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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 02:19:04
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Penal battalions exist, which means Imperial and military prisons exist.
In the BL book "Commissar" (for all its eccentricities), it's shown that prisons can be very large indeed, as big as cities.
But my question is, seeing as looking cross eyed at your sergeant can get you flogged and then shot, who exactly populates the prisons?
Everything from theft to incompetence is punishable by death, Commissars have absolute authority to rearrange your face into the wallpaper, so what crimes warrant doing time?
As a secondary question, what is the court martial procedure in 40K? Is it stated anywhere?
And whilst that may stand for officers, who commissars the commissars? If higher ups screw up, what happens then, and how do those trials run, if it's covered?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 03:13:41
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Terrifying Rhinox Rider
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They are called "courts martial," but sure.
There is one in Necropolis.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 03:34:14
Subject: Re:Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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probably people to useful to kill, so they put them into something like the last chancers, you get one shot at absolution, with a 99 percent chance to die.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 03:38:17
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster
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There is a blue billion ways to end up in prison, from having the unlicensed publications, to theft, to any number of things. The people is on one world something might not be a crime or it might even be 'encouraged'. On one world killing someone for snoring would be a slap on a wrist, while on another forgetting the 23rd word of the Emperor's Prayer at supper will get you shot at the dinner table. Even Commissars who have supreme authority have different standards of what gets a slap and what gets you shot.
Court Martials are just as varied. Some are very serious that seriously weigh all the evidence, and others...well there is an Inquisitor that stamps guilty at the start of the trial and throws people in contempt of court (and executes) those that say they are innocent.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 04:38:14
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
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KingmanHighborn wrote:There is a blue billion ways to end up in prison, from having the unlicensed publications, to theft, to any number of things. The people is on one world something might not be a crime or it might even be 'encouraged'. On one world killing someone for snoring would be a slap on a wrist, while on another forgetting the 23rd word of the Emperor's Prayer at supper will get you shot at the dinner table. Even Commissars who have supreme authority have different standards of what gets a slap and what gets you shot.
Court Martials are just as varied. Some are very serious that seriously weigh all the evidence, and others...well there is an Inquisitor that stamps guilty at the start of the trial and throws people in contempt of court (and executes) those that say they are innocent.
Finally, someone who gets that the Imperium isn't just one monolithic entity with the same policy towards evyerthing
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To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote:There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 07:51:26
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Battleship Captain
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The Imperium theoretically is. Local laws aren't.
There is a corpus of 'high law' called Lex Imperialis, which is what the Adeptus Arbites exists to enforce, and which is supposed to be the same the galaxy over. By and large, it is.
It covers stuff like the Imperial Tithe, control of Psykers, and the safety and legal primacy of the Adeptus Terra over local institutions. Essentially it's the Imperium's 'federal law'.
Petty stuff like Murder (of non Adeptus Terra personnel, anyway), Theft, and stuff like that are crimes which are legislated against on a world by world basis and policed by local magistratum to whatever extent the planetary governor can be bothered to arrange. As long as it doesn't impact the running of the world from the Imperium's perspective, they don't care who does it or to what extent.
There are worlds where the Arbites do it directly - places like sector or segmentum capitals, for example, because essentially everything and everyone on the planet is Adeptus Terra directly or at one remove, so any meaningful transgression is a "Crime Against The Imperium" within the Arbites remit.
Penal Battalions/Courts Martials are the same. A Commissar or Senior Officer has full authority to have you shot if you do....well...essentially anything they don't like. But they don't necessarily want to.
If it's on a battlefield and they don't have time to evaluate the case or to process you correctly, then it's Bolt Round, Mars Pattern, To The Face, One.
But if it's....I dunno....smuggling? One stupid night's AWOL on a mustering world that's not "In The Face Of The Enemy"...then yes, you're probably being sentenced to death. But if said sentence can benefit the Imperium, that is a better use of your worthless life.
So if there's time to arrange it, you can be 'executed' by being transferred to a penal battalion that's sent into suicidal situations again and again, or put in a prison encampment that will work you to death - slowly - to maintain a world's industrial output.
You're still not getting away alive, and you'd probably, with cold hindsight, have preferred a quick and relatively painless death.
Commissars have levels of seniority (hence the 'lord commissar' and 'commissar-general' titles). In theory a commissars authority is more or less absolute, but if there is a reason to sanction one, a panel of their peers and superiors will be convened. This happens in the Ciaphas Cain novel "The Traitor's Hand", I believe.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/11 07:51:56
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 09:04:19
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Fixture of Dakka
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The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer has a list of offences and punishments. Not all of the latter are death (although a lot are). There's a lot of floggings, too.
One would expect a commissar, even of the dairy variety, to be aware of such regulations.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/11 09:05:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 11:45:32
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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There's also a list of crimes and punishment in the arbitors dark heresy book. I think it was called "judgment" or something like that.
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His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 14:42:04
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Thanks for the answers! Apologies for my brevity, I'm using a phone to try and post.
pelicaniforce wrote:They are called "courts martial," but sure.
There is one in Necropolis.
You got me, I'm dyslexic and I've no idea how to pluralise that expression.
AndrewGPaul wrote:The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer has a list of offences and punishments. Not all of the latter are death (although a lot are). There's a lot of floggings, too.
One would expect a commissar, even of the dairy variety, to be aware of such regulations.
I think I may have phrased the question poorly. I was not intending to ask the definition/types of crimes in the Imperium, but rather which crimes as a guard or citizen would land you time in jail rather than being killed outright.
Considering the non shooting punishments list floggings, I don't think any of the primer examples are survivable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 19:03:33
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Buttery Commissar wrote:I think I may have phrased the question poorly. I was not intending to ask the definition/types of crimes in the Imperium, but rather which crimes as a guard or citizen would land you time in jail rather than being killed outright.
Considering the non shooting punishments list floggings, I don't think any of the primer examples are survivable.
Floggings are generally survivable. It will of course depend on the person carrying out the sentance, the number of strikes and the instrument used, but in most cases floggings were meant to teach a lesson but not kill the convicted.
From the military side of it, it will also vary widely depending on who your CO is. On the ground the commander/commisar has almost uncontested power, so if he/she thinks that you can be "rehabilitated" for taking an extra share of rations with a simple beating then you can walk away with a black eye. In the same situation, if your unit was starving, then you will be the 'one less mouth to feed'
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 19:26:08
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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It's not guardsmen that end up in the prisons. Like you said, commissars are pretty strict. It's more Imperial Citizens.
It will depend on how strict the world with regards to who is shipped off to a nearby prison planet or what-not. So it could range from petty thieves to hive gangers to dangerous killers.
Another source of prisoners is recently subjugated worlds that had risen in rebellion against the Imperium. We see this is second Eishenhorn book.
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Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 19:47:28
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Guard end up in prisons, Bottle. Last Chancers and many penal battalions are founded on that concept.
If it didn't take such gross liberties with fluff, I'd also cite Commissar.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 19:56:36
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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Fair enough! I must not be clued up enough. I always thought the penal legions were made up of criminals from imperial planets, not from delinquent soldiers.
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Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/11 21:15:07
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Back in the day, it was non-payment of library fines and accidental errors on your tax returns that got you a life sentence in the penal legions (deliberate tax avoidance was, of course, a capital offence).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/12 03:22:49
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Buttery Commissar wrote:
Everything from theft to incompetence is punishable by death, Commissars have absolute authority to rearrange your face into the wallpaper, so what crimes warrant doing time?
Not quite true.
Commissars have total authority and have the power to pass whatever judgement they see fit for any crimes that come their way. Up to and including summary execution. But most commissars are relatively reasonable individuals. They know that if they executed every minor offender there would be nobody left to fight. So they do make the punishments fit to the crime in question, and they'll go with past behavior and their gut feeling. Steal some food, its a few lashes and half rations for you. Continue to steal food and you might get made an example of to prove a point. Some crimes will of course warrant immediate execution for obvious reasons.
A Commissar might also determine that a criminal deserves prison time. Collective punishment also seems to be a thing in 40k as well. Entire regiments sometimes are guilty of some crime, and executing them would be troublesome and a waste of resources. They can still do some hard labor in a mine somewhere, its after all a crime and sin to waste the Emperor's resources and human lives are part of that.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/12 07:48:30
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Stalwart Ultramarine Tactical Marine
California
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Read Last Chancers, goes into your question pretty heavily.
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"Flame, hammer and blood – so is meteoric iron worked, so were the Heavenfall Blades tempered. So too shall I test the Unforgiven."
— Cypher
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/12 10:50:52
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Grey Templar, I was admittedly taking extreme examples as truth, there. I mean for every commissar that shoots a guard for losing his primer, there's likely two who don't, but 40K is presented as the worst of humanity fairly often.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/12 23:18:29
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Confessor Of Sins
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As said things vary between worlds and army regiments. Reading the Last Chancers books will give you some idea about the penal unit system as Colonel Shaeffer uses it to get things done. He selects condemned soldiers from prison with an eye on their skills and willingness to risk their lives, and the reasons those soldiers are there are quite varied. Sgt Kage is in for killing an officer, for example - not in battle but in a drunken fight over a woman. One guy is in for refusing an order to retreat in battle, which sounds pretty odd...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/12 23:22:50
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Per the Last Chancers Omnibus, a number of Guardsmen who get conscripted by Schaeffer, end up sitting in jail until such a time that Schaeffer is ready for them.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/13 16:45:06
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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 Looks like my reading list has a new entry. Awesome sauce.
I actually use Last Chancers as figures in my army, never got the books out though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/13 16:52:49
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch
avoiding the lorax on Crion
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In storm of iron, the guardsman main character is caught sleeping during a alarm. Pretty serious, but they basically get some pretty cold, boring, and punishment duty manning a survayer station.
Not light, but punishment like hard or boring duties exist. Say go dig a latrine pit, go man the cold, boring outer perimeter bunker, not serious to warrent death as no enemy about.
Ernough to get punished
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Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/13 17:41:19
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Dakka Veteran
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Battle field punishments mostly are a quick bolt round to the head.
If your not on the front line. You could be sentenced by local laws, guard laws or if bad enough, by the Imperium.
Think of it like Ye olde England.
50 people might steal a loaf of bread and you might hang 1 or 2 or 5.
Some get locked up for 1 year. Some for 20. Some get deported to Australia. Examples must be made. The law likes to keep people guessing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/24 02:22:46
Subject: Crimes & Punishments? (And court martials)
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I would guess that, fluff-wise, local laws determine who goes to prison unless Imperial law (or an Imperial dude like an Inquisitor) is involved and bothers to interfere.
Courts-martial events differ by circumstance- you're not going to have a fussy trial by court-martial, A Few Good Men -style when your city is besieged- in war time a court-marital can change to summary sentences, which may include execution. In periods of desperation there is no time for lengthy bureaucracy or litigation.
An Imperial Guard regiment training in a peaceful world might have things run differently than when on a world where Chaos is overunning your cities.
And like others have said, there is open interpretation about the whims of those in charge. If someone can and wants to just have you shot then he likely will. No surprise that GW wants all that left out for us to make up as we write our own stories.
A commissar doesn't screw up, he's either right or the case is quietly buried. I've never come across any lore that stipulates that commissars answer for their actions, any commander would just dismiss it as being a bit too eager to serve the Emperor and leave it at that.
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