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Astartes gene seed is supposed to only be compatible with teen/pre-teen aged people, right? However, I just started reading Descent of Angels, and Cypher is described as already being way past his prime, even starting to get cataracts, yet we know he becomes one of the Dark Angels. Same with Luther. How are these grown men able to join the ranks of their legions if they're already too old? Is that ever explained?

Simple... By killing the batman...

Nah, the older men don't have most of the Space Marine implants and all that. They do get altered to get more on par with them tho. They are not full Space Marines.

Luther never became an actual Space Marine. As you say, he was too old to become a Space Marine, but underwent as much of the surgeries as possible to become as close to an Astartes as a human deemed to old could get. The same processed was undertaken by Kor Phaeron.

Cypher is a tricky one as we don't actually know who Cypher is.

So what enhancements could they get? What couldn't they? I assume they are unable to grow gene seed.

Kor Phaeron had 2 hearts, so I guess that would be one of the normal ones.

Modern gene seed in 40k seems to only be able to bond with teenagers, however 30k gene seed doesn't seem to have that pre requisite, or at least doesn't seem to fail when bonded with older people, there of course is a cut off age, I'd imagine early twenties

I see no reason why they couldn't get most of the implants, particularly all of the redundant organs and most of the cool special organs. The main issue I see is the Ossmodula. This not only encourages uptake of some interesting dietary additives to strengthen bones, it also encourages the growth of the body's bones in the same way puberty does, but beyond what is normal. It's essentially controlled gigantism.

This is what gives space marines their height, and it is possible because the growth plates in an adolescent's long bones haven't solidified yet. When this excess of growth hormone occurs in an adult, you don't get any taller. Instead you get acromegally - distorted growth of other features like hands, feet, and face (because your other bones won't grow any longer), along with a host of other health issues.

This explains why Kor Phaeron's model has "platform shoes" and in my opinion is part of why Luther always had a chip on his shoulder - their bodies may have had all the same cool abilities as their brother marines, but they were always going to be a head shorter. (And in my own personal head-canon, they might not even get all the secondary organs either - it's the huge growth spurt that makes room for the extra organs, so some might get left out).

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:


This explains why Kor Phaeron's model has "platform shoes"

That is some attention to detail right there.

you've clearly not been paying attention to any of Cypher's monologues (or maybe you haven't even gone thirty pages into the book yet, that would also explain it), as the Lord Cypher himself explains that Cypher is not a name - it's a title. When one becomes Lord Cypher, he forfeits his true name for the title of Lord Cypher (guardian of the Order's, and subsequently the Dark Angels', most ancient traditions). I could spoil who Cypher actually is, but I won't. You'll have to read Fallen Angels for that one.

Also, most of the Knights on Caliban are in their teens due to the horrendous attrition rates that stem from fighting a planet's worth of lesser Daemons (you might notice that Nemiel and Zahariel were 15 when they became fully-fledged Knights of the Order), any who survive to adulthood are generally famous heroes, like Amadis or Luther, or battlefield commanders, like Sar Hadariel. These people become pseudo-Astartes (as evidenced by Fallen Angels), and only receive a limited array of implants. These implants include, but are not limited to:
- denser muscle tissues
- denser skin
- denser bones
- enhanced metabolism
- ability to go weeks without food or water

These are the ones that Sar Hadariel and Luther are cited as having in Fallen Angels and Descent of Angels.

Yeah keep reading the book, your question is answered within later chapters.

 Formosa wrote:
Modern gene seed in 40k seems to only be able to bond with teenagers, however 30k gene seed doesn't seem to have that pre requisite, or at least doesn't seem to fail when bonded with older people, there of course is a cut off age, I'd imagine early twenties

I don't even think that there is a problem with the Gene-Seed that prevents people in their 20s-30s from getting the gene-seed, I think it was a decision by the loyalists to just make use of the best teens. A teenager would be alot eaasier to indoctrinate into the Chapter Cult along with everything else, plus as their bodies are growing quite a bit more, they could have a higher rate of getting the best results. The one problem I can see now days is that some of them have started to deteriorate, so using someone more maliable might increase the success rates.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
I see no reason why they couldn't get most of the implants, particularly all of the redundant organs and most of the cool special organs. The main issue I see is the Ossmodula. This not only encourages uptake of some interesting dietary additives to strengthen bones, it also encourages the growth of the body's bones in the same way puberty does, but beyond what is normal. It's essentially controlled gigantism.

This is what gives space marines their height, and it is possible because the growth plates in an adolescent's long bones haven't solidified yet. When this excess of growth hormone occurs in an adult, you don't get any taller. Instead you get acromegally - distorted growth of other features like hands, feet, and face (because your other bones won't grow any longer), along with a host of other health issues.

This explains why Kor Phaeron's model has "platform shoes" and in my opinion is part of why Luther always had a chip on his shoulder - their bodies may have had all the same cool abilities as their brother marines, but they were always going to be a head shorter. (And in my own personal head-canon, they might not even get all the secondary organs either - it's the huge growth spurt that makes room for the extra organs, so some might get left out).

This is actually quite logical, and I think it's the best explanation.

All the rebels have short guy syndrome. RARR, Ez biga dan iz. I gona fix dat. They might as well paint themselves green.

Even Horus, cause he's comparing himself to Empy. Though he had short guy syndrome, before hand, comparing himself to the Emp and Sangy.

I expect that back then the progenoids where more adaptable. Seeing as the Emp would put them into spree killers, nut jobs and freaks. They still could be, but the mental tests are the main problem.

I always liked Ian Watsons version of finding a suitable body. They've micro tested enough people over the years that it doesnt matter. They know what will build the best marine. Its doubtful that the Emp had that info back then. He probably just stuffed bits in where ever they'd fit, ala Dr. Moraue

You could remove some of the intestines to make some room for some of the you beaut organ's. Instead of implanting the Ossmodula. If they even have regular digestive tracts left.

The only reason they want children is to psyko condition them. But then the Ultras seem to recruit a little later, just so they have the touch of family on them. Eitherway it doesnt seem to stop marines falling.

the ancient wrote:
Eitherway it doesnt seem to stop marines falling.

Except for the fact that 0.5% of all Space Marine Chapters are noted as having fallen to Chaos, this is quite true.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Astartes gene seed is supposed to only be compatible with teen/pre-teen aged people, right? However, I just started reading Descent of Angels, and Cypher is described as already being way past his prime, even starting to get cataracts, yet we know he becomes one of the Dark Angels. Same with Luther. How are these grown men able to join the ranks of their legions if they're already too old? Is that ever explained?

Because neither of them became Astartes?

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Modern gene seed in 40k seems to only be able to bond with teenagers, however 30k gene seed doesn't seem to have that pre requisite, or at least doesn't seem to fail when bonded with older people, there of course is a cut off age, I'd imagine early twenties

I don't even think that there is a problem with the Gene-Seed that prevents people in their 20s-30s from getting the gene-seed, I think it was a decision by the loyalists to just make use of the best teens. A teenager would be alot eaasier to indoctrinate into the Chapter Cult along with everything else, plus as their bodies are growing quite a bit more, they could have a higher rate of getting the best results. The one problem I can see now days is that some of them have started to deteriorate, so using someone more maliable might increase the success rates.

OK.

A big part of the Marination process is performed by hijacking the normal bodily processes of Puberty. That's why aspirants have to be in pre-teens, or early teens at the oldest, and that's why they have to be boys - if you did the same thing to a female aspirant, they would end up being effectively neutered males, and probably have even worse body dysphoria than all-male Marines.

There's also the fact that the only thing the gene-seed really does to the body itself is alter the body to reduce he probability of organ/implant rejection. Everything else is done by the implants. The real job of the gene-seed is to be collected in the progenoids, having gathered up samples from all the other implants so they can be regrown in vats prior to implanting in the next batch of recruits.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Modern gene seed in 40k seems to only be able to bond with teenagers, however 30k gene seed doesn't seem to have that pre requisite, or at least doesn't seem to fail when bonded with older people, there of course is a cut off age, I'd imagine early twenties

I don't even think that there is a problem with the Gene-Seed that prevents people in their 20s-30s from getting the gene-seed, I think it was a decision by the loyalists to just make use of the best teens. A teenager would be alot eaasier to indoctrinate into the Chapter Cult along with everything else, plus as their bodies are growing quite a bit more, they could have a higher rate of getting the best results. The one problem I can see now days is that some of them have started to deteriorate, so using someone more maliable might increase the success rates.

OK.

A big part of the Marinationprocess is performed by hijacking the normal bodily processes of Puberty. That's why aspirants have to be in pre-teens, or early teens at the oldest, and that's why they have to be boys - if you did the same thing to a female aspirant, they would end up being effectively neutered males, and probably have even worse body dysphoria than all-male Marines.

There's also the fact that the only thing the gene-seed really does to the body itself is alter the body to reduce he probability of organ/implant rejection. Everything else is done by the implants. The real job of the gene-seed is to be collected in the progenoids, having gathered up samples from all the other implants so they can be regrown in vats prior to implanting in the next batch of recruits.

Aw, I thought it involved passing the through eggs and then flour :c

 Furyou Miko wrote:

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Modern gene seed in 40k seems to only be able to bond with teenagers, however 30k gene seed doesn't seem to have that pre requisite, or at least doesn't seem to fail when bonded with older people, there of course is a cut off age, I'd imagine early twenties

I don't even think that there is a problem with the Gene-Seed that prevents people in their 20s-30s from getting the gene-seed, I think it was a decision by the loyalists to just make use of the best teens. A teenager would be alot eaasier to indoctrinate into the Chapter Cult along with everything else, plus as their bodies are growing quite a bit more, they could have a higher rate of getting the best results. The one problem I can see now days is that some of them have started to deteriorate, so using someone more maliable might increase the success rates.

OK.

A big part of the Marination process is performed by hijacking the normal bodily processes of Puberty. That's why aspirants have to be in pre-teens, or early teens at the oldest, and that's why they have to be boys - if you did the same thing to a female aspirant, they would end up being effectively neutered males, and probably have even worse body dysphoria than all-male Marines.

There's also the fact that the only thing the gene-seed really does to the body itself is alter the body to reduce he probability of organ/implant rejection. Everything else is done by the implants. The real job of the gene-seed is to be collected in the progenoids, having gathered up samples from all the other implants so they can be regrown in vats prior to implanting in the next batch of recruits.

Sorry but that's categorically not true, we have had plenty of novels with aspirants who are teenagers, not pre teens, we also have examples of adults who can be turned into space Marines.

Gene seed also works on clones, so while I agree it most likely works best on teens and pre teens, they are not the only ones that can be turned.

 Formosa wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Modern gene seed in 40k seems to only be able to bond with teenagers, however 30k gene seed doesn't seem to have that pre requisite, or at least doesn't seem to fail when bonded with older people, there of course is a cut off age, I'd imagine early twenties

I don't even think that there is a problem with the Gene-Seed that prevents people in their 20s-30s from getting the gene-seed, I think it was a decision by the loyalists to just make use of the best teens. A teenager would be alot eaasier to indoctrinate into the Chapter Cult along with everything else, plus as their bodies are growing quite a bit more, they could have a higher rate of getting the best results. The one problem I can see now days is that some of them have started to deteriorate, so using someone more maliable might increase the success rates.

OK.

A big part of the Marination process is performed by hijacking the normal bodily processes of Puberty. That's why aspirants have to be in pre-teens, or early teens at the oldest, and that's why they have to be boys - if you did the same thing to a female aspirant, they would end up being effectively neutered males, and probably have even worse body dysphoria than all-male Marines.

There's also the fact that the only thing the gene-seed really does to the body itself is alter the body to reduce he probability of organ/implant rejection. Everything else is done by the implants. The real job of the gene-seed is to be collected in the progenoids, having gathered up samples from all the other implants so they can be regrown in vats prior to implanting in the next batch of recruits.

Sorry but that's categorically not true, we have had plenty of novels with aspirants who are teenagers, not pre teens, we also have examples of adults who can be turned into space Marines.

Gene seed also works on clones, so while I agree it most likely works best on teens and pre teens, they are not the only ones that can be turned.

Really? You mind citing examples of said adults becoming Space Marines? Maybe give a source?

 Formosa wrote:
Sorry but that's categorically not true, we have had plenty of novels with aspirants who are teenagers, not pre teens, we also have examples of adults who can be turned into space Marines.

Gene seed also works on clones, so while I agree it most likely works best on teens and pre teens, they are not the only ones that can be turned.

Thirteen and fourteen is enough to categorise you as a teenager. Who were they? Because Ragnar was probably fourteen, if that's who you're thinking of.

Remember that 'pre-teen' means 'anything before the thirteenth birthday' - although we often think of eleven and twelve year olds as being 'sort of teenagers' these days because they go to big kid school.

Sources on adults, please, because yeah, half the point of this thread is that the marinated adults (yes, @Dark, that was deliberate :p) weren't true Space Marines.

As for clones, do you know how you make a clone? You create a baby then age it rapidly. Of course gene seed "works" on clones - they're being genetically manipulated for their entire creation process! Unless you're trying to say that fully grown adult clones get suddenly turned into Marines post-decanting with no preparatory work in vitro.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Modern gene seed in 40k seems to only be able to bond with teenagers, however 30k gene seed doesn't seem to have that pre requisite, or at least doesn't seem to fail when bonded with older people, there of course is a cut off age, I'd imagine early twenties

I don't even think that there is a problem with the Gene-Seed that prevents people in their 20s-30s from getting the gene-seed, I think it was a decision by the loyalists to just make use of the best teens. A teenager would be alot eaasier to indoctrinate into the Chapter Cult along with everything else, plus as their bodies are growing quite a bit more, they could have a higher rate of getting the best results. The one problem I can see now days is that some of them have started to deteriorate, so using someone more maliable might increase the success rates.

OK.

A big part of the Marination process is performed by hijacking the normal bodily processes of Puberty. That's why aspirants have to be in pre-teens, or early teens at the oldest, and that's why they have to be boys - if you did the same thing to a female aspirant, they would end up being effectively neutered males, and probably have even worse body dysphoria than all-male Marines.

There's also the fact that the only thing the gene-seed really does to the body itself is alter the body to reduce he probability of organ/implant rejection. Everything else is done by the implants. The real job of the gene-seed is to be collected in the progenoids, having gathered up samples from all the other implants so they can be regrown in vats prior to implanting in the next batch of recruits.

Sorry but that's categorically not true, we have had plenty of novels with aspirants who are teenagers, not pre teens, we also have examples of adults who can be turned into space Marines.

Gene seed also works on clones, so while I agree it most likely works best on teens and pre teens, they are not the only ones that can be turned.

Really? You mind citing examples of said adults becoming Space Marines? Maybe give a source?

Wolf at the door horus heresy story.

Thje space marines leadership of the 13th company of the space wolves would have been 35 at the youngest when they became space marines.

These where guys who fought for Russ for 20 years before the arrival of the emperor.

Pure first generation geneseed plus the fact the emperor who made it was about and mankind's science was more advanced in its understanding.

Very different to 40k 10,000 year hand information, degradation and limited understanding of things vs the great crusade. Geneseed is not the same as it was, some glands do not work, others are unreliable.

Geneseed may have been far more capable of bonding with a adult when it was pure and free of long term damage and mutation.

In descent of Angels it actually states that Luther isn't a true Astartes, because he was too old.

 jhe90 wrote:
Pure first generation geneseed plus the fact the emperor who made it was about and mankind's science was more advanced in its understanding.

Very different to 40k 10,000 year hand information, degradation and limited understanding of things vs the great crusade. Geneseed is not the same as it was, some glands do not work, others are unreliable.

Geneseed may have been far more capable of bonding with a adult when it was pure and free of long term damage and mutation.

Which would explain why the Emp was able to shove it into just about anyone. But conversely maybe everyone back then was missing a organ or 2. In the rush to churn them out. I just didnt matter so much, because there was more of them and life expectancy was sfa. Marines should've kept the kill yourself, to bomb a choke point of Horus rising.
Back in the day it was shove bit's in just about anything that was even close to compatible. The current day method, is prep the mind first. We can do that best if their fragile little minds can be hit asap. Its a bit like footy try outs. Get them thinking they're the best, unbeatable.

the ancient wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Pure first generation geneseed plus the fact the emperor who made it was about and mankind's science was more advanced in its understanding.

Very different to 40k 10,000 year hand information, degradation and limited understanding of things vs the great crusade. Geneseed is not the same as it was, some glands do not work, others are unreliable.

Geneseed may have been far more capable of bonding with a adult when it was pure and free of long term damage and mutation.

Which would explain why the Emp was able to shove it into just about anyone. But conversely maybe everyone back then was missing a organ or 2. In the rush to churn them out. I just didnt matter so much, because there was more of them and life expectancy was sfa. Marines should've kept the kill yourself, to bomb a choke point of Horus rising.
Back in the day it was shove bit's in just about anything that was even close to compatible. The current day method, is prep the mind first. We can do that best if their fragile little minds can be hit asap. Its a bit like footy try outs. Get them thinking they're the best, unbeatable.

The idea does fit, how legion so massive, you just recruit anyone who is compatable and you just get them in training, gene seeded and combat ready soon as possible.

Also space wolves train via massive computers feeding info in. That way you can speed up training by directly putting legion 101.

godkingl wrote:Wolf at the door horus heresy story.

Thje space marines leadership of the 13th company of the space wolves would have been 35 at the youngest when they became space marines.

These where guys who fought for Russ for 20 years before the arrival of the emperor.

Oh. Space Wolves.

The 13th Company all went Wulfen, incidentally, which is what happens when someone has a bad reaction to the implantation process and devolves into a clawed, fanged, barely-sentient beast.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

godkingl wrote:Wolf at the door horus heresy story.

Thje space marines leadership of the 13th company of the space wolves would have been 35 at the youngest when they became space marines.

These where guys who fought for Russ for 20 years before the arrival of the emperor.

Oh. Space Wolves.

The 13th Company all went Wulfen, incidentally, which is what happens when someone has a bad reaction to the implantation process and devolves into a clawed, fanged, barely-sentient beast.

From what I remember of the Ragnar novels not all of them did that. Most of them seemed to be pretty much the same as most Space Wolves not counting the "alive since the Heresy and didn't know what the Inquisition was thing."

I think anyone can become a space marine. During the great crusade the Emperor wanted more faster, so the process was used to turn grown men into marines. However, there are more complications with adults. Adults are less likely to accept the changes, and IIRC there might have been issues with geneseed corruption, which would have become a major concern after the heresy. That's the reason modern chapters prefer initiates to be younger. There is also the fact that the Emperor hasn't really been around to supervise for about 10,000 years, which is a really long time, and the process has likely become more ritualized and less understood. It could be that the knowledge required to convert adults with any degree of success has been forgotten, or it might even be considered a blasphemous perversion of the ritual.

I recall in the Ragnar books that he is also quite old when he is taken (at least a teenager), he is already a formidable warrior and there is mention of a lover. I believe the space wolves take their initiates a bit older than other chapters, which might also be why they have a relatively poor success rate.

I always was annoyed by what seems to be a plothole in 40k lore. However I often think there's some excuse GW might drum up if they were pressed hard enough (besides ret-conning).

I always just thought that the rules for teens isn't o much biological but rather they are the best candidates to indoctrinate. Old habits die hard, so get them when they're young.
For those older fellows one can argue that they already possessed the sort of material Space Marines wanted...that or they had special treatment either medically or had certain procedures waived.

That, or at least some were just "honorary Space Marines".

On the topic of Russ' warriors who became Space Wolves, didn't something like 92% of them die? Which was evidently a surprisingly low number, given the Emperor's surprise.

EDIT: Plus the humans of Fenris have weird genetic shenanigans going on, don't they?