal cinematic reasons. I'm a fan of Conan the Barbarian, Gotrek and Felix, and the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Where mighty individuals stand fast against scores of foes and cut their way to victory against the odds through might, skill and a touch of dumb luck.
I give no feths about real life when it comes to my gaming. I do not care that in reality about eight guys with spears would just surround Conan and walk towards him in a circle with the pointy ends aimed inwards. The wizard's and monster's of this game are far from an afterthought for me. Without them why am I even playing a 'FANTASY' game, I might as well break open some boring historical and recreate some battle between countless faceless and nameless roman legionaries and Hannibal's armies.
I just fail to understand why if blocks and units are so important that they even include individual heroes? Why not just put them in retinues of elite guard or some such? This is really just me nitpicking about one detail I don't like. I'm planning on fielding a king on a chimera to give me that Hero who gets gak done by himself in my army of Varangur. As well as a couple of Skald's to keep the line from breaking.
Lonestar, I just model those "hero" dudes into my units. Sure they don't get any special stats or anything, but my black orc champion is still leading his unit. My Orc General is doing what a General is supposed to do, command the army. And in those critical moments he can still charge in and get some.
The game is trying to have a sense of scale to your army. Your general and his little command group just fades a bit into the background next to his horde of orcs and goblins. Of course its totally fair not to like that too. Maybe warband sized games are just your thing, in which case you might want to check out Saga. It looks pretty cool and aims for handling small warbands.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 02:33:55
Subject: Kings of War and WHFB
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Swastakowey wrote:lonestarr777 wrote: jonolikespie wrote:Lonestarr, you do know that you can multicharge units and that your hero can run in alongside your unit to pack some extra punch without getting slaughtered in retaliation because he's trying to fight 40 guys alone right?
... well I do now.
I don't want to sound rude but surely after playing 4 games and watching a few you witnessed a multi charge?
Heroes still inspire after fighting a combat so it suits their support role to help their troops fight.
The guys who got us interested and who have been allowing us to play their armies as a demo for KoW play Undead, with a zombie dragon and necromancer, Herd, with some shaman, and Twlight Kin with some heroes I can't remember. In all the games I've gotten to play I was never aware I could just have a hero move right with another unit and charge with them. Multi-charge's have come up but not like that. Most heroes hung out in the back playing cheerleader, or speed bump. ><
All good points by the way Argonak, and I do intend to model some captains into a block. I'll have to take a look at Saga and see what it's about.
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