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Hi guys,

I've been playing since back in 5th, so they'll always be Imperial guard to me!

I'm thinking of starting up with Imperial Guard, I'm thinking the £100 box set, Cadian Force is where I'm most likely to start (already have a baneblade, but it's been "appropriated" by my blood angels as it was in use my renegade guard!)

How does the codex rate? I'm a pretty casual gamer, mainly write fluffy lists, but I'd like people's thought

what are the good points? bad points? how customisable are each squad etc?

thanks
Beard

Right now the guard are terrible.

Fun to play but terrible.


Here is a 70+ page thread on them.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/651867.page

They can do alright depending on how competitive your meta but generally speaking they aren't in the best spot right now. You have a slight update with the recent Mont'ka campaign but unfortunately it doesn't address the core issues with internal balance that the codex has and just gives a few cool new formations. (That and it requires a butt-ton of models to field).

Good points:

- Leman Russ chassis is durable against (most) long-ranged firepower, eradicator and the exterminator in particular got buffed in the new codex

- Wyverns are crazy cheap for what they do. They can clear light infantry out of line of sight like no other weapon since they are twin-linked with both shred and ignores cover. The amount of wounds they can put out can even threaten heavier infantry

- Veterans are still great, in fact they're cheaper than their previous incarnation, with the ability to take three special weapons per squad and three doctrines to boot (though you really only need one or two of said doctrines), carapace armour for only 3ppm, camo cloaks and defensive grenades or meltabombs for everyone and a demo charge? Don't mind if I do.

Bad points (ho boy there's a lot of them, but here are the glaring ones):

- orders system, although cool, is currently very inefficient with limited range and affected units, forcing you to blob up your units which works to your opponent's favour whether their CC-focused or just blasting you to bits with templates

- Leman Russes currently only have the Heavy special rule as a vehicle instead of their old Lumbering Behemoth rule, meaning that LRBT and any other variant that uses ordnance can only snapfire their other weapons, making them (with their high points cost) lose out on using their hull and side sponsons to their full effectiveness and largely limit most players to the other variants instead

- Everything is super fragile, even the tanks. With increasing availability of strength D and S6-7 spam in the current meta the guard's numbers and heavy armour aren't what they used to be. Mixed in with their lack of proper pricing, they have an uphill battle.

- Guard suffer from a lack of mobility, even with transports, in an edition that requires movement more than ever to capture objectives and catch up with the insanely mobile bike armies about nowadays and to avoid super-heavy-walkers.

- Internal balance is terrible, with several units never being used because of how they're either outdone by similar units in the army or from how overpriced they are. A good example of this is the hellhound, whose torrent flamer sounds great until you realize a Leman Russ Eradicator does a better job for less points and on a more durable (if less fast) chassis. This means that although there is a variety of choice, you'll more or less pick the same ones most games unless you want to play a more campaign or narrative based game.

Actually a few of Astro milwhosiwhatsits internal balance issues just got fixed or improved with the new fortifications. Artillery and psychers just got a huge boost, sentinels and flyers a small one, and some got small buffs if you own a ton of them (got five tanks? They're slightly better! WOOO!) or ass backwards buffs (hellhound got slightly improved because now he makes your veterans get better rules? Huh?)

Either way if you have an existing collection give those a look to see if you got any boosts.

If you take the detachment from imperial armour 1, you can upgrade the leman Russ vanquisher to be small blast instant death.

Perfect against tau.

the_scotsman wrote:
Actually a few of Astro milwhosiwhatsits internal balance issues just got fixed or improved with the new fortifications. Artillery and psychers just got a huge boost, sentinels and flyers a small one, and some got small buffs if you own a ton of them (got five tanks? They're slightly better! WOOO!) or ass backwards buffs (hellhound got slightly improved because now he makes your veterans get better rules? Huh?)

Either way if you have an existing collection give those a look to see if you got any boosts.

In order to use those you need to take the core detachment of 150 infantry or 8ish leman russes....

 Sledgehammer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Actually a few of Astro milwhosiwhatsits internal balance issues just got fixed or improved with the new fortifications. Artillery and psychers just got a huge boost, sentinels and flyers a small one, and some got small buffs if you own a ton of them (got five tanks? They're slightly better! WOOO!) or ass backwards buffs (hellhound got slightly improved because now he makes your veterans get better rules? Huh?)

Either way if you have an existing collection give those a look to see if you got any boosts.

In order to use those you need to take the core detachment of 150 infantry or 8ish leman russes....

No you don't. Like every decurion style formation, the auxiliary formations can be taken as standalone formation detachments.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Actually a few of Astro milwhosiwhatsits internal balance issues just got fixed or improved with the new fortifications. Artillery and psychers just got a huge boost, sentinels and flyers a small one, and some got small buffs if you own a ton of them (got five tanks? They're slightly better! WOOO!) or ass backwards buffs (hellhound got slightly improved because now he makes your veterans get better rules? Huh?)

Either way if you have an existing collection give those a look to see if you got any boosts.

In order to use those you need to take the core detachment of 150 infantry or 8ish leman russes....

You can use all of those formations without taking any of the core choices as you can use them outside the HotM detachment.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Actually a few of Astro milwhosiwhatsits internal balance issues just got fixed or improved with the new fortifications. Artillery and psychers just got a huge boost, sentinels and flyers a small one, and some got small buffs if you own a ton of them (got five tanks? They're slightly better! WOOO!) or ass backwards buffs (hellhound got slightly improved because now he makes your veterans get better rules? Huh?)

Either way if you have an existing collection give those a look to see if you got any boosts.

In order to use those you need to take the core detachment of 150 infantry or 8ish leman russes....

No you don't. Like every decurion style formation, the auxiliary formations can be taken as standalone formation detachments.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Actually a few of Astro milwhosiwhatsits internal balance issues just got fixed or improved with the new fortifications. Artillery and psychers just got a huge boost, sentinels and flyers a small one, and some got small buffs if you own a ton of them (got five tanks? They're slightly better! WOOO!) or ass backwards buffs (hellhound got slightly improved because now he makes your veterans get better rules? Huh?)

Either way if you have an existing collection give those a look to see if you got any boosts.

In order to use those you need to take the core detachment of 150 infantry or 8ish leman russes....

No you don't. Like every decurion style formation, the auxiliary formations can be taken as standalone formation detachments.

Spoiler:

Well done. Note where it does not say anything about only taking the formations in this detachment.

Yeah...you can take any of the formations of your choosing outside of the decurion. Those restrictions apply only if you plan on using it for the detachment and are going for the command benefits, but nothing is there to stop a guard player (or any other army really) from fielding an "emperor's wrath" formation in their battle forged army.

The key word here is IN THIS DETACHMENT. each of the auxiliaries that's classified as a FORMATION (emperors wrath yes, infantry platoon no, for instance) is available per the standard formation rules

Again, just like every single decurion released so far.

You lose out on the detachment benefits for the battlegroup but to be honest they're nothing to write home about.

If "emperors shield" was a standard infantry platoon then the detachment would be solid. As written it is terrible and there's no reason to use the battlegroup with tanks as it provides no benefit to tanks.

As with all GW releases the balance is bizarre. GW has no idea how much you should get for how much buy-in for formations.

People on the forum seem pretty anti fluff when it comes to the guard.

I play what i want-Korean war era IG!

Last time i played i was around 4 months ago and i was winning most games.

-Always take a vendetta or Valkyrie. Just its presence will throw off the enemy commander. The base Valkyrie is brilliant for crowd control with MRLs.
-The deathstrike missile is very under rated. If it's well hidden it can go off around two on a 4 plus (i think). a well placed shot can cripple any army.
-Wyvern Tanks are best for hordes. Just take them.
-Basilisks are amazing for long range support. I often knock out high value targets turn one just form it.

I don't use any form of LM tanks. I think their ugly and don't fit my fluff (i would rather use a SM predator for allies to fill that role or just take another vendetta).

Good luck!

 tau tse tung wrote:
People on the forum seem pretty anti fluff when it comes to the guard.

I play what i want-Korean war era IG!

Last time i played i was around 4 months ago and i was winning most games.

-Always take a vendetta or Valkyrie. Just its presence will throw off the enemy commander. The base Valkyrie is brilliant for crowd control with MRLs.
-The deathstrike missile is very under rated. If it's well hidden it can go off around two on a 4 plus (i think). a well placed shot can cripple any army.
-Wyvern Tanks are best for hordes. Just take them.
-Basilisks are amazing for long range support. I often knock out high value targets turn one just form it.

I don't use any form of LM tanks. I think their ugly and don't fit my fluff (i would rather use a SM predator for allies to fill that role or just take another vendetta).

Good luck!

Basilisks would be great if games were played on 20ft boards, but aside from that, They're just slightly cheaper LRBT's that are way easier to kill in most instances The problem with the Deathstrike is that you'd need it most really turn 1 or 2, which is when it's least likely to be useful, and is going to be a priority target before it can fire, and unfortnately the kind of firepower it throws around isn't even particularly special anymore.

Vaktathi has pretty much hit it, the Imperial Guard artillery is great..... Provided you are playing on a board the size of a small carpark. At these ranges the Basilisk can pound the enemy with near impunity as almost nothing else has the range to out down counter battery fire until it has walked through around eight to ten turns of being pounded. Likewise at these ranges the Deathstrike can also function well as everything is beyond its minimal range and very few things can shoot it back.
Sadly your average game of 40K is not played upon a carpark but upon a much smaller 6' by 4' game board where just about everything above basic rifle level starts within range of everything else. This means that the Basilisk is reduced to either firing a round or two indirectly before the enemy get within its minimal range (less if they get to go first) or has to expose itself to return fire and invariably gets pounded. As it costs more than some Leman Russ variants whilst having far less armour and potential firepower its presence on a standard game board is somewhat less than desirable.
Similarly the Deathstrike is incredibly easy to stunlock and take out and even if it is not destroyed before it fires the enemy will almost always have moved either within its minimal range or otherwise have gotten so close to your other units that it is impossible to place the blast in any meaningful way.

you came to the wrong place for non-biased "are they good" discussion

Outside of tournaments, they can be very fun. in tournaments, they are apparently not so good, but most of this depends on how competitive your local meta is.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Vaktathi has pretty much hit it, the Imperial Guard artillery is great..... Provided you are playing on a board the size of a small carpark. At these ranges the Basilisk can pound the enemy with near impunity as almost nothing else has the range to out down counter battery fire until it has walked through around eight to ten turns of being pounded. Likewise at these ranges the Deathstrike can also function well as everything is beyond its minimal range and very few things can shoot it back.
Sadly your average game of 40K is not played upon a carpark but upon a much smaller 6' by 4' game board where just about everything above basic rifle level starts within range of everything else. This means that the Basilisk is reduced to either firing a round or two indirectly before the enemy get within its minimal range (less if they get to go first) or has to expose itself to return fire and invariably gets pounded. As it costs more than some Leman Russ variants whilst having far less armour and potential firepower its presence on a standard game board is somewhat less than desirable.
Similarly the Deathstrike is incredibly easy to stunlock and take out and even if it is not destroyed before it fires the enemy will almost always have moved either within its minimal range or otherwise have gotten so close to your other units that it is impossible to place the blast in any meaningful way.

Question: which Leman Russ Variant is a Basilisk more expensive than? Just because last time I checked my codex it was actually 20 points less than the cheapest. And as for firepower, it's 30 points less than the usually compared-to large blast Russ and has one more point of strength even if you ignore indirect fire as an option.

Not saying it's good outside the new formation (with the new formation it's quite good as ignores cover large blast ordnance is quite gnarly) but you probably ought to do basic stuff like comparing costs before making assessments.

Deathstrike, no arguments, it is a worthless machine.

I completely disagree. If you hide the deathstrike well, Behind an ADL and equip it with camo gear it's excellent. Although s10 ap1 isn't great anymore it will easily destroy a good portion of most armies. Even vs smashfether it wiped out most of his bike brigade and put a good wound on him. I would say the turn 2 waiting time is definitely a fair trade off for the nuke it carries.

Some dubious rumors are looking for a new IG book in February...maybe hold out until then?

Guard are OK, depending on what you want to do. For competitive play theyre pretty bad (or so ive heard, dont play competitive). But with friends they are quite fun, especially with the Steel Host/ AC formations and rules!

another use for deathstrikes I've seen and will probably try out myself, is as a forced ultimatum on boards with good terrain

during deployment place it in some hidden corner out of sight, and on the opposite side of deployment from most other things you want to protect

now during the game the opponent has 2 choices, waiste a drop pod or several turns of movement to get to and kill the deathstrike (possibly not getting there in time for launch), or ignore it and just accept that you're going to get hit with 10" of death followed by tank shocking shenanigans... because why not?


its only 160pt, if they go after it that's 1-2 units that are removed from the main fight for a couple turns atleast, if they dont go after it you're probably getting your points back in that 1 shot (definately agree it should be str D tho, maybe even apoc barrage blast would be interesting, since it's single shot only anyways... and its an ICBM... was that mentioned somewhere? its a freaking ICBM... *sigh*)

 tau tse tung wrote:
I completely disagree. If you hide the deathstrike well, Behind an ADL and equip it with camo gear it's excellent.

At which point it's very expensive, there's still counters to it (drop pods coming in and getting meltaguns behind the ADL, other barrage weapons, etc), and it still ieither can't fire at all or stands a very strong chance of whiffing its roll on the turns you need it most.

Although s10 ap1 isn't great anymore it will easily destroy a good portion of most armies. Even vs smashfether it wiped out most of his bike brigade and put a good wound on him. I would say the turn 2 waiting time is definitely a fair trade off for the nuke it carries.

Against some things, it's very scary. It's also the priority target however. But against other things, it's increasingly less capable as invul saves, toughness increases, etc and the change in vehicles from relying on the damage table to HP's greatly mitigate its value.

It's not worthless, it's just so wildly variable in function and utility, and increasingly less appropriate to the output it was intended for, that it's really a long-shot crapshoot with a big payoff, not anything resembling a consistently performing capable workhorse.