Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all,

The Mont'ka formations have galvanized me to work on the armor component of my guard regiment. The specifics of the formations aside, I have been thinking about the role of the leman russ in the list.

What can they offer and how are they best utilized?

Traditionally, I think the wisdom is "Tanks kill infantry, infantry kill tanks." So the russes are best used as infantry killers, and there are several variations which are helpful in accomplishing this. Specifically, the eradicator and executioner. I hesitate to include the punisher here due to its 24" range. Both of the aforementioned tanks are very good at what they do: clearing light and heavy infantry respectively.

The problem is when we start looking at the meta which is very bike heavy. Traditionally, the executioner would be pretty good at this job since it wounds on 2s with no armor, but since jinking is a thing, the AP 2 is insignificant because the unit in question will gain a 3+ (potentially rerollable) save. With spacing, you're probably not going to hit more than one bike per template, leading to 5 wounds to be saved. Based on the cost of the tank, this isn't all that hot. You can compare it to an exterminator: 4 autocannon shots with BS4 and TL means you're probably hitting 4 times at s7. Oh look, it's close to equivalent and it's ~50 points cheaper. The AP 2 does matter when you think about beatstick characters and the potential to cut down some vehicles.

So russes aren't that great at dealing with bikes. Ok. There are formations which are. So russes don't do bikes, what do they do? Terminators, footsloggers, super heavies, and vehicles. The first two fall into the traditional "infantry" targets of the russes. Again, executioners and eradicators. Why are russes better than chimera vets or platoons or wyverns at doing this? All I can guess is price, range, firepower on the move, and AV 14. Those are some benefits, and using russes right will make use of these benefits.

What about specialists and the other potential targets? The most significant and specific IMO is the vanquisher. Long range big gun. BS 4 makes it more reliable, and the extreme range is damn sexy. It's still going to struggle with the look out sir game and cover. One good shot is good, but is it enough? I feel like it could be when used in combination with barrage weapons and spammed. Barrage takes out the grunts that give the beat stick AP 2 protection and the 10 3+/2+ shots (turret vanquisher cannon hull las cannon) do their work. The vanquisher also wrecks vehicles pretty well, but it does struggle with stripping hull points because of its single shot. There are few psychic buffs that can be applied to these lads, so you're really relying on that single shot to go through. Again, seems like more of a gamble than I tend to like to make. If it's too much of a gamble, the russes really lose out on the big guns and struggle to deal with "the big guys." Is that OK? Can the rest of the army be relied upon to deal with wraith knights, flyrants, and razorback spam?

I will lump 2 specialists in together here because of their range: the demolisher and punisher. I really want to love the demolisher. It's a big middle finger to everyone who says guard doesn't like to get close. AP 2, instant death on T5 or less badassery. The punisher is a bit more finessed. In the way a mideval warhammer is more finessed than a sledge hammer. It's pumping out 20-29 shots at mid strength and close range. Interesting. It's more versatile while still pushing the dice rolling envelope. You have awesome saves? Great dude, make 20 of them. My favorite unit in the guard arsenal ATM is the vulture armed with twin linked punisher cannons. This guy just solves problems. Can the punisher russ do the same? I don't know because it doesn't have the mobility or protection given to zooming fliers as the vulture is. Still, it certainly solves some of the questions I had regarding the aforementioned anti-infantry tanks. The last thing to deal with is range. 24" is close. Tanks really really really don't want to be close because of how combat vs vehicles works these days (man do I miss the old "hit the facing your assaulting model is on" rules). The range may be a blessing in disguise, however. Your tanks need a bubble wrap and blobbed platoons are pretty good at bubble wrapping. Blob platoons are also rapid fire obsec units, and enjoy walking up the field. So you can move your close range tanks up with the element that's supposed to protect them and everyone benefits. Nice. The difference here is that there's nothing preventing the other tanks from doing the same, and those other tanks can reach out and touch someone that the 24"ers really can't, so you do have fewer options tactically speaking. But as I said before, these tanks offer options that others really don't, so it could be worth pursuing.

We finally come to the generalists: the exterminator and the bog standard russ. The russ really suffers from its cost and an either-or syndrome with its main gun vs its sponsons. I assume PotMS can't fire the battle cannon in addition to the sponson weapons treating the battle cannon as the "extra gun" since it's not prevented from firing. The exterminator is an interesting beast because of the versatility of the autocannon turret. It's also going to benefit from the formation bonuses helping it hit more often, either in the form of preferred enemy or as BS4. The autocanon is at home shooting vehicles, bikes, heavy armor, and monsters. This means that your sponsons determine what it's going to be best at. Multimelta/las canon is one option, and heavy bolters all around seems to be the other. Since other aspects of the list can be made rather specific, I feel like the generalist of choice would be this high ROF customize-able tank.

The final thing I'd like to add is the awesomeness which is forgeworld options for guard and tanks in particular. The malcador infernus is a beast and is (unfairly IMO) barred from ITC format events. The salamander command vehicle is awesome with a garaunteed -1 to cover. Couple this with the actually useful tank orders (reroll successful cover saves) and specialist ammunition, the armored company gives you some tools to deal with the issues russes face. The down side is that you don't get formation bonuses. No BS4, no preferred enemy, and the points costs are back through the roof. I dunno, it might bear some testing.

What do you all think?

My 2 cents:
1. Punishers decimate infantry and light vehicles alike. Give them hull-mounted LCs and MM sponsons and they are ready to go (the only thing they are not good against are 3+/2+ cover saves and very tough multi-wound units with FNP like SW Cavalry or MegaNobs).
2. Executioners (with plasma sponsons) wipe out 2+ squads, can put a lot of wounds on regular infantry and are able to penetrate AV12. But they can easy "Get Hot!" themselves to death, so Engineseer is almost required if you field them.
3. Vanquishers are good anti-tank platform (with hull-mounted LC and may be MM sponsons if you have points to spare), but only in Mont'Ka formation where they are BS4, or if you can give them Preferred Enemy or some other source of To-Hit re-rolls.
4. Eradicators are questionable. They have "Ignores Cover" main gun but it is still AP4 and there are a lot of 3+ at the table (marines, aspect warriors, bikers etc.).
5. Demolishers and LRBTs are overpriced and both suffer from their main guns being Ordnance (you have to snap-shot hull-mounted and sponson weapons that sucks). Make it Primary Weapon or let Heavy vehicles ignore Ordnance side effects and may be they will be fine (but still costly).
6. I can't tell anything about Exterminators because I never take one. Their main gun do not have any distinctive abilities and just not good in anything. And it is also AP4.

AstraVlad wrote:

1. Punishers decimate infantry and light vehicles alike. Give them hull-mounted LCs and MM sponsons and they are ready to go (the only thing they are not good against are 3+/2+ cover saves and very tough multi-wound units with FNP like SW Cavalry or MegaNobs).

I don't understand your sponson additions. The point of the punisher is the high ROF which will deal with the strong saves. Unless you're spamming PotMS, throwing punisher shots and las canon shots at the same target seems questionable. Still, BS4 and 20 s5 shots does work, but the question is do these shots do things that las guns can't or other tanks do better?

AstraVlad wrote:
2. Executioners (with plasma sponsons) wipe out 2+ squads, can put a lot of wounds on regular infantry and are able to penetrate AV12. But they can easy "Get Hot!" themselves to death, so Engineseer is almost required if you field them.

You are required to field engineseers in the mont'ka formation. There are multiple sources of preferred enemy within the IG book including the aquilla, pask, the steel host formation, and the tank commander's warlord traits. Against 2+ armor saves in 4+ cover, the executioner comes out well on top assuming it's got plasma sponsons and the exterminator does not. As soon as you get into storm shield saves and 3+ cover (rerollable or not), the 55 point price increase gets you less and less.

I do think you have a viable point though: the executioner gets you 36" AP 2 firepower which guard doesn't have a huge amount of.

AstraVlad wrote:
3. Vanquishers are good anti-tank platform.

Are they though? You need to roll a 6 on the pen chart after cover saves are made. That doesn't seem reliable to me, getting 1/12 penetrating hits to remove a vehicle from the table, again assuming cover.

AstraVlad wrote:
4. Eradicators are questionable. They have "Ignores Cover" main gun but it is still AP4 and there are a lot of 3+ at the table (marines, aspect warriors, bikers etc.).

This is pretty wrong IMO. Yeah, there are 3+ saves, but 4+ cover is EVERYWHERE. The difference is only 16% and the cost of the tank is really low, even with sponsons. This is even more significant when you look at the ravenwing jink meta. I will take a 3+ save over a rerollable 2+ every day. The only tanks that compete in this category are the battle tank, demolisher, and the executioner all of which are on even footing against skilled rider jinks for HUGE discrepancies in points (up to 50%!). You could make the argument that the rest of the army can deal with bikes better, especially things like the artillery company, but the same could be said for executioners.

This is really the heart of my post: what do the russes offer the IG player? I think that eradicators give you solid anti-infantry firepower and can force enough saves to compensate for the low AP value of 4 on its guns. That and the fact it's one of the few dedicated russes that is really good at its job.

AstraVlad wrote:
5. Demolishers and LRBTs are overpriced and both suffer from their main guns being Ordnance.

You don't take sponsons. The main gun on the demolisher is powerful enough to warrant this since it's both AP2 and can tap out characters and vehicles. The thunderer siege tank is pretty awesome rocking in at 140 points, and that's the route I'd go if I were to have a forward tank element. Still, AP2 ain't all that IMO. Ordnance on the demo cannon is actually pretty sexy since it lets you rock around with better pen chances against vehicles, but as stated before, without volume of shots, you're going to have a hard time.

AstraVlad wrote:
6. I can't tell anything about Exterminators because I never take one. Their main gun do not have any distinctive abilities and just not good in anything. And it is also AP4.

Cheap, customizable generalist. I really like this tank especially at BS 4. 4 TL autocannon shots, MM sponsons, hull LC makes it a high volume of high quality shots. You could slap on plasma cannons or heavy bolters if you'd rather. Basically I think it could be a durable heavy weapons team for the advancing blob.

To restate my question, what can russes offer guard players? They are selectively durable, relatively mobile for their fire output, and customizable. Artillery company puts out more ignores cover pain, the blob can deal with infantry spam pretty well, and you need to protect your investment in armor with careful play and list building to avoid melta spam, grav spam, and assault. The discussion of the types gets at a desire to differentiate the tanks so that I can better understand what the can offer rather than a comparison between them.

Maybe it's just because my meta involves a LOT of low AV transport spam, but the exterminator has always been my default Russ choice.

I run a standard Paskisher with executioner buddy (executioner is far less likely to suck with preferred enemy) and then everything else is an executioner.

The strength of the Eldar serpent- spam list was reliable mid strength target agnostic shooting.

It's a general rule that cheap infantry should be armed in such a way that they're a credible, non ignorable threat that can punch above their weight class (hence the popularity of meltas) and tanks should be able to reliably pump out wounds every turn as risky "all or nothing" play is a good way to get nothing out of your expensive tank.

So I run melta veterans with Paskisher, executioner with plasma, and exterminators with HBs.

While 3+ saves might be more common, more wounds kills those too. An exterminator firing full bore at MEQ does down 3 of them, and can also take out their rhino. While a Vanquisher might take out a super big vehicle in one shot it also is more likely to miss-the Paskisher on the other hand will just reliably pump out damage until whatever it is gets drowned in glances.

the_scotsman wrote:
Maybe it's just because my meta involves a LOT of low AV transport spam, but the exterminator has always been my default Russ choice.

I run a standard Paskisher with executioner buddy (executioner is far less likely to suck with preferred enemy) and then everything else is an executioner.

The strength of the Eldar serpent- spam list was reliable mid strength target agnostic shooting.

It's a general rule that cheap infantry should be armed in such a way that they're a credible, non ignorable threat that can punch above their weight class (hence the popularity of meltas) and tanks should be able to reliably pump out wounds every turn as risky "all or nothing" play is a good way to get nothing out of your expensive tank.

So I run melta veterans with Paskisher, executioner with plasma, and exterminators with HBs.

While 3+ saves might be more common, more wounds kills those too. An exterminator firing full bore at MEQ does down 3 of them, and can also take out their rhino. While a Vanquisher might take out a super big vehicle in one shot it also is more likely to miss-the Paskisher on the other hand will just reliably pump out damage until whatever it is gets drowned in glances.

Doesn't the vulture do high wound volume generation better than the Punisher? With 24 inch range, the Punisher might not even be in range the first turn so it's benefit of being on the table more turns is not even really a benefit? With strafing run and twin-linked, the vulture is cheaper than a BS 4 Punisher and can hit anywhere on the table the turn it comes on. Vector dancer and hover remove the fear of being unable to get a target the following turn.

Ether wrote:

AstraVlad wrote:

1. Punishers decimate infantry and light vehicles alike. Give them hull-mounted LCs and MM sponsons and they are ready to go (the only thing they are not good against are 3+/2+ cover saves and very tough multi-wound units with FNP like SW Cavalry or MegaNobs).

I don't understand your sponson additions. The point of the punisher is the high ROF which will deal with the strong saves. Unless you're spamming PotMS, throwing punisher shots and las canon shots at the same target seems questionable. Still, BS4 and 20 s5 shots does work, but the question is do these shots do things that las guns can't or other tanks do better?

It is because Punishers are a backbone of my tank forces. So, if I want to crack open some Rinos -- LC and 2 MMs will help. If I want to kill a 2+ threat (Centurions, Termies) they will help. If I need to fight T8 nonsense (AKA WrathKnight) -- they will be my only hope. And if I just don't have anything decent to shoot at in 30'' -- I can always find some target for a LC.

As for flyers -- they are not reliable. You can never know whether they will come from reserves at the second turn or at the 4th when everything is done. They just can not replace tanks. I tell it from experience, I like flyers, but for most time they sit on the shelf.

Call me crazy but I've always like the humble base model Russ. 72" pie plate, that unlike the Manticore and other artillery can fire at anything inside that range.

As for flyers -- they are not reliable. You can never know whether they will come from reserves at the second turn or at the 4th when everything is done. They just can not replace tanks. I tell it from experience, I like flyers, but for most time they sit on the shelf.

If the flyers form a large core of your strategy then some sort of reserve manipulation is certainly necessary. Comms relay, psychic powers or ally units that give bonuses for reserves. Additionally you can take the landing pad to start the flyer on the board as well. I don't think I've had a game where I did not find the vulture useful. Based on your local meta and experience, your mileage may vary.

Call me crazy but I've always like the humble base model Russ. 72" pie plate, that unlike the Manticore and other artillery can fire at anything inside that range.

As an FYI, for barrage weapons, all that "minimum range" implies is that the weapon cannot be fired indirectly. You have to fire it directly, at which point it's no different than a Russ. It will be blast weapon that's fired based on line of sight.

Barrage fired directly stil function like barrage it just gets to fire within minimum distance and reduce scattere by BS

Vultures are great-however a vulture costs about 120-140$ depending on shipping or more, and Leman Russes can be found for 20 quite commonly on Ebay.

Simply, there is a certain amount I'm willing to pay for a small bit of extra in-game power, and a 120$ differential is quite a bit past that limit in my book.

Also, much of the IG's power is very reliant on a good solid turn one. Unlike more mobile armies or melee comfortable armies much of your effectiveness is contingent on your ability to keep your opponent on the back foot. Against an aggressive play , a Leman Russ punisher can deliver a turn one beta strike extremely well. Vultures, not so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Barrage fired directly stil function like barrage it just gets to fire within minimum distance and reduce scattere by BS

I think you'll find that's incorrect. They still function as blast weapons, yes, but you don't get the wounds allocated from scatter and indirect fire.

the_scotsman wrote:
Vultures are great-however a vulture costs about 120-140$ depending on shipping or more, and Leman Russes can be found for 20 quite commonly on Ebay.

Simply, there is a certain amount I'm willing to pay for a small bit of extra in-game power, and a 120$ differential is quite a bit past that limit in my book.

Also, much of the IG's power is very reliant on a good solid turn one. Unlike more mobile armies or melee comfortable armies much of your effectiveness is contingent on your ability to keep your opponent on the back foot. Against an aggressive play , a Leman Russ punisher can deliver a turn one beta strike extremely well. Vultures, not so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Barrage fired directly stil function like barrage it just gets to fire within minimum distance and reduce scattere by BS

I think you'll find that's incorrect. They still function as blast weapons, yes, but you don't get the wounds allocated from scatter and indirect fire.

yes you do

I've run most russes and here's what i can tell from tabletop experience:

Punisher - good. We all know a good old pasknisher combo with a lazcannon and mm sponsons. Now what about regular pasknisher? Still good enough with bs4. Simple as that.

Eradicators - good. 140 pts and you get a potent s6 ap4 ignore cover large blast that generally hurts infantry as good or better than a lrbt. You also get 9 hb shots. Even if you assume, you somehow manage to catch 3+ guyz without invuls in the open (yeah, right), this extra hb shots will catch up with an ap3 blast.

Exterminator - fine but overpriced. 2 tl autocannons. Not impressive but gets better with sponsons.

Executioner - fine but overpriced. Needs preferred enemy or other stuff to re-roll gets hot. Can be frightening for certain foes. Is very expensive and could easilly end up as a bit too massive waste of points against fast jinking stuff and hordes.

Battle tank - bad. Does nothing other parts of your army can't do better for this ammount of points other than frighten crysis suits, regular nobz and tyranid warriors in the open...so, crysis suits that don't melta you to death before you shoot.

Demolisher - tried it just once but it ended up wrecked pretty fast. Yep, it's a fire magnet. Somewhat overpriced but might be not too bad.

Vanquisher - haven't tried it. Theoretically, could be somewhat fine with bs4 as a tankhunter with a lazcannon.

Now, this tanks were tested in a mostly infantry list. When you go tank heavy, things change up a bit. Basically, you'll need every tank other than the lrbt to do it's job. Cause you don't have much points in other stuff that generally does it better. For example, melta drop will be much more limited, so vanquishers become more important. You won't have a thick guardsman baublewrap, so punishers and exterminators will become a vital part of your list. Executioners and demolishers will fill the ap2/1 gap that plazmaguns and meltaguns usually fill. And sometimes even heavyflamer is going to be better than a HB in such lists.

 koooaei wrote:
I've run most russes and here's what i can tell from tabletop experience:

+1

The rule of thumb in 40k: to be able to reliably kill something in the world of multiple saves (armor, cover, invul, FNP, RP etc) you have to be able to either:
a) inflict a great amount of wounds to make you opponent fail his save-rolls (Punishers and scatter-bikes are the main example here);
or
b) bypass said saves completely by low AP, high S, "Ignores Cover!" weapons (Executioner and Eradicator go this way, as well as Eldar D-scythes for example).

And of course, you need your fire platform to be as reliable as it is possible, able to shoot from turn 1 until the endgame. With AV14 front you can laugh at most weapons in the game that can easily ruin your day if you depend from one of those AV12 fliers. SMS spam, Scatter lasers, death-spinners, plasma-guns, gatling cannons -- everything is just totally useless against you. Crack missiles, melta-guns out of melta-range and other S8 stuff -- good luck glancing me on 6th. Lascannons? OK, roll 6 to pen and after that I'll still have my cover save (cover is everywhere!).

Of course, grav-drop will still ruin your day and lances and D-weapons are the thing to be reckoned with, but this is what we call "game balance".

By the way, with new artillery formation I'm very tempted to replace my Russes with it, at least partially. To be able to throw S9, AP3, "Ignores Cover!", twin-linked large blasts anywhere at the table is just totally insane.

The manner to which I kit and usage thereof:
LRMBT: Keep it at base price and just snapfire the HHB. Or use the "Classic" loadout: hull las, sponson bolters; this gives you a slightly better chance to damage whatever target your battle cannon is firing at(11% overall to damage av 13 with the lascannon, same per shot to throw a wound at T4 with the heavy bolter). Final type is all heavy bolters, this one is designated for straight anti-infantry; but there are far better russes for this role.

Exterminator: LRMBT classic loadout, this is another generalist tank. Since the hydra(and skyfire) has gone to no ground targets(well, hail-mary shots at them anyways) the exterminator is another good light-med vehicle attacker that can also take out massed infantry, hull las helps increase vehicle damage and sponson bolters help increase infantry damage. Can also provide good pure(ish) anti infantry with all bolters. Finally this is one of the few tanks that can make effective use of the mm sponsons as they are better than the main gun in anti-armour, I suggest keeping the hull heavy bolter to maintain the generalist role,but a hull heavy flamer will mesh with the need for close range on the mms.

Vanquisher: keep it cheap, only a hull las, maybe mm sponsons. This is a pure-anti-armour tank.

Eradicator: I don't have much personal experience with this one. Hull hb and flamer sponsons should do well as a cover flusher, but only with close-support elements(at which point those elements could probably fulfill the role without the tank. All bolters are a good choice as well for an anti-infatry role. Plasma cannons are not terrible on this platform either for blast satuation(and low cost).

Demolisher: hull las only, possibly "classic" mbt load the tank is decent anti-armour to begin with, but suffers from low-range; the lascannon helps support this first turn and in the late-game when targets are lessened and you may find yourself out of position.

Punisher: all bolter and tack on a stubber. Pure infantry killer.

Executioner: hull hb and plasma sponsons. The hb matches range with the plasma. Role is mostly anti-heavy infantry, with a light vehicle backup target. While many russes are somewhat wasted against hordes 5 small blasts can put out enough hurt per unit to compensate.

Bonus forgeworld analysis(house rules may be required for adding these variants to the formation):
Annhilator: hull las, maybe mm sponsons. Mostly garbage pure anti-tank; best used castling in your dz. Only put the sponsons on if you really need to advance(objective based missions and you are fielding a pure armoured company force), sponson flamers could be decent in this case as well for a more generalist objective clearing tank.

Conquerer: leave it at home. Seriously this thing is just garbage; for the same price you can get 5 scions and a taurox with battlecannon and autocannon. It is technically not a heavy vehicle so it suffers the same issues as the mbt and demolisher when trying to fire all weapons on the move. Moving 12" isn't worth it when you have such a poor main gun and cannot bring the rest of the guns to bear effectively while firing it on the move. The only thing it could be good at is to give your opponent a forward target, but once they know how useless it is beyond that they are just going to ignore it.

FW Vanquisher: take the co-axial stubber; it may not damage your tanks preferred targets, but it will make darn sure your main gun does. Beast hunter shells are also a must no matter what opponents you are facing.

Re: Manticore barrage weapons, remember that the manticore's Storm Eagle rockets have rules saying that they can never be fired indirectly, ditto the Deathstrike.

Directly.

They cannot fire directly.

Sorry, yes, I meant directly.

I am sorry, that seemed to have come off a little strong; I was at work coming back from a cigarette break and posted quickly. It was meant just as a minor correction.

AstraVlad wrote:


By the way, with new artillery formation I'm very tempted to replace my Russes with it, at least partially. To be able to throw S9, AP3, "Ignores Cover!", twin-linked large blasts anywhere at the table is just totally insane.

You can already do that with artillery carriages, which are harder to remove (T7 from shooting attacks, many ablative wounds) and MUCH cheaper. You can give them any orders from your officers too.

But if you're trying to play a themed armored cav list, I understand.

I am a very strong believer in the plasma sponson eradicator - doubly so now that Enginseers are not only useful but compulsory in the formations. With POTMS a brace of them can threaten a huge ammount of targets and reliably remove at least one component of their surivability. The are quite possibly the *only* true multi role unit in the guard codex that isn't emasculated by the ordnance rules.

Alone amongst my meta I use a non pask punisher tank commander, because i'm convinced that point for point he's actually better.

Give Captain Generic a punisher and plasma sponsons and you're dropping only one mathhammer centurion wound, ( 20 * .67 * .17 ) = 2.244 rending against ( 2 * .61 * .83 ) = 1.026 single target plasma, but anywhere between 2-6 times that with anything less than maximum 2 inch spread, and the added bonus of forcing your enemy to spread out .

Adding hb sponsons to Pask gives you a 230 pt model which will *still* struggle to pay back points against his primary targets i.e. chaff, and dies just as easily as the guy rocking plasma cannons on, for example, the drop battlesuit squads that will be sent after him. Sure pask is a credible threat to certain armour, but i'd suggest if that his 30 pts extra are better spent in preventing that from happening in the first place, i.e. meltas on the TC or plasma sponsons on his eradicator buddy.

The LRBT is, in my opinion, a waste of points. S8 Ap3 is nice and all, but before including it over one of the more specialised versions ask yourself if you'd not rather have two of them firing from all round a14 that's *immune to grav* using vengeance weapon batteries for only 10 points more.

I generally find the full lightbulb executioner is the most credible threat in a properly multi-task army, simply due to the psychological impact that it represents to your opponent, and of course the ferocious amount of wounds it can throw at anything up to and including a wraithknight. If your community holds that preferred enemy applies to gets hot then 2-3 of these with kurov's aquilla in a chimera will quite frankly roll over anything beyond super duper coversaves.

The single most nasty variant however, is the Armoured Company (IA1 V2) Command *OR* commisar Vanquisher (single tank unlike AM) with the beast killer shells and coax stubber. This turns the already respectable s8 ap2 into, and this is important, *an instant death USR blast* regardless of toughness. Pop on a coax heavy stubber and suddenly you have twin linked as well.

1 alied detachment taking a commisar elite , commander hq and a 6th ed priced demolisher as troops, and suddenly Tau have a serious problem. Drop battlesuits regardless of loadout simply cease to exist (potentially from the other side of the table thanks to a 72 inch range), Riptides have to *think* and the storm surge has to take up quite a lot of cover.

In summary, like everything else in the guard, *specialise* and then *bring 2+ of them*.

maceria wrote:

AstraVlad wrote:


By the way, with new artillery formation I'm very tempted to replace my Russes with it, at least partially. To be able to throw S9, AP3, "Ignores Cover!", twin-linked large blasts anywhere at the table is just totally insane.

You can already do that with artillery carriages, which are harder to remove (T7 from shooting attacks, many ablative wounds) and MUCH cheaper. You can give them any orders from your officers too.

No, you can't. I love Artillery Carriages and have 2 of them but IG (AM) Codex clearly states that: "To issue an order, declare the order your officer is attempting to issue and select a single friendly nonvehicle unit from Codex: Astra
Militarum that is within 12" of the officer". There is no datasheet for Artillery Carriage in the Codex, so you are not allowed to give them any orders. As well as to Elysian troops or Thudd Guns for example.

The only useful thing you can do is to issue ‘Bring it Down!’ order to the IC attached to the artillery to give them Tank Hunters/Minster Hunters USR (because this USRs are shareable) and that's all.

could you fire the guns with those ic?

maceria wrote:

AstraVlad wrote:


By the way, with new artillery formation I'm very tempted to replace my Russes with it, at least partially. To be able to throw S9, AP3, "Ignores Cover!", twin-linked large blasts anywhere at the table is just totally insane.

You can already do that with artillery carriages, which are harder to remove (T7 from shooting attacks, many ablative wounds) and MUCH cheaper. You can give them any orders from your officers too.

But if you're trying to play a themed armored cav list, I understand.

There are a few things people fail to recognize with the arty carriages I think are relevant.

First is morale. They are T7 sure, but each wound causes a 25% break check. There's better odds of that happening than an ap1 weapon exploding a basilisk. Also, blast weapons cause up to 5 wounds against the carriage and poison and sniper weapons wound them. All in all it's about a wash when it comes to durability unless you add a commissar, at which point they are slightly tougher.

The other big trouble is mobility, in that they have none. Moving 6" and firing your Earthshaker is quite nice sometimes and while you can fire indirect if you've got ignores cover why would you want to?

I'd say out of formation hands down, Earthshaker every time. In the wrath formation though I think the basilisk brings about as much to the table and is worth the extra 45 points.

 koooaei wrote:
could you fire the guns with those ic?

I'll say no, because it is not a crewman (BRB says «One crewman that is within 2" of a gun in the Shooting phase can fire it.»). But we can use artillery toughness when making to-wound rolls for this IC («If shooting at an Artillery unit, the Toughness of the guns is always used whilst at least one gun remains» and «While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters»).

the_scotsman wrote:

First is morale. They are T7 sure, but each wound causes a 25% break check. There's better odds of that happening than an ap1 weapon exploding a basilisk

A real problem here is that almost every pen result you can get means that you precious Basilisk stops shooting. Crew Shaken? No shooting. Crew Stunned? No shooting. Weapon Destroyed? 50% chance it will become totally usless for the remainder of the game. And of course if it is Exploded! -- it is gone.

By contrast, you can add a ministorium priest to your artillery and be pretty sure that it will stay until the last man dies. In fact with it's T7 I've found artillery to be much more resilient that it's motorized cousins .

AstraVlad wrote:

The only useful thing you can do is to issue ‘Bring it Down!’ order to the IC attached to the artillery to give them Tank Hunters/Minster Hunters USR (because this USRs are shareable) and that's all.

If you consider the carriages to not be units from codex:AM(I mean, they literally are not, but give me a second), then you cannot issue an order to the lord commissar/primaris psyker attached to them either: he is now a member of a non-codex:AM unit and not a unit on his own.

IA is additions to the codex those units are bought for, any IA unit bought for a codex:AM detachment should be considered a codex:AM unit. If you are using an IA armylist itself... Well IIRC DKoK and Elysians both have you using orders from and like codex:AM.

All boils down to GW Codices are not written with FW rules in mind, they all take a certain amount of adjusting to function.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BRB also very clearly states ICs cannot fire the artillery guns(last sentence of the paragraph below the gun's stat-line).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

If you consider the carriages to not be units from codex:AM(I mean, they literally are not, but give me a second), then you cannot issue an order to the lord commissar/primaris psyker attached to them either: he is now a member of a non-codex:AM unit and not a unit on his own.

It's a good argument and this is one of the unresolved problems GW refuses to fix in FAQ: how should we treat mixed units? Can we issue orders to the Infantry Squad with attached SM Librarian and should he benefit from the effects of this order? And if Lord Commissar joins SM tactical squad? And if Lord Commissar and Librarian join each other «to form a powerful multi-character unit» as BRB says? Today we have no clear answer. In our club we decided that orders can be issued to any IG units and ICs because they are still a part of the chain of command and must obey their commander's orders (yes it is backstory based and not a pure RAW), but any non-IG unit or IC they are attached to do not benefit directly from the orders effect (e.g. a Librarian can not run and shoot with IG Infantry Squad by ‘Forwards, for the Emperor!’ order and his Leadership can not be used for a Leadership test to receive this order). In other clubs people use different approaches.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

IA is additions to the codex those units are bought for, any IA unit bought for a codex:AM detachment should be considered a codex:AM unit.

It could be a reason to issue orders to IA units if Codex said that you can issue orders to "Astra Militarium units". All IA units are assigned a battle role in IG (AM) army so you were able to command them. But in this question everything is written very straightforward: "unit from Codex: Astra Militarum". So, if there is no such units in Codex -- officers taken from this Codex can not command said units. Pure RAW.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

AstraVlad wrote:

The only useful thing you can do is to issue ‘Bring it Down!’ order to the IC attached to the artillery to give them Tank Hunters/Minster Hunters USR (because this USRs are shareable) and that's all.

If you consider the carriages to not be units from codex:AM(I mean, they literally are not, but give me a second), then you cannot issue an order to the lord commissar/primaris psyker attached to them either: he is now a member of a non-codex:AM unit and not a unit on his own.

IA is additions to the codex those units are bought for, any IA unit bought for a codex:AM detachment should be considered a codex:AM unit. If you are using an IA armylist itself... Well IIRC DKoK and Elysians both have you using orders from and like codex:AM.

All boils down to GW Codices are not written with FW rules in mind, they all take a certain amount of adjusting to function.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BRB also very clearly states ICs cannot fire the artillery guns(last sentence of the paragraph below the gun's stat-line).

That's fine, and then you're paying 20 points for the ability to move and be twin-linked, and the ability to be immune to poison, sniper etc. Plus see below RE how sketchy ordering the arty carriage is.

the_scotsman wrote:

That's fine, and then you're paying 20 points for the ability to move and be twin-linked, and the ability to be immune to poison, sniper etc. Plus see below RE how sketchy ordering the arty carriage is.

Of course, everything depends on your meta. If you face a lot of poison and sniper shots may be you will be happy with Basilisks. But if you suffer from the abundance of melta and grav-weapons used against you (that is just my case) -- artillery carriages are the way to go.

This is an interesting question. What we've gotten into here is artillery carriage vs basilisk, but I think another thing to talk about is artillery of both types vs a russ.

The artillery is vulnerable to small arms shooting and s6 shots to the front. Because it can fire indirectly, it makes sense to keep these big guns away from the front line behind some LoS blocking terrain.

Can the same be said for the russ? Of course not. With shorter range guns and no barrage rules, these need to be more forward than the artillery. The upside to this is that they have more substantial armor and more reliable guns. That said, their protection is equivalent when you deal with grav and krak grenades. So how can the russ make up for these deficiencies?

Astravlad: there is no need for an FAQ for "mixed units" because there is no such thing.

An IC joined to a unit becomes a member of that unit for all rules purposes. Faction is absolutely a rules purpose.

So in this situation you have an IG model joining a SM unit; that model is now simply a member of a SM unit. The identity of the unit is not changed, and while the lord commissar is still an IG model, he is now a member of a SM unit. Anything that effects SM units will effect the lord commissar, anything that effects IG units will have no effect at all on any member of the SM unit(IG model included).

As to your second point: very little of the game can be taken at a pure RAW stance and function, doubly so for introducing anything from FW(which the RAW was not at all written for or including).

Now on top of that we have the factions; there are 2 sets of faction: the individual codex(codex:AM) and the overarch in some cases(Armies of the Imperium for alliance matrix). Units from Codex:AM doesn't limit itself to only the units found in that book; it is units of the AM faction. A unit put out in a White Dwarf that is a Faction AM unit would also count as a Codex:AM unit for the purposes of those rules(looted Wagon is an Ork example that has already happened).