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My thread kinda got taken over by the discussion of "does Peircing transfer to magic items" so I'll just start a new one.

original post:

You have almost no inspiring, people with nearly no inspiring often do not place well in tournaments.

Inspiring is key to me winning my games (I play with a very tournament orientated group who help run tournaments).

I highly advise having inspiring. A scald is only 60 points and already has a throwing weapon.

Other than that I can see your list doing well.

I'd second getting someone with inspiring in there. That reroll can win or lose you a game, sometimes.

As mentioned, and repeated, Inspiring can make all the difference.

Not just for tournament play, you may want to get rid of one or two Troops, and get cheap Inspiring characters in their place.

But I would suggest trying it out both with and without the Inspiring - nothing makes the lesson sink in as well as watching your biggest and bravest turn tail and run.

(I play Undead... Undead without their characters is a bunch of scattered bones....)

The Auld Grump

I hate to say it AuldGrump, but I ALMOST feel like Undead were rendered moot by Empire of Dust. I would almost always rather run Empire with the majority of my undead models, then undead themselves. :-p

Meanwhile, I will semi-second everyone's Inspiring comment. I do feel like some players over-invest in it, but it is still very important. Most players parrot the old "One source of it per 500pts" which I think is very excessive depending on what that source happens to be. If you're talking models whose sole combat value is inspiring, I would say take no more than two at 2000pts. If possible you then might add a third or fourth if it comes on a platform that actively does work too (IE, Grokagamok for Ogres, etc...)

When I play someone who too literally follows the "one per 500pts" rule with four Army Standard Bearers running around, I usually just feel grateful that they didn't drop two to take something actually useful instead... or in some cases, enjoy them trying to make those ASB's act as speed-bumps, not having properly learned the rule about over-running individuals. :-p

Also, as other's have said... try not to rely too intensely on Troops. People prior to playing don't realize that troops, having taking even a meager 3 or 4 wounds, can already rout on average dice. Troops are meant as obstructions, or maybe opportunistic flankers, but will tend to roll over to a stiff breeze.

Incidentally, BBB, where are you located? I'm one of those people organizing US events like mad, so I wouldn't be shocked if you were coming to something i've been cooking up. :-p

Thanks, guys.

I'm in the Philly suburbs.

Ah. Not quite my region, but glad to hear people are working hard to organize more "official" KoW events all around the country. :-)

Good luck, and have fun.

Okay, I think I'll have to drop one Magus Conclave in order to make the mounted Skald work. Now I guess I need to pick a magic item to round out the points.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I hate to say it AuldGrump, but I ALMOST feel like Undead were rendered moot by Empire of Dust. I would almost always rather run Empire with the majority of my undead models, then undead themselves. :-p

Meanwhile, I will semi-second everyone's Inspiring comment. I do feel like some players over-invest in it, but it is still very important. Most players parrot the old "One source of it per 500pts" which I think is very excessive depending on what that source happens to be. If you're talking models whose sole combat value is inspiring, I would say take no more than two at 2000pts. If possible you then might add a third or fourth if it comes on a platform that actively does work too (IE, Grokagamok for Ogres, etc...)

When I play someone who too literally follows the "one per 500pts" rule with four Army Standard Bearers running around, I usually just feel grateful that they didn't drop two to take something actually useful instead... or in some cases, enjoy them trying to make those ASB's act as speed-bumps, not having properly learned the rule about over-running individuals. :-p

Also, as other's have said... try not to rely too intensely on Troops. People prior to playing don't realize that troops, having taking even a meager 3 or 4 wounds, can already rout on average dice. Troops are meant as obstructions, or maybe opportunistic flankers, but will tend to roll over to a stiff breeze.

Incidentally, BBB, where are you located? I'm one of those people organizing US events like mad, so I wouldn't be shocked if you were coming to something i've been cooking up. :-p

Heh, I tend to lean toward 'one source per two or three units - not including Troops'. The Empire of Men needs fewer, because of the greater radius.

Undead are a special case, for a long time I fielded my Necromancers and Army Standard Bearers in pairs, the ASB doubling as the Neccromancer's bodyguard. (Fluff wise, my undead army was a loose alliance of like minded individuals - think along the lines of 17th Century mercenaries, each with their own banners.... It also made it easy to plug and play different elements of my army - the Revenant Cav and the Mounted Necromancer with mounted ASB wearing the same colors.)

Undead vs. Empire of Dust... ... ... Empire of Dust just feels better to me, but Werewolves are so danged handy..... (Tempted to do a Herd army, just so I can use my Werewolves in another army.) I like both, but I have long been a fan of the Tomb Kings, which have not been well treated over the years.

The Auld Grump

I go for inspiring per group that fight together. My army, troops included never go without inspiring.

Usually it's 2-3 foot inspiring and 1 mounted in pure dedicated inspiring, then whatever else happens to have inspiring after (dragon for example).

IF I have the points these banners get something to make them more useful but it depends on the points situation.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I go for inspiring per group that fight together. My army, troops included never go without inspiring.

Usually it's 2-3 foot inspiring and 1 mounted in pure dedicated inspiring, then whatever else happens to have inspiring after (dragon for example).

IF I have the points these banners get something to make them more useful but it depends on the points situation.

It is fun to have a mounted ASB with a Breath Attack.... (Lead to a truly beautiful attack on a Dwarf Ironclad Horde... routed the bearded buggers, along with the two units of Revenant Cav that he was running with - which put the Revenant cav in position to flank another big dwarf unit. Incidentally - the revenant Cav are really some decent looking models, even if they are restic. )

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I go for inspiring per group that fight together. My army, troops included never go without inspiring.

Usually it's 2-3 foot inspiring and 1 mounted in pure dedicated inspiring, then whatever else happens to have inspiring after (dragon for example).

IF I have the points these banners get something to make them more useful but it depends on the points situation.

It is fun to have a mounted ASB with a Breath Attack.... (Lead to a truly beautiful attack on a Dwarf Ironclad Horde... routed the bearded buggers, along with the two units of Revenant Cav that he was running with - which put the Revenant cav in position to flank another big dwarf unit. Incidentally - the revenant Cav are really some decent looking models, even if they are restic. )

The Auld Grump

Im a personaly fan of the holy grenades. That on a mounted standard has won me 2 vital games which won me a tournament recently. A well placed shot that cemented position in the match.

Of course its not as reliable as breath attack... but when it hits it can hurt.

Some standard bearers have piercing, now that would be great to add diadem of dragon kind to...

TheAuldGrump wrote:It is fun to have a mounted ASB with a Breath Attack....

Swastakowey wrote:Some standard bearers have piercing, now that would be great to add diadem of dragon kind to...

Like the Varangur Skald, for example

(How I run mine in all but the tightest lists )

- Salvage

The skald has piercing because of the throwing axe. The piercing doesn't transfer to something else (like the diadem).

So should I keep the 2nd Magus Conclave or replace that with a mounted Skald too?

How useful are the Magus Conclaves?

 mattjgilbert wrote:
The skald has piercing because of the throwing axe. The piercing doesn't transfer to something else (like the diadem).

(FWIW that's how we've played it, after arguing one way and the other ...)

- Salvage

 mattjgilbert wrote:
The skald has piercing because of the throwing axe. The piercing doesn't transfer to something else (like the diadem).

Really? Where does it say this out of interest?

I assumed crushing strength and piercing are tied to the model not the weapon. EVen when you bane chant it mentions nothing about specific weapons.

Piercing: All ranged hits inflicted by the unit have a +(n) modifier when rolling to damage.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 mattjgilbert wrote:
The skald has piercing because of the throwing axe. The piercing doesn't transfer to something else (like the diadem).

Really? Where does it say this out of interest?

I assumed crushing strength and piercing are tied to the model not the weapon. EVen when you bane chant it mentions nothing about specific weapons.

Piercing: All ranged hits inflicted by the unit have a +(n) modifier when rolling to damage.

I had assumed that piercing was tied to the equipment, but reading the rules again, the specific weapon actually only ties to range. All units have their piercing value under special rules.

So while not intuitive, I believe that the diadem would stack with piercing. It would be interesting to give some high Peirce units the item, such as Ogre Shooters or Rifle Regiments.

 Polonius wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 mattjgilbert wrote:
The skald has piercing because of the throwing axe. The piercing doesn't transfer to something else (like the diadem).

Really? Where does it say this out of interest?

I assumed crushing strength and piercing are tied to the model not the weapon. EVen when you bane chant it mentions nothing about specific weapons.

Piercing: All ranged hits inflicted by the unit have a +(n) modifier when rolling to damage.

I had assumed that piercing was tied to the equipment, but reading the rules again, the specific weapon actually only ties to range. All units have their piercing value under special rules.

So while not intuitive, I believe that the diadem would stack with piercing. It would be interesting to give some high Peirce units the item, such as Ogre Shooters or Rifle Regiments.

Yes thats what I think too, it's definitely rules as written anyway unless im missing something.

In order for it to be worth while they would need less than 10 shots for the unit and also have less range. HOWEVER if you can find a ranged hero with high piercing then yes it can definitely be worth something. Might try finding one.

 Polonius wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 mattjgilbert wrote:
The skald has piercing because of the throwing axe. The piercing doesn't transfer to something else (like the diadem).

Really? Where does it say this out of interest?

I assumed crushing strength and piercing are tied to the model not the weapon. EVen when you bane chant it mentions nothing about specific weapons.

Piercing: All ranged hits inflicted by the unit have a +(n) modifier when rolling to damage.

I had assumed that piercing was tied to the equipment, but reading the rules again, the specific weapon actually only ties to range. All units have their piercing value under special rules.

So while not intuitive, I believe that the diadem would stack with piercing. It would be interesting to give some high Peirce units the item, such as Ogre Shooters or Rifle Regiments.

How can it stack? I think mattjgilbert explained it a bit poorly. The models have piercing, which can be explained because of their equipment (unless you want to tell me that Arquebusiers somehow hold their guns and give them piercing). So adding a magic item doesn't bestow that special rule onto it. The special rules are for the unit only, not add-ons. It's un-intuitive because it's wrong.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 mattjgilbert wrote:
The skald has piercing because of the throwing axe. The piercing doesn't transfer to something else (like the diadem).

Really? Where does it say this out of interest?

I assumed crushing strength and piercing are tied to the model not the weapon. EVen when you bane chant it mentions nothing about specific weapons.

Piercing: All ranged hits inflicted by the unit have a +(n) modifier when rolling to damage.

I had assumed that piercing was tied to the equipment, but reading the rules again, the specific weapon actually only ties to range. All units have their piercing value under special rules.

So while not intuitive, I believe that the diadem would stack with piercing. It would be interesting to give some high Pierce units the item, such as Ogre Shooters or Rifle Regiments.

How can it stack? I think mattjgilbert explained it a bit poorly. The models have piercing, which can be explained because of their equipment (unless you want to tell me that Arquebusiers somehow hold their guns and give them piercing). So adding a magic item doesn't bestow that special rule onto it.

Read the rule for Pierce, then tell me how you tell the difference between what gear has what rules?

Its pretty clear that unless it says certain attacks have X rules, you can use the models rules on any ranged attack as per rule? Lightning has pierce 1 as specified, so that attack gets pierce 1 (unless you bane chant) no matter what rules the model has. Breath attack is simply a ranged breath attack 10 and well piercing says all ranged attacks from the model get to use the pierce value.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 mattjgilbert wrote:
The skald has piercing because of the throwing axe. The piercing doesn't transfer to something else (like the diadem).

Really? Where does it say this out of interest?

I assumed crushing strength and piercing are tied to the model not the weapon. EVen when you bane chant it mentions nothing about specific weapons.

Piercing: All ranged hits inflicted by the unit have a +(n) modifier when rolling to damage.

I had assumed that piercing was tied to the equipment, but reading the rules again, the specific weapon actually only ties to range. All units have their piercing value under special rules.

So while not intuitive, I believe that the diadem would stack with piercing. It would be interesting to give some high Pierce units the item, such as Ogre Shooters or Rifle Regiments.

How can it stack? I think mattjgilbert explained it a bit poorly. The models have piercing, which can be explained because of their equipment (unless you want to tell me that Arquebusiers somehow hold their guns and give them piercing). So adding a magic item doesn't bestow that special rule onto it.

Read the rule for Pierce, then tell me how you tell the difference between what gear has what rules?

Its pretty clear that unless it says certain attacks have X rules, you can use the models rules on any ranged attack as per rule? Lightning has pierce 1 as specified, so that attack gets pierce 1 (unless you bane chant) no matter what rules the model has. Breath attack is simply a ranged breath attack 10 and well piercing says all ranged attacks from the model get to use the pierce value.

Matt's an admin over the KoW forum (and a member of the rules committee), and has already answered this question.

https://manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-rules-discussion/261916-faq-thanks

Post #11

Again, it's common sense. Why does a unit of Crossbowmen have Piercing, while Bowmen do not? Because of their equipment. Nothing about that would give an added magic item special rules.

"The special rules should have been written clearer to show what has the piercing. "

So in other words the special rules say one thing, while the writers say another?

It still looks like the rules say one thing while he says another.

Nowhere does it say equipment governs the rules, but the units type governs the rules. I mean look at the rule for piercing, it says all the UNITS ranged attacks, not the weapons ranged attacks. Seems very clear cut.

 infinite_array wrote:
Again, it's common sense. Why does a unit of Crossbowmen have Piercing, while Bowmen do not? Because of their equipment. Nothing about that would give an added magic item special rules.

Let's not get too snippy. One of the biggest selling points of KOW is that there is little, if any, gap between RAW and RAI. When a unit has a rule, and it's never stated that it is bestowed by equipment, and the rules goes out of it's way to say that all of that units attacks get the benefit, it's reasonable to interpret the rules as written.

I agree that "common sense" says otherwise, but the rules went further to de-link weapons and their rules than any game I've ever seen.

 Polonius wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:
Again, it's common sense. Why does a unit of Crossbowmen have Piercing, while Bowmen do not? Because of their equipment. Nothing about that would give an added magic item special rules.

Let's not get too snippy. One of the biggest selling points of KOW is that there is little, if any, gap between RAW and RAI. When a unit has a rule, and it's never stated that it is bestowed by equipment, and the rules goes out of it's way to say that all of that units attacks get the benefit, it's reasonable to interpret the rules as written.

I agree that "common sense" says otherwise, but the rules went further to de-link weapons and their rules than any game I've ever seen.

Except that they are still linked.

Go look at the Kingdom of Men's profile for Crossbowmen. It says, in the Special Rules, "Crossbow, Piercing(1), Reload!". Same for the Arquebusiers - "Rifle, Piercing (2), Reload!".

It seems fairly obvious that those units gain their Special Rules from their equipment. Same goes for Scout, who don't have Piercing unless they trade their bows for Pistols or buy Carbines. So, if I were to give them pistols, and then buy the Diadem for them, they would have a Breath (10), Piercing attack? And that makes sense?

Just to be clear im looking at the rules here over common sense.

Out of interest, how does the magic item that adds to a units piercing then effect units with multiple weapons?

Lets say a unit has pierce 1, they buy the pierce upgrade and now have pierce 2. Does this mean they get no pierce on their breath attack because they also have crossbows? Does bane chant not effect breath attacks because it adds to the piercing too? If piercing adds to a weapon not a unit then its technically impossible to add piercing to any other weapon through magic items or spells. It seems like you can only have 1 piercing special rule since everything to increase this adds to pierce.

Going by the rules alone I think it does make sense that rules are tied to units not gear. To me this makes sense, even if it doesnt translate in real life.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:
. So, if I were to give them pistols, and then buy the Diadem for them, they would have a Breath (10), Piercing attack? And that makes sense?

Yes because:

Piercing (n)
All ranged hits inflicted by the unit have a
+(n) modifier when rolling to damage.

Is breath attack a ranged attack? Yes
Does the unit have piercing? Yes

The answer is 100% yes.

Whoever mentioned "Lightning" and Bane Chant as an example is also outright incorrect. :-p Spells say they they are not effected by modifiers... bar a couple called out cases. As such, I am pretty sure you can't Bane Chant to improve Lightning, Fireball, etc... :-p

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Whoever mentioned "Lightning" and Bane Chant as an example is also outright incorrect. :-p Spells say they they are not effected by modifiers... bar a couple called out cases. As such, I am pretty sure you can't Bane Chant to improve Lightning, Fireball, etc... :-p

I thought that was in the "to hit section". For example having +1 to hit does not change the fact spells always hit on 4+.

"Spells always hit on 4+, and ignore all tohit
modifiers for ranged attacks, including
any modifiers from special rules. Note that
re-rolls (like the one provided by the Elite
rule), unlike modifiers, do apply."

"lightning Piercing (1) – roll to damage as normal."

Damage as normal and the fact that only ranged modifiers are mentioned seems like bane chant can effect damage spells?

Here:

https://manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-rules-discussion/246787-bane-chant-spells-and-magical-artifacts

The rules in this game are very clear most of the time.

The RC know that the way it's written means it looks like Piercing transfers. We'll add it to the next FAQ update.

Really ranged weapons should be written like this:

"Crossbows (with Piercing(1))". It wasn't done that way because it never came up before and nobody anticipated the issue either.