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Hi, I had a quick question on using the space marine skyhammer annihilation formation (the one with devastators and assault marines).

The rules aren't currently available from Games Workshop, so does this mean I'll not ever be able to legally allowed to play it at tournaments? Many require official rules :(

Which seemed a shame as it seemed like quite a fun one to try (if quite powerful, but powerful is more acceptable in tourneys!)

Thanks for any replies

I'm pretty sure that if you print out a good quality version of it that you'll be fine. Really depends on how strict the tournaments are when it comes to how "official" it has to be, since realistically speaking it being so limited means that there's going to have to be some form of copy.

Thought as much - I guess it's a bit dubious then. I think I'll not bother with it then just to avoid any controversy. I can imagine some players kicking up a fuss.

It's just so annoying to have a formation that is (in theory) only restricted to the hundred or so people who actually bought the web bundle. It seems dumb to have rules in the game that are completely out of reach for new players joining!

It's not a limitation anyone pays attention to.

Tournaments should have their own copy that they can reference to make sure you are using the formation correctly.

It is completely unreasonable and absurd to request someone produces a piece of paper from an over priced web exclusive formation to be able to use said formation.

I just use print outs from blood of kittens.

I think the old "rules in hand" issue is mostly back when you had your codex and maybe forgeworld rules so it wasn't difficult to expect people to source their rules materials. With GW doing limited releases on certain rules (which strikes a nerve for a lot of people concerned about "pay to win") a lot of people would rather everyone have the same access to rules instead of just the few 100 people who happened to have money on hand to scoop up the bundle for the day or two it was available.

Same thing as with the Void Shield, nobody expects somebody to have a 100% genuine GW void shield model when they made so few of them and they were only on the GW store for a day or so.

Check with the individual tournament organizer beforehand if you can. However the entire "limited edition" thing rubbed the community at large so badly that only the really up tight (and the sore losers) actually complain about them being "official". Most people don't like the Skyhammer for an entirely different reason (it's so cheese).

It is pretty powerful... that's one of the reasons I feel a bit bad using it without the official rules.

Thanks for all the opinions, I guess I can always check with tournament organisers before heading there if I do fancy having a go with it!

 DoomMouse wrote:
It is pretty powerful... that's one of the reasons I feel a bit bad using it without the official rules.

Thanks for all the opinions, I guess I can always check with tournament organisers before heading there if I do fancy having a go with it!

Play against Eldar a few times. All your guilt goes away.

Haha, to be fair the main reason I wanted it was to use a few grav cannons to counter wraithknights - those things don't die easily!

 DoomMouse wrote:
Haha, to be fair the main reason I wanted it was to use a few grav cannons to counter wraithknights - those things don't die easily!

If by not easily, you mean only with grav, I agree.

You still have to do 6 wounds on 3+ with FNP he gets. It actually moderate on difficulty still.

TuddFudders wrote:
You still have to do 6 wounds on 3+ with FNP he gets. It actually moderate on difficulty still.

Grav cannons with grav amps reroll the wounds. That's an 89% rate. But yes, there is FNP, too.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/280663.page

Moved to YMDC


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Konrax wrote:
Tournaments should have their own copy that they can reference to make sure you are using the formation correctly.

It is completely unreasonable and absurd to request someone produces a piece of paper from an over priced web exclusive formation to be able to use said formation.

To be honest, I don't think it's at all unreasonable for tournaments to expect people to have the appropriate rules for the units they choose to use. It's not like you're forced to use this formation in order to put together a legal army.

Given the extreme limited nature of the 'official' rules in this case, though, if I was running a tournie I would be more inclined to just not allow it to be used and save potential drama.

The official PDF that was sent to people via email who ordered this bundle is available online.

Oddly this PDF is transferable and also oddly enough does not have the usual legal jargon on it about copyright and for personal use only.

There are way too many limited run, currently unavailable rules in the game these days. The Skyhammer Formation isn't the only one.

There are entire units that were limited release and aren't currently available for sale. The various campaign boxes that are no longer available for sale are perfect examples. Orks, Space Wolves, Tyranids and Blood Angels all have 'game legal' units that you can't actually go buy rules for right now. Tau Empire and Space Marines will have unit rules going out of print as soon as the Warzone Damocles boxes sell out.

If someone told me that I couldn't play this formation I'd ask them to show the proof of purchase of their models. All I know they could be Chinese recasts?

gungo wrote:
The official PDF that was sent to people via email who ordered this bundle is available online.

Oddly this PDF is transferable and also oddly enough does not have the usual legal jargon on it about copyright and for personal use only.

Almost like it was intentional.

Generally, TOs and opponents won't mind so long as you have a good, clear print out of the rules, or a good, clear PDF with you on a tablet. Some TOs may get sniffy, so just ask before hand if uncertain though.

A dude at my local shop actually purchased it, and has the rules laminated and all prettified. He goes apey if anyone else at the store plays skyhammer, even if he's not involved in the game. He goes out of his way to tell them they don't own it and can't use it. It got pretty heated one day. Fantastic entertainment.

 deviantduck wrote:
A dude at my local shop actually purchased it, and has the rules laminated and all prettified. He goes apey if anyone else at the store plays skyhammer, even if he's not involved in the game. He goes out of his way to tell them they don't own it and can't use it. It got pretty heated one day. Fantastic entertainment.

Sounds like a winner.

As long as you have a copy, I don' care where you got it from. Anyone who pays for the majority of the codexes today are wasting their money.

If a tournament is allowing formations, then there's no real RAW justification why the skyhammer annihilation force would be an "illegal" option if you don't have a nice PDF printout of it. GW has pretty much recused themselves from the tournament scene, so what is "legal" is in the eye of the TO. Skyhammer is perceived as an overly strong formation by some, so they might ban it for game balance purposes (I personally think it's fine).

 deviantduck wrote:
A dude at my local shop actually purchased it, and has the rules laminated and all prettified. He goes apey if anyone else at the store plays skyhammer, even if he's not involved in the game. He goes out of his way to tell them they don't own it and can't use it. It got pretty heated one day. Fantastic entertainment.

He must be super fun to play with. What would happen if someone had unpainted or... *gasp* proxied models?

 deviantduck wrote:
A dude at my local shop actually purchased it, and has the rules laminated and all prettified. He goes apey if anyone else at the store plays skyhammer, even if he's not involved in the game. He goes out of his way to tell them they don't own it and can't use it. It got pretty heated one day. Fantastic entertainment.

That guy is my hero!

Seriously, what would we get to if anyone who hadn't paid for this ridiculous formation could use it willy nilly? It'd be like people parking in handicapped spaces and invading private golf courses without legitimation.

 Stephanius wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
A dude at my local shop actually purchased it, and has the rules laminated and all prettified. He goes apey if anyone else at the store plays skyhammer, even if he's not involved in the game. He goes out of his way to tell them they don't own it and can't use it. It got pretty heated one day. Fantastic entertainment.

That guy is my hero!

Seriously, what would we get to if anyone who hadn't paid for this ridiculous formation could use it willy nilly? It'd be like people parking in handicapped spaces and invading private golf courses without legitimation.

I'm hoping this is a joke. Limited edition models are fine. Limited edition rules are not. Super-expensive limited edition rules are even less so.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
A dude at my local shop actually purchased it, and has the rules laminated and all prettified. He goes apey if anyone else at the store plays skyhammer, even if he's not involved in the game. He goes out of his way to tell them they don't own it and can't use it. It got pretty heated one day. Fantastic entertainment.

That guy is my hero!

Seriously, what would we get to if anyone who hadn't paid for this ridiculous formation could use it willy nilly? It'd be like people parking in handicapped spaces and invading private golf courses without legitimation.

I'm hoping this is a joke. Limited edition models are fine. Limited edition rules are not. Super-expensive limited edition rules are even less so.

They weren't super expensive if you didn't own the models already.

Also, I agree. Handicrippled people should have to park in the back of the lots. After all, we have to walk. They get to ride in wheelchairs.

I don't really have a problem with the cost. A high cost just adds insult to injury. The injury is that the rules are only available to a limited number of players.

Imagine that I am a new player with infinite funds. I go to Games-Workshop.com, BlackLibrary.com and ForgeWorld.co.uk and buy every rule book I can find. I also download the iOS White Dwarf app and purchase every available back issue. I spend months reading all of this material and absorbing every rule. I become a walking encyclopedia of Warhammer 40k. I should be able to walk into any organized event, review the tournament house rules and know the rules for every model in the place. Right?

Wrong. Some of the 'current' rules aren't available to me and may never be through legal sources.

This is what I object to. I object to a system that means only certain players are allowed to buy rules if they're in the right place at the right time.

The funny thing is, if you buy one of these packages, the rules don't add anything to the cost of the models.

The Tidewall Counterstrike Cadre limited edition package with exclusive rules is $465 which is the exact cost if you bought the models individually so there is 0 cost associated with the rules PDF.

So if anyone argues that they paid for those rules and you didn't, you can turn around and say you paid the exact same cost as them for the rules!

Personally I would be fine with a printed pdf or scan as long as it's easily readable.

What tournaments do is up to them, and if you are in doubt, contact the T.O. and ask.

I know some tournaments have started demanding the player bring original rules after instances of pirated .pdf codexes being altered to have the wrong stats in them.