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 Iron_Captain wrote:

jamesk1973 wrote:
To chime in on veterans being a barrier to entry.

You bet your ass I am.

IF I happen to be at the LGS and I see anyone near the GW section, I amble over and say howdy.

THEN I begin to ask them what brought them to that section. If it is someone already involved with the game I make small talk for a bit and then move on.

If it someone new or thinking about getting into the game; or even thinking about buying some GW for someone as a gift, I swing into action.

I say something along the lines of;

"That was once a really well supported game, but it is slowly dying off. The manufacturer even ended one of their games about a year ago and dropped support."

or

"Do you like Star Wars? Because there are FOUR fantastic games out for it right now."

or

"Those prices are a bit gougy and GW has been known to kill off entire armies before. Have you looked at XXXXXX? They are really well supported and have a robust tournament system so you can play for fun and glory against your friends!"

Practically anything that falls out of my mouth makes GW look like the gaks that they are.

Have you no sense of decency? Or something better to do with your time? When people need advice they will ask for it. What you do is just rude.

 Wulfmar wrote:
I'm guilty of it too

There is plenty of reason to be critical or negative about GW. But going from constructrive criticism and providing honest advice when asked to harrasing others about it crosses too many lines. I'd advise you to do some critical self-evaluation.

And I'd advise you not to be so judgmental. It's called "conversation." I don't just run up to them like a used car salesmen. And I don't consider telling people the cons of something a bad thing.

Technically the Squats figures are still completely valid, but you would have to choose a different codex. Squats players generally use Imperial Guard.

The Squats are popular enough for I think two non-GW ranges of Space Dwarves to be in production; Ollies' Armies' Scrunts, and the Hasslefree Grymn.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Have you no sense of decency? Or something better to do with your time? When people need advice they will ask for it. What you do is just rude.

There is plenty of reason to be critical or negative about GW. But going from constructrive criticism and providing honest advice when asked to harrasing others about it crosses too many lines. I'd advise you to do some critical self-evaluation.

Look at you Iron_Captain, with your blinkered view and jumping to conclusions - making judgements of others... You did a bad thing Captainy, a bad thing - go back under your rock.

As it happens, I help run the club and we guide new players towards games that they might enjoy, so of course this comes up in conversation. What they get is honest advice based on a range of wargames.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

jamesk1973 wrote:
To chime in on veterans being a barrier to entry.

You bet your ass I am.

IF I happen to be at the LGS and I see anyone near the GW section, I amble over and say howdy.

THEN I begin to ask them what brought them to that section. If it is someone already involved with the game I make small talk for a bit and then move on.

If it someone new or thinking about getting into the game; or even thinking about buying some GW for someone as a gift, I swing into action.

I say something along the lines of;

"That was once a really well supported game, but it is slowly dying off. The manufacturer even ended one of their games about a year ago and dropped support."

or

"Do you like Star Wars? Because there are FOUR fantastic games out for it right now."

or

"Those prices are a bit gougy and GW has been known to kill off entire armies before. Have you looked at XXXXXX? They are really well supported and have a robust tournament system so you can play for fun and glory against your friends!"

Practically anything that falls out of my mouth makes GW look like the gaks that they are.

Have you no sense of decency? Or something better to do with your time? When people need advice they will ask for it. What you do is just rude.

 Wulfmar wrote:
I'm guilty of it too

There is plenty of reason to be critical or negative about GW. But going from constructrive criticism and providing honest advice when asked to harrasing others about it crosses too many lines. I'd advise you to do some critical self-evaluation.

And I'd advise you not to be so judgmental. It's called "conversation." I don't just run up to them like a used car salesmen. And I don't consider telling people the cons of something a bad thing.

From Jamesk1973's description, it is even worse than car salesmen... Advice should only be given when asked for, otherwise it is incredibly rude. And trying to steer people away from a game that you don't like they got interested in to a game that you do like, based on your personal and subjective preferences, is even worse. People don't need you to tell them the cons of something.
And it is ironic that you advise someone else to not be so judgemental.

 Wulfmar wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Have you no sense of decency? Or something better to do with your time? When people need advice they will ask for it. What you do is just rude.

There is plenty of reason to be critical or negative about GW. But going from constructrive criticism and providing honest advice when asked to harrasing others about it crosses too many lines. I'd advise you to do some critical self-evaluation.

Look at you Iron_Captain, with your blinkered view and jumping to conclusions - making judgements of others... You did a bad thing Captainy, a bad thing - go back under your rock.

As it happens, I help run the club and we guide new players towards games that they might enjoy, so of course this comes up in conversation. What they get is honest advice based on a range of wargames.

Oh pots and kettles.
I will confess to not knowing you personally, and therefore not being able to give a proper judgement. I am just going of your comments in this thread. If you just help people interested in a wargame pick one that is right for them, that is a good, not a bad thing. But if you, like jamesk1973 actively try to steer interested people away from a game based on your personal dislike for a game, that is bad. Again, there is a difference between helping people asking for advice on wargames and trying to pressurise people interested in 40k into getting into a different game instead.
And if you can't handle honest criticism of your behaviour, I kindly suggest you be the one to go back under a rock.

Oh just be quiet already

You say you're crisicising, and you are, on a situation you weren't in with people you don't know.

It's as valuable as critiscism by a civilian without experience on military tactics employed on board a naval vessel.

Out of interest to you guys who advise people against 40k. (Or in your words give the pros and cons)

Do you also give the pros and cons of the other games you suggest.

For instance for myself every game I have generally tried that has not been 40k I have plowed £30-£150 and the player base has died within a short period and moved onto shiny game x.

For Xwing specifically do you tell them about the high cost/ duplicate model potential for high end tournament play. i.e ships (that I found quite pricy per model, but fine considering small numbers) don't come with every card they can use, so you may have to buy another model you don't necessarily want for the card you do want.

DavidTJ wrote:
Out of interest to you guys who advise people against 40k. (Or in your words give the pros and cons)

Do you also give the pros and cons of the other games you suggest.

For instance for myself every game I have generally tried that has not been 40k I have plowed £30-£150 and the player base has died within a short period and moved onto shiny game x.

For Xwing specifically do you tell them about the high cost/ duplicate model potential for high end tournament play. i.e ships (that I found quite pricy per model, but fine considering small numbers) don't come with every card they can use, so you may have to buy another model you don't necessarily want for the card you do want.

In a word, Yes. - If you give rubbish advice, people stop coming to the club.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Apart from the infamous Squats and a few character models (still pissed about that) GW rarely invalidates its models.

At the end of 6th ed I had a bunch of punch happy orks, tank shredding deffrolla wagons and cool scratch built kans.

A few weeks later I had a couple hundred pseudo-grots who ran from loud noises, overpriced dozerblade carriers and walking roman candles.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Advice should only be given when asked for, otherwise it is incredibly rude.

That's all well and good, until you start applying it to people who don't ask for advice because they don't know what to ask. If you've never played a wargame before, then you probably won't know that not all units are equal, that some armies are more expensive than others, that some armies are better than others, that GW couldn't give a crap about the rules etc. And, the guy running the store sure as hell isn't going to tell him.

Tinkrr has it right. There is nothing wrong wh approaching someone with a greeting and opening up some casual conversation, judging by their response weither or not you should have further, honest communication about the hobby. It's not like they cannot form their own opinion and are easily swayed by some angry nerd (chillax, mutha-gakkers, just wantonly strokin with a giant gakking brush).

In fact, if someone approached me in this manner, I would welcome the debate, but ultimately it would end at "I just want a sexy elf boat party."

In other words, we mon-keighs will always just do whatever the gak we want.

DavidTJ wrote:
Out of interest to you guys who advise people against 40k. (Or in your words give the pros and cons)

Do you also give the pros and cons of the other games you suggest.

For instance for myself every game I have generally tried that has not been 40k I have plowed £30-£150 and the player base has died within a short period and moved onto shiny game x.

For Xwing specifically do you tell them about the high cost/ duplicate model potential for high end tournament play. i.e ships (that I found quite pricy per model, but fine considering small numbers) don't come with every card they can use, so you may have to buy another model you don't necessarily want for the card you do want.

Absolutely.
My favorite game at the moment, WMH, isn't for everyone. It has a very competitive meta (which I'm trying to change) has a very steep learning curve and requires more dedication and knowledge about the game than some others. It's very tense and tactics heavy, so if you want a chill game to toss dice around, it's not for you.

40k just has a longer list of cons.

Advice should only be given when asked for, otherwise it is incredibly rude.

You see someone who is going off a cliff, as he is not asking if there is a cliff in front of him, you do not inform him it, as it would be rude to do.

Makumba wrote:

Advice should only be given when asked for, otherwise it is incredibly rude.

You see someone who is going off a cliff, as he is not asking if there is a cliff in front of him, you do not inform him it, as it would be rude to do.

Do you shout out to everyone who is walking to a cliff edge? Normally, when I see people walking towards the edge, I don't assume they are going to walk over it. 99.9% of the times, people have noticed the edge just fine and are just approaching the edge to look down, take a nice picture or whatever.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Do you shout out to everyone who is walking to a cliff edge?

Better than shouting out when they've gone over it.

How many people want 40K to die?

Personally, I would prefer it to return to the kind of game it was a few years ago, that I enjoyed playing. However if it does not, I have no interest in helping it to prosper in a format that doesn't appeal to me.

It's difficult to know what will happen. I think there is a good chance that GW will AoSify 40K. This actually would suit me quite well.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many people want 40K to die?

Well, I think a lot of people would rather it nosedived to the point where GW sells their IP to someone else - someone who might actually give a damn about the game and sell models and rules for reasonable prices.

 vipoid wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many people want 40K to die?

Well, I think a lot of people would rather it nosedived to the point where GW sells their IP to someone else - someone who might actually give a damn about the game and sell models and rules for reasonable prices.

It is however far more likely the IP will just get picked up by Sega or some other company with zero interest in miniatures. Miniatures are a niche market, 40k has far more potential as a videogame franchise. GW going down isn't going to be good for 40k.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many people want 40K to die?

Personally, I would prefer it to return to the kind of game it was a few years ago, that I enjoyed playing. However if it does not, I have no interest in helping it to prosper in a format that doesn't appeal to me.

It's difficult to know what will happen. I think there is a good chance that GW will AoSify 40K. This actually would suit me quite well.

AoSification of 40k would be its death.
AoS is already dead. No suitable missions and no proper army building is the death of a game like this.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many people want 40K to die?

Well, I think a lot of people would rather it nosedived to the point where GW sells their IP to someone else - someone who might actually give a damn about the game and sell models and rules for reasonable prices.

It is however far more likely the IP will just get picked up by Sega or some other company with zero interest in miniatures. Miniatures are a niche market, 40k has far more potential as a videogame franchise. GW going down isn't going to be good for 40k.

I'll be honest, with the advent of practical consumer virtual reality next year with dexterous hand contollers, I foresee a number of tabletop war games moving onto a digital board. Heck, while it may be scolded, there are already 40k and Xwing in Tabletop Simulator.

I don't want 40k to die, and would be very happy if they can get their head on straight. But we are entering a market environment that may make it that much harder unless they head it off.

 Nilok wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many people want 40K to die?

Well, I think a lot of people would rather it nosedived to the point where GW sells their IP to someone else - someone who might actually give a damn about the game and sell models and rules for reasonable prices.

It is however far more likely the IP will just get picked up by Sega or some other company with zero interest in miniatures. Miniatures are a niche market, 40k has far more potential as a videogame franchise. GW going down isn't going to be good for 40k.

I'll be honest, with the advent of practical consumer virtual reality next year with dexterous hand contollers, I foresee a number of tabletop war games moving onto a digital board. Heck, while it may be scolded, there are already 40k and Xwing in Tabletop Simulator.

I don't want 40k to die, and would be very happy if they can get their head on straight. But we are entering a market environment that may make it that much harder unless they head it off.

While I think you're right, many players will be more attracted to the use of VR headsets and dexterous hand controllers (adult entertainment will never be the same again). Many people (myself included) enjoy physically painting and kit-bashing. As much as I enjoy computer games, physical models will still come first for myself and many others. Sitting alone in my room / across from another goggled friend and moving imaginary units would be entertaining as a fad, but I don't feel as attached as I do to models I've spent time and care over. I may be a minority though, I'm the type of person who prefers to build items rather than just buying them from Argos. Wood/metal/plastic working, home DIY - real hands on stuff if what I do to relax.

 Wulfmar wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many people want 40K to die?

Well, I think a lot of people would rather it nosedived to the point where GW sells their IP to someone else - someone who might actually give a damn about the game and sell models and rules for reasonable prices.

It is however far more likely the IP will just get picked up by Sega or some other company with zero interest in miniatures. Miniatures are a niche market, 40k has far more potential as a videogame franchise. GW going down isn't going to be good for 40k.

I'll be honest, with the advent of practical consumer virtual reality next year with dexterous hand contollers, I foresee a number of tabletop war games moving onto a digital board. Heck, while it may be scolded, there are already 40k and Xwing in Tabletop Simulator.

I don't want 40k to die, and would be very happy if they can get their head on straight. But we are entering a market environment that may make it that much harder unless they head it off.

While I think you're right, many players will be more attracted to the use of VR headsets and dexterous hand controllers (adult entertainment will never be the same again). Many people (myself included) enjoy physically painting and kit-bashing. As much as I enjoy computer games, physical models will still come first for myself and many others. Sitting alone in my room / across from another goggled friend and moving imaginary units would be entertaining as a fad, but I don't feel as attached as I do to models I've spent time and care over. I may be a minority though, I'm the type of person who prefers to build items rather than just buying them from Argos. Wood/metal/plastic working, home DIY - real hands on stuff if what I do to relax.

I don't see it as completely separate. 3d scanners are dropping in price, and a number of people have already presented software specifically for getting your custom physical model onto the computer for tabletop games. A number of people may prefer it as it gives their models the biggest stage compared to a single FLGS or pictures.

Oooo a virtual table top with animated mini's would be super cool.

Reminds me of the simulation in Angel Exterminatus (think it was this book?) where the Iron Warriors are playing a game simulating the assault on the Imperial Palace

If GW was really forwards thinking, I could see them release a first party VR tabletop with some inbuilt rules.

They would then most likely have a micro transaction for either each model or army (probably a mix of the two).
I could also see trial models that are unpainted that everything else gets preferred enemy against.

It could be a very profitable model if done right similar to Warframe or League of Legends and raise more interest in the existing model lines and physical game.

I steer people away from 40k when I can and try to show them x wing, Warmahordes or Infinity.
Yes I do give the pros and cons of each to try and help someone find the game that is right for them.
It doesn't come up much though as I wouldn't do it in a GW store and people don't look at GW products at my FLGSs.

Also, hell yes I want 40k to die while I still have fond memories and the fluff is still usable for RPGs. But really I'd have wanted it to die around the end of 5th ed for that. I like the idea of running a Deathwatch game, but don't want to have to deal with centurions, nor crap like murderfang and his murderclaws.

I want 40k to go out with some dignity, unlike my beloved Fantasy and it's 'accident' with Sigmar.

I hope it dies more and more each day now.
Had a large game with some mates earlier (32k total).
It got really boring really fast.

At the same time, I don't want the people to lose their jobs. But GW design team needs to stop collaborating, because they clearly aren't doing a good job.

The hate train has no brakes.

 dusara217 wrote:
The hate train has no brakes.

Aye, GW removed them all

The hate train is why I can only rarely get 40k games in anymore. 3 armies into 40k....

 War Kitten wrote:
The hate train is why I can only rarely get 40k games in anymore. 3 armies into 40k....

I feel you, man. Love the fluff, love the artwork, love the models, can tolerate the prices and wish Matthew Ward, my spiritual liege, was back on crunch team.