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"Sexualized" is in the eye of the beholder. Catachans are a Tom of Finland fantasy (look it up, I'm not going to describe it on a gaming forum ).

In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

That fate based thing they already have?
also that they are T3.

I think sisters are already quite different then marines. When you consider that there is space in the lineup for red/grey/blue/silver/spiky/etc marines, they have more then enough to distinguish themselves.

They are the masters of the close range firefight. They have a number of specialist units. Army specific special rules (AoF). I did prefer the version of faith where you started with a number based on faithful units, spent from that pool, and got more back when sisters were martyred. Made the army start strong, as your initial faith brought you to battle, the crisis of faith in the middle, where you had spent most of it, were mostly mauled, but not martyred yet, and then the heroic final stands where the survivors pulled out some miracles at the end, avenging their sisters.

I think at the core, power armored sisters are in a pretty good spot. It’s all the other stuff in the codex that could use a little work. If things like repenta and penitent engines were more viable, you would see a lot more of the crazed zealot side of the army on the table. There are a lot of things that could be looted from marine lists, but the more you do that, the less distinct the army gets. Same for the guard. The eclisiarchy is crazy rich and influential. If there is hardware they need/want, fluff-wise they should be able to get it. If I could add one new thing it would be mobs of faithful rabble.

I completely agree with Nevelon's headline point: Sisters are already distinct. I quibble only with the idea of having a Faith Point pool based on quantity of Faith-producing units in the list. That could use revision. Thematically, Acts of Faith are most dramatic when they come into play against the odds. Faith, after all, is what the Sisters rely upon at their core, when all else fails.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Hybrid, we will leave this topic discussion alone then, suffice to say I feel we got a good discussion and it was, to my perceptions, handled fairly maturely especially given the subject matter. Thank you kind Sir or Madam for an enjoyable internet discussion with me that didn't devolve horrendously, those seem rare nowadays looking at many comments sections on the internet.

Thanks to you too .

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Also is that one of your models that you painted? It looks good, I used that model as my sister superior for my retributor squad, minus the flames on her power pack of course.

Thanks, it is, and I use it for the very same purpose . Great mind think alike.
The backpack is all thanks to me starting the army early, back when one could order any separate part from any model from GW. I got one of those for each of my Sister Superior (except the one to which I added a cape) and one with just one big flame in the middle for my canoness (old sculpt, which I like a lot more than the new one).

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
So if they do re-release plastic sisters how do you guys feel about tanks like the exorcist? Would you want them to make a plastic pipe organ top piece or re-design the tank to perhaps look more like a missile platform?

Definitely pipe organ for me. And I would love to see them get tons of crazy thinks like this.

 drunken0elf wrote:
Came here to read about people thoughts on why GW too slowed to remake SoB and it now became :

10% people actually discussing ops question
[…]
to respond to the real question :

its obvious […]

The problem with the original question, and the reason why there is so much of topic, is that just like you say, we can only state the obvious. None of us has any inside sources in GW, so we are stuck with “They do not think it will give them loads of money” (which is not exactly a big reveal) and we have no idea why they think so, we have no sales figure, we have no basis to check if they are right or wrong on that, or even if it's the real reason…

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Oh, lol. I thought it was pretty obvious from the stuff on the table around it and the comment about firing that it was clay. ^^; Sorry.

I was not sure what firing meant. ESL.

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

Faith powers, frateris milita/redemptionists to go along with priests as crazy zealous civilans-turned-murdering-maniacs, crazy machines like the exorcist but more crazier.

Money, backlash from SJWs, lack of skill with female models?

 Brennonjw wrote:
backlash from SJWs

Honestly, I'll never understand that one. And I think this whole paranoia is pretty recent too…

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

1. Don't mess with the holy trinity of weapons: adding plasma and grav and lascannons just because reasons.
2. Faith has to be an integral part of the army: don't make it random (hurr moar dice) and make it scale with list size.
3. Make our CC units functional: Repentia and Pengines should be legitimate choices.

But this is god-tier wishlisting. If GW revisits the Sisters, they'll butcher them.

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

Overall I think they are just different enough to be outside the realm of "Just another marine army" but if I was to start getting greedy I would say perhaps we get some unique weapons. Maybe one unique weapon for each weapon of the holy trinity and one unique melee weapon. Perhaps some sort of flail with the burning ashes of a revered SoB in it. For each unsaved wound caused in combat with it the user and any allied SoB model in combat with her get a bonus for that round? I'd also like to see new priest models, I'm not a fan of the current offerings from GW and think they could design a much more interesting space priest model. I'm not a fan of the current AoF system, it's ok but it takes some bookkeeping and it just doesn't feel epic enough. The systems described above me sound more fun with a total tally at the beginning and then more at the end as your sisters are martyred. Any idea how to get that out of being an MSU spam tactic though?

 Manchu wrote:
I completely agree with Nevelon's headline point: Sisters are already distinct. I quibble only with the idea of having a Faith Point pool based on quantity of Faith-producing units in the list. That could use revision. Thematically, Acts of Faith are most dramatic when they come into play against the odds. Faith, after all, is what the Sisters rely upon at their core, when all else fails.

I like the army-wide pool. Having it based off of faithful units makes it scale better then the 1d6 version. In this day and age of allies everywhere, I think it also works better then a scale based on points value.

With a point system you can have a few units burn hot, and spend more then their share of faith. I have fond memories of sisters refusing to fall, standing defiant against foes that should have snuffed them. Very thematic. But when the faith ran out, they crumpled. Managing the pool was an important part of the battle. GW is still doing this kind of system, over in the khorn demonkin book with blood points. So it’s not just an antiquated relic from back in 3rd.

On the topic of the exorcist, it’s baroque over the top nature is very much in the aesthetic of the army. Even though it’s basically a variant of the predator, it feels completely different. While I think things like the Baal pred would fit in just fine with the SoB mechanically, I like the fact they they have their own look.

 Nevelon wrote:
But when the faith ran out

Yesh so if I was somehow put in charge of developing SoB my design would not allow for their faith to "run out." I am thinking of some kind of system where individual units get tougher as armywide synergies fail.

 the_Armyman wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

1. Don't mess with the holy trinity of weapons: adding plasma and grav and lascannons just because reasons.
2. Faith has to be an integral part of the army: don't make it random (hurr moar dice) and make it scale with list size.
3. Make our CC units functional: Repentia and Pengines should be legitimate choices.

But this is god-tier wishlisting. If GW revisits the Sisters, they'll butcher them.

Heh. Every time GW mentions sisters they get butchered. Good points overall!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
backlash from SJWs

Honestly, I'll never understand that one. And I think this whole paranoia is pretty recent too…

Just ask Josh Wheedon after he got chased off of twitter by SJW's after Avengers 2.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

Overall I think they are just different enough to be outside the realm of "Just another marine army" but if I was to start getting greedy I would say perhaps we get some unique weapons. Maybe one unique weapon for each weapon of the holy trinity and one unique melee weapon. Perhaps some sort of flail with the burning ashes of a revered SoB in it. For each unsaved wound caused in combat with it the user and any allied SoB model in combat with her get a bonus for that round? I'd also like to see new priest models, I'm not a fan of the current offerings from GW and think they could design a much more interesting space priest model. I'm not a fan of the current AoF system, it's ok but it takes some bookkeeping and it just doesn't feel epic enough. The systems described above me sound more fun with a total tally at the beginning and then more at the end as your sisters are martyred. Any idea how to get that out of being an MSU spam tactic though?

I would take it even further. Their flavor/style seems unique, but that's likely for those of us that have been around the hobby long enough to know they exist. Anyone that's gotten into the hobby in the last few years(maybe even 6 or 7 years) has likely never seen any SoB models on store shelves. When they do go look at the model range, what they see is another army wearing power army, carrying bolters as their main weapon, with special/heavy weapons options that are identical to marines and guard. Even their unit organization is too similar to marines with equivalents to assault squads and devastator squads. Their transports are again basically the same as marines. I love the SoB...but it's just not that different, which is likely why GW has never put a whole lot of effort into the army.

Like the AdMech, I feel the emperors church deserves a set of unique weapons manufactured for purging the emperors foes with faith. Perhaps primary weapons that are fire based to fit into their cleansing nature? Giving their power armor a new name to fit the faith motif that comes with a 6++. Gothic looking transports that air lift the sisters into battle (I imagine a small scale looking BFG ships). Seraphim with proper wings that have rules making them living saints appearing from the heavens. Overhauled acts of faith.

There's so much cool stuff they can do with this army to make them a clearly distinct arm of the imperium and not just another token force wielding bolters riding around in rhinos. The AdMech mass produce weapons/vehicles for the armies of the imperium, yet they don't share any weapons with them. I'm sure the could give the emperors church the same kind of treatment.

Seraphim jump packs already echo wings, and they're some of the nicest backpack pieces in the entire game. I hate it when people try and give them feathery wings because hurr durr angels.

Seraphim are human, even if they are lightly touched by the Emperor and trained in Gun Kata.

As far as unique weapons are concerned, when was the last time you actually saw an honest to Emperor melta gun in a Marine army? Some time two codices ago before Grav, right?

What we need is something that poses a credible thread to Gargantuans, and for the rest of our range to be actually available.

The fact is that with the current Faith system, points costs and gear in the books, the Sisters army is bloody powerful against everything else. We have one of the best fliers in the game (Avenger), almost anything you care to point Dominions at dies, and we have some of the best resilience-per-point-cost ObSec in the whole game.

Inevitable_Faith wrote:The systems described above me sound more fun with a total tally at the beginning and then more at the end as your sisters are martyred. Any idea how to get that out of being an MSU spam tactic though?

IIRC some acts of faith you needed to roll higher then the number of sisters in the squad to activate, others lower. So some powers would be rough to fire off on a 5 sister squad. It’s been years, so I forget a lot of the fine details. Plus all of my contact with SoB has either been on the paintbench or across the table. Admittedly, a lot of both, as they were my best friend’s army. But I don’t own the books or have studied them deeply. Just a lot of games, and a lot of chatting.

Manchu wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
But when the faith ran out

Yesh so if I was somehow put in charge of developing SoB my design would not allow for their faith to "run out." I am thinking of some kind of system where individual units get tougher as armywide synergies fail.

Running out of points doesn’t necessarily mean that the unit’s faith has broken, but I see your point. Faith will see you through a lot, but after the 4th or 5th swing, that thunder hammer is going to make it to your skull. I just like the interaction of faith and martyrdom that the old system had. The new DE system gives army wide bonuses as the game progresses IIRC. You could run with something like that. I’m not as fond of that idea, but it could work.

At the end of the day, it’s what GW decides to go with next time. They do change faith every codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

What we need is something that poses a credible thread to Gargantuans

I think blessed bolter ammo (either as an AoF or wargear for celestions) that always wounds on a X+ might be a decent answer.

On that note: how do rending HBs do? The once/twice a game thing limits the ability to spam, but you are chucking a lot of dice.

SoB can also spam melta like nobody’s business, which solves a lot of problems. And as long as your dice aren’t too fickle, exorcists also put out a lot of S8 AP1 firepower. And judging by recent codexes, should be able to squadron next time you get an update, which should help with the congested HS slot. Of course, formations will also affect that.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Seraphim jump packs already echo wings, and they're some of the nicest backpack pieces in the entire game. I hate it when people try and give them feathery wings because hurr durr angels.

Seraphim are human, even if they are lightly touched by the Emperor and trained in Gun Kata.

As far as unique weapons are concerned, when was the last time you actually saw an honest to Emperor melta gun in a Marine army? Some time two codices ago before Grav, right?

I stand by what I want for the army and seraphim. If you want them to remain basically marine offshoots, that's your business. I simply would prefer for them to keep the core of their fluff and gothic style, while getting weapons and units as unique as the newest AdMech release.

Additionally, I see meltaguns everytime I play against a Salamanders SM army, which is fairly common in my meta. Lots of marines armies here also like taking combimelta command squads in a drop pod for insta popping a tank or high priority target from the get go, regardless of chapter.

I feel like seraphim have their own niche thanks to gunslinger and hand flamers. Some other special rules to make them stand out would be lovely too. Do they come standard with hit and run or is that a celsestine thing?

As for their jump packs, I'm indifferent either way. Personally I would prefer not to have actual wings, I feel DE already have them and there's lots of other armies with winged units too. Blood angels and Eldar I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe a "wings of light" thing they did for the sigmarite winged dude would be cool, just on a smaller scale? Even if they keep the pack as it is now I'd be happy too, it's not ugly by any stretch either way. At the end of the day though I totally understand the desire to convert angel wings on them and I've seen some that are ridiculously gorgeously converted (using DE wings I believe). People should make their models exactly what they want them to be, you spent good money, time and effort on them to get them on the table so they should be something you are proud of, angel wings or jump pack are both valid options.

nevelon you mentioned blessed ammunition, I gotta say that got me thinking and maybe a way to make our elite slot celestians worth taking? So all celestians have blessed ammunition, and the ammunition functions differently based on what prayers you recite.You could have one prayer for each of the weapons in the holy trinity. For example:

-Prayer of Purging: All bolters with blessed ammunition change their weapon type to Torrent S3 AP6
-Hymn of Purity: All bolters with blessed ammunition change their weapon type to Salvo 3/5 S4 AP5
-Litanies of Annihilation: All bolters with blessed ammunition change their weapon type to Assault 1 Melta S4 AP1 18" range

So the idea is the celestians in our elite slot now have a very versatile and unique role and we could even extend the option to upgrade any veteran sister superior to have blessed ammunition for a points cost. I like the mental image of a unit of decked out celestians marching into battles reciting prayers while firing their weapons and in unison switching prayers on the fly and having their weapons bark out different flavours of the emperors holy justice. Obviously the stats I put above are just ballparking any semblance of balance but what do you guys think? Is this a good way to make celestians feel better than one shot combi-weapon monkeys like the chaos chosen are?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Faith powers, frateris milita/redemptionists to go along with priests as crazy zealous civilans-turned-murdering-maniacs, crazy machines like the exorcist but more crazier.

... maybe as side units, but if I wanted to play freakshow armies I'd play Inquisition rather htan sisters. I don't really want freak units to be necessary parts of my core, complete Sisters of Battle army. Optional parts to add variations to the list, but I'd hate it if they became a "must have". My mental image of Sisters of Battle are Paladins of the Ecclesiarchy, merging the professional soldier and the holy warrior in to something unique and interesting. Ideally, the Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy both would get some love, both be able to be used independently as complete armies, and also work well together. But I don't want Sisters to absolutely need the freakshow that is the church's bizarre contraptions.

Church-tank Super-Heavy firing D-strength Large Blasts (it chucks/shoots a melta-shell the size of a city bus). Expensive? Yes, but this is the Ecclesiarchy, you cannot attach a price-tag to Faith.

Center-piece Reliquary, functioning similar to banners, KFF or Doom-bells or similar items in the GW product line that provide a buff/effect to allies/enemies within a given bubble-radius around it, depending on the specific Relic. Some are defensive (6" 3++ save to all allies, for example), some are offensive (Center a blast marker on a unit within 12" once per turn on a roll of 4+, deals a S8 AP2 hit on models under the marker as they get struck with divine lightning), depending on which Saint the relic is from.

Minor Relics carried by Veteran Sisters/Sister Superiors that provide a minor buff to her unit while she's alive (+1 BS, +1 T, +1 LD, whatever... there could be a laundry list of these).

More unit variety (Biker Nuns with Guns needs to happen. Again.), an Ecclesiarchal Valkyrie (come on, it's right there in the name!). Maybe striking a bit too close to the modern world, but some variations on Repentia. Instead of Eviscerators, they carry melta-bombs or incendiary explosives. Run into melee, blow yourself up. Center small blast on the model, hits any enemy model under the template. The balance there is making sure they don't reach your lines. Could even be a Faith Power, "Gift of the Martyr" that increases the damage or size of the blast (here she comes, she has a present for you... surprise! It's an overcharged melta-bomb! Lucky you.).

Sisters Oblatia. Sort of a reverse to the Repentia, who are atoning for a personal sin, the Oblatia accept the burden of someone else's transgression. Gains... something... when targeted by Psychic Powers. Need to think on that one some more.

I halfway agree. Unlike SM or IG, SoB are not an autonomous institution. They are the Ecclesiarchy's battlefield presence. Trying to pry apart Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy is a mistake. That said, Sisters should have their own book rather than be a sideshow in some half-baked Codex Ecclesiarchy. The solution here is pretty simple, I think. You write a complete dex that features Celestians, Dominions, Serpahim, Repentia, and your mainline Sisters, and you make that totally self-sufficient. Then you add whatever else, like mobs of the faithful or Penitent Engines or Ecclesiarchy friars or whatnot, and you don't make any of it conditional to Sisters doing their job on the tabletop. The other simple solution is to reinvision Sisters slightly so that they are the forefront troops of a crusade; sort of like a battlion of Joan of Arcs. That is their classic image anyhow. You have small, tough, expensive units of Sisters leading blobs of the faithful forward. This solution is really my preference.

I would like to see seraphim gain a new special rule which allows them to exchange all their attacks for two attacks using their pistols weapons profile. Hand flamers either do not work in assualt, do d3 attacks or just the one.

I would also like to see the cannoness be able to take artificer armour and jump packs again and rename her a palatine with the option to upgrade her to a cannoness ala the space marine chapter master.

For celestians I believe that games workshop needs to stop trying to make them normal sisters who are better at assaults. Allow them to take artificer armour as an upgrade, take combi weapons and possibly steal the spiecal ammunition from the stern guard.

finally regarding the sister oblatia idea, I would make it an elite choice single model unit like the lone wolf, with the ability to take relics, rosarius, jump pack, artificer armour and weapons from the heavy, special, ranged and melee weapon lists

I want to see Acts of Faith tied into the martyrdom idea. As Sisters fall, the faith of the remaining is bolstered. I think that things like Simulacrum should still exist and give you a "set" amount of faith that you can modify in list building but the core of it comes from fighting back when the odds are against you. Maybe something like the Blood Tithe is called for but I actually like each unit having its own unique act of faith, so maybe a combination of both?

I think that Celestians need to be better at assault, first and foremost give them storm bolters standard. Second, and this point extends to ALL armies, stop pricing power weapons like everyone is a Chapter Master or Chaos Lord. A T3 1W model should not pay the same for a power sword as a T4 4W model, it makes no sense what so ever.

Keep the Trinity holy, I love unleashing waves of bolters and flamers at my enemies and washing them away, Sisters are one of the few armies that I feel play exactly like their fluff suggest largely because of the Trinity.

I want to see Repentia and Penitent Engines get some kind of mad buff, maybe a more reliable FNP for Repentia and...well walkers in general need help, so help all of them to help Penitent Engines!

So much more but I am to tired to think of it all right now...

Money and lack of a playerbase.
I would love to play the Nuns with Guns but they are more expensive than ForgeWorld.

Seriously, I can get a cheaper ForgeWorld army than I can with SoB.

 Nurgle wrote:
Money and lack of a playerbase.
I would love to play the Nuns with Guns but they are more expensive than ForgeWorld.

Seriously, I can get a cheaper ForgeWorld army than I can with SoB.

Sadly I feel this sums up a huge problem with a remake of SoB currently. GW doesn't want to reboot them because they don't sell well, they don't sell well because the model line is old pewter and super expensive, GW doesn't want to reboot them cause... you get the point. It's one big spiral that unless buying up ALL the old pewter stock becomes a huge trend amongst the player base and demand sky-rockets we won't see any interest from GW in re-booting them in plastic. Or maybe GW does plan to anyways and we just don't have the slightest inkling as to their insane release schedule for when they think would be a good time to drop them out. I have heard that they tend to sit on completed sculpts for a very long time before finally releasing them, the Eldar jetbike comes to mind for this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and btw nurgle I love your user pic. That's an adorable little nurgling from one of my favourite Nurgle based artworks from the old chaos codex. If memory serves there was about 3 or 4 adorable nurglings from that image, one had huge black eyes and was eating something. Good choice of image all the same.

finally regarding the sister oblatia idea, I would make it an elite choice single model unit like the lone wolf, with the ability to take relics, rosarius, jump pack, artificer armour and weapons from the heavy, special, ranged and melee weapon lists

Ooh, I like that idea...

riburn3 wrote:

I stand by what I want for the army and seraphim. If you want them to remain basically marine offshoots, that's your business. I simply would prefer for them to keep the core of their fluff and gothic style, while getting weapons and units as unique as the newest AdMech release.

Additionally, I see meltaguns everytime I play against a Salamanders SM army, which is fairly common in my meta. Lots of marines armies here also like taking combimelta command squads in a drop pod for insta popping a tank or high priority target from the get go, regardless of chapter.

See, I just disagree outright with the idea that Sisters are 'just marine offshoots' as they are now.

 Manchu wrote:
You have small, tough, expensive units of Sisters leading blobs of the faithful forward. This solution is really my preference.

I'd prefer the core of the army to be Sisters, Sisters, and more Sisters. And the freakshow just being add-ons you can take if you really want to. I really don't 'want to be forced to take some ugly mismatched monstrosity or mob of idiots in my Sororitas army.

Even Inquisition and Dark Eldar don't HAVE to play a Freakshow army unless they really want to (granted, Inquisition less so, since it's mostly there to ally in to other armies)

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

Fire in the sky!

A soulblaze-esque mechanic depicting people being set on fire, and weapons to deliver this effect on unfortunate foes. Short-range ordinance that drops it in cover-ignoring pie plates, a tank turret or sponson that can only ever glance vehicles it hits, but delivers that effect to the models being transported inside. A relic or upgrade that confers that effect on a bolter, perhaps does something worse to psykers.

Each sisters unit generates faith points and either selects a specific act of faith beforehand or opts not to take any act of faith for the ability to generate still more faith points.

Battle Sisters priced in some way to encourage taking larger blobs of them,

A general sense of suicidal overconfidence, something that encourages aggressive play. A Sisters army should need to stick its neck out to do damage and expect to take a lot of damage in return.